Reflection: this forum is now in the 21st century

Posted by: daddycool on 03 May 2008

Reflective mode on:

I must admit that reading the forum over the past week has been very interesting, perhaps even more interesting than ever before.

In my view this forum is now in the 21st century and let me explain why I feel that way.

Before we were discussing spinning CDs (CD5x vs. CD5) and vinyl records (What cartridge for my Rega deck?). There were amp choices (72/hi/250 vs. new 202/Napsc/200) and speaker choices (Spendor vs. Neat, Naim speakers or not).

Of course we had members discussing Squeezeboxes and DACs, but I always felt that was looked upon as some nice extra, much in the way Naim owners also have Tivoli radios in the kitchen.

Then came NaimNet, but after the n-Vi, I gathered this was looked upon as some other distant niche. I guess there are not many custom install customers on the forum, as custom install takes away the fun of the selecting and installing yourself hobby this forum is about. It wasn't clear right away what impact NaimNet would have on stereo business as usual.

And then came the HDX and opened Pandoras Box. All of a sudden it was now clear that Naim was going beyond vinyl and CD. I found it very interesting to see what reactions this provoked and I woudl like to share my following comments:

1. The HDX is really a new generation source much in the same way as the CD players. Actaully, my parents are in the market for a new system and I would advice them this bulletproof solution. The price is comparable to the CDX2 upwards sources, and with the HDX I see no point for my parents to bother with CDs anymore.

2. As a Mac user I am sad that Naim has chosesn NetStream and DigiFi solutions, because it locks them in to propriety WIndows solutions and file formats. A combination of .wav + mp3 for the tags is not my Mac way of doing things.
NetStream brings a Windows interface. There are disproportionally many Mac owners among the Naim owners I read in market reserach posted here last year.
Furthermore I am a big supporter of open file formats and open source software, so I would have preferred FLAC and Linux. That said, I understand that Naim has chosen these partners to get their new product lines of the ground, and MS isn't going to roll over and die. And there is the next point:

3. The HDX is about a systems approach to a listening experience, a black box, not about operating systems, file formats etc. And here we see a clash with those Naim owners that want to "produce" the music themselves (create their equivalent of a CD and LP) by ripping and storing the music themselves. These users are calling for a Naim DAC, much in the way Naim had brought us Stagelines and Headlines. We can fiddles with the turntables and phones, and Naim gives us a box we can use to connect it to our Naim system.

4. In conclusion, I think Naim has two target markets here. The fire-and-forget customers who simply want to replace CD players with a HD solution. And the customers who want solutions for their computer based music collections.

So much more to say but I'll leave it at that. I am looking forward to your views. Interesting times ahead. (Me I am looking forward to both a HD5x and a DACline)

Computer has met stereo big time, this forum is now in the 21st century Smile Reflective mode off.
Posted on: 04 May 2008 by daddycool
quote:
Originally posted by abbydog:
Sorry, I may be being deliberately thick here but I don't understand this. Ripping CDs appears equivalent to time shifting, ditto streaming/downloads. And since I can only listen to one piece of music at a time, how does carrier-less help?


Hi abbydog, what can I say?

IMO music from a hard disc drive is new type of source as compared to carrier-based sources as vinyl, compact cassette and CD.

Feel free to differ, it's a discussion thread.
Posted on: 04 May 2008 by daddycool
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Kelly:
To some extent I think that where one stands on this is dependent on age, willingness/desire to immerse oneself in new technologies and learn a new technical vocabulary and how great one's investment is in the current technolgy, whether analogue, digital or both.


I see your point Chris.
As stated, I would most certainly advise my parents -who have no interest in technology - to buy the HDX. It will give them the advantage of not having to fiddle around with CDs anymore, no need for storing CDs in a cupboard, just plain old push-a-button use of new technology. Perfect, win-win.

Two problems for me:
1. I don't have their budget and
2. I like more control over my machines and digging into technology.
Posted on: 04 May 2008 by abbydog
quote:
IMO music from a hard disc drive is new type of source as compared to carrier-based sources as vinyl, compact cassette and CD.


So this is akin to making a cassette of an LP? I've been copying CDs to a hard disc in a Yamaha CDR for five years or so? Is this new or different to that?

(BTW, enjoying the discussion!)
Posted on: 04 May 2008 by daddycool
quote:
Originally posted by abbydog:
(BTW, enjoying the discussion!)


Same here. But you know, I wrote a whole thesis on this last year so I have a different starting point I guess. If you care to read it, you can find it here.
Posted on: 04 May 2008 by abbydog
Ahhh, your thesis. Not only did I read it last year, I loved it. I have been engaged for the past three years on making decisions about the future direction of my industry (newspaper publishing), which is facing digital and online challenges and a transformation to multimedia. So you see, it was quite remarkably helpful to me.

The parallels and contrasts between the music and print industries are quite fascinating at the moment as its quite important we don't end up being 'Ipodded'.

We, at least, realise that we are in a content business, not a plastic disc distribution business! Funny, I never expected 20-odd years ago my hobby (music) and my career would collide in quite the way they have.
Posted on: 05 May 2008 by James Lehmann
quote:
Originally posted by daddycool:
In conclusion, I think Naim has two target markets here. The fire-and-forget customers who simply want to replace CD players with a HD solution. And the customers who want solutions for their computer based music collections.

And they don't seem to have addressed either of them with the HDX - saddled as it is with limited storage and a PC-type interface.

OTOH a product like the SuperNait looks much more appealing for Mac-owners and is surely the way forward rather than bringing out bespoke digital boxes that go out-of-date in the time it takes to install them. The SuperNait model is surely a blueprint for a high-end separate pre-amp with a digital input, and hopefully Naim will have the foresight to fit a AES-EBU XLR socket for digital input and wordclock BNC - these are the achilles heels of built-in S/P-DIF or TOS-link digital MacBook outputs, but easily overcome with a decent Firewire D-A converter like Metric Halo or Lavry.

If/when Apple upgrade iTunes to a professional-level music database (ie correct PQ codes, track gaps, etc) it's game-over for stand-alone hard-disc boxes, as it already is for most of us Naim-o-phile Mac users.
Posted on: 05 May 2008 by Guido Fawkes
quote:
saddled as it is with .... a PC-type interface.


I keep reading comments like this - does the HDX use underlying Windoze technology or any other general purpose OS or does it use software specifically crafted for the purpose of playing music? The problem for me is if uses underlying Microsoft technology then I prefer to give it miss, if it uses Naim custom software then I'd be far more interested - though I'm in no rush.

I agree with comments saying HD technology is archaic, which doesn't mean to say it should not be used. If I have anything important on my Mac then I back it up to CD or DVD; my music collection is far more important to me than any of documents or programs I write. The good thing about music is it already comes on CD without me having to download and burn it to CD myself. If it came down to HD would I remember to back it up (or can you just download it again for no additional charge - sorry I've no idea how this works). HDs move and moving parts fail more often than other parts - if a CD mechanism fails then at least I haven't lost my music collection. I know the HDX uses mirrored discs, but if somebody broke in to my house and stole it then all my music collection would go too. When years ago somebody stole my CD player, at least I still had my music collection.

I do see the ability to get hold of music in higher resolution is attractive, but to be useful my favourite artists need to release music in such a format, there should be no premium for buying that format and I need convincing that it really sounds better and is not another red herring like SACD or DVD-A.

ATB Rotf

BTW I thoroughly recommend reading daddycool's excellent and insightful thesis.
Posted on: 05 May 2008 by Ears
quote:
Originally posted by Warren:
For many serious potential purchaser won't the real question be where it fits into the Naim hierachy? i.e. does it match up to a CDX2 or CDS3 etc?


Yes, let's find out how it PLAYS, then we'll be able to make better judgments about value for money and compatibility with computers. I think we have to put into context the issues of how it STORES and INDEXES when we know how much we are asked to pay for these items.
Posted on: 05 May 2008 by PeterZ
quote:
Originally posted by ROTF:
quote:
saddled as it is with .... a PC-type interface.

I keep reading comments like this - does the HDX use underlying Windoze technology


Yep. From the DigiFi website:

"Our chosen operating system is Windows XP embedded – it's robust, well supported, and allows for rapid development cycles"
Posted on: 06 May 2008 by daddycool
So will it catch a virus?
Posted on: 06 May 2008 by Guido Fawkes
Hi Peter

Thanks for the info

Unfortunately that just about kills any interest I had in a music server.

It's CD and vinyl for me.

ATB Rotf
Posted on: 06 May 2008 by paremus
So much as I'm anti Microsoft / Pro Apple - this is irrelevant. The only thing I'm really care about is the musical capabilities of the HDX. If it delivers - I'll happy reload the OS / run required patches. Just as others are happy to tinker with their tonearms or put new screws in their LP12's.
Posted on: 06 May 2008 by Guido Fawkes
quote:
So much as I'm anti Microsoft / Pro Apple - this is irrelevant

No it's not.

However, no reason for you not to buy one Smile
Posted on: 06 May 2008 by u5227470736789439
quote:
Originally posted by paremus:
... The only thing I'm really care about is the musical capabilities of the HDX. If it delivers - I'll happy reload the OS / run required patches. Just as others are happy to tinker with their tonearms or put new screws in their LP12's.


Dear Paremus,

I am hoping that this will reduce the chance [or need, depending on view-point] for opperator tinkering! I remember when I was young, I used to delight in tuning the engine in the Austin Mini Pick-up that was the farm working vehicle. Even in those days I could get phenomenal fuel economy out of it, and there was a certain pride in adjusting the carburettor for good fuel economy and fine tickover. Adjusting the ignition timing so that the vehicle would pull up a hill like a train. Maintaining the ignition breaker [and condensor] so that the vehicle would start easily and never miss. I enjoyed the fiddle.

Now I have a car [just layed off the road, possibly permanently] where all I can do is change the spark plugs, keep the sump oil changed, and fill the radiator up the water. It actually runs effortlessly after 130,000 miles. Mind you it is a Volvo, so probably only half worn.

How boring in comparison, but how much better the car engines run these days with automatic tuning based on emission monitoring, rather than a feel for the tone of the beat of the engine, and careful examination of fuel consumption. You can tell how well an engine is running from the colour of the spark plugs and the colour in the exhaust pipe, but not now with catalytic converters!

One of the reasons I am not so fond of the vinyl system is the constant need to be fiddling with worn cartridges and so on. And a new or refurbished cartridge is not cheap and something that needs addressing every one or two years, with a good deal of use.

George
Posted on: 06 May 2008 by paremus
George,

Agree with the sentiment. Though some people enjoy the hands-on side of the hobby - and thats fine; truth is I probably would if I had more time. But I don't, so my interest is driven by potential performance and convenience - in that order.

I also find it strange that people qualify out an interesting new product - purely on the basis of the embedded OS used, or the fact it uses internal hard disks, or whatever.

At the appropriate point I'll be dragging my CDSII along to a dealer, and doing the only test that counts.


Cheers

Richard
Posted on: 06 May 2008 by u5227470736789439
Dear Richard,

I ran a CDS2 for six years, and it is a lovely player. Just before I [unwillingly] parted with it, I had it serviced. Apparently it is exremely rare to find the hinge worn out!

And I also want to have the chance to have a proper listen to the HDX! I would love one if it sounds right, which I imagine is very likely!

George
Posted on: 06 May 2008 by pcstockton
quote:
Originally posted by daddycool:


4. In conclusion, I think Naim has two target markets here. The fire-and-forget customers who simply want to replace CD players with a HD solution. And the customers who want solutions for their computer based music collections.



Well put. Pretty much sums IT ALL up.

I happen to be in the FLAC-to-DAC (as i call it) camp, and would prefer an external DAC that Naim develops to work well with this application.

If they can make a DAC that works great in a CDP, they must be able to make a great external USB DAC that interfaces in this fashion.

No matter what, I would not and cannot buy an HDX, i wouldn't even consider it.

But it is not a big deal really, contrary to other conversations I have had in other threads. I will simply find the best external DAC I can.

I thought about it the other night, and came to the conclusion that LP replay is of quintessential importance to the Naim world, yet Naim doesn't make a TT. Nor does anyone seem to clamor for one.

I suppose those wanting a Naim DAC are in the same boat.

In the final analysis, if Naim doesn't think they want to make an External DAC (at the present time), how is that any different from what is the most important source to most, the TT.

I suspect we will just have to be happy with one of the following:
-Supernait
-N-Vi
-HDX
-Naim-net
-External DAC/SB/Sonos/etc, etc, etc....
Posted on: 08 May 2008 by daddycool
Good luck on your DAC hunt, pcstockton, let us know what you find.
Posted on: 08 May 2008 by pcstockton
quote:
Originally posted by daddycool:
Good luck on your DAC hunt, pcstockton, let us know what you find.

Daddycool,

Will do...

I am currently using the Beresford.

I have access to demo the "stock" Benchmark, plus a couple of levels of mods on the Benchmark from Empirical Audio. It is a miracle, Steve from EA is only 30 minutes from me.

Steve's suggestion to me was to buy a Benchmark, and then get mods from him as funds permit.

Check out his site if you haven't ever. He has his thumb on the pulse of EXACTLY what I, and many others, are trying to achieve.

I cannot effectively review the Bereford yet, as I have no other comparison that the DACs present in my Yamaha HT receiver.
Posted on: 08 May 2008 by gary1 (US)
PC be careful with the external DAC search. I have listened to a few and have not been overly impressed thus far. The PS Audio was touted as really good and fantastic if you start adding the cullen mods which you cannot demo. I did not like the PS Audio by itself which was $995 USD. The Bel Canto DAC3 was far superior at $2495 played through a BC system 2 REF1000 mono amps. Nice sound, but fell way short on the emotional aspects of the music IMO. Did not play through my Naim system however. When you start buying stock and add mods your now spending alot more $$ when waiting for the right product may make more sense, esp if you like your inexpensive Beresford right now.