Why now HDD?

Posted by: HansW on 24 April 2008

Naim have just lainched the HDX, Linn recently launched their SD products. Several other 'high-end' companies are also launching HD-players.


But wy now? Why not 5 or 10 years ago? Has there been a technology breakthrough? Hard Drives have been around for ages as have mp-3 players. What has happened to suddenly allow for high quality audio performance from these products?

Anyone know?

Puzzled

Hans
Posted on: 25 April 2008 by Chris Kelly
I think that would be a mac, ROTF!

Pedantically yours

Chris

PS As a Macist, do you agree though? If I run XP under Parallels on my Mac is lack of Mac compatibility an issue?
Posted on: 25 April 2008 by James Lehmann
quote:
Originally posted by Don Phillips:
In my youth, when I set up home or moved, the first thing I installed after a bed, was my hifi.

I always did it the other way around - hi-fi went in first so I could listen to music while organising the rest of the furniture!

Actually, I still do this come to think of it - does this make me still stuck 'in my youth'?
Posted on: 25 April 2008 by u5227470736789439
Last thing taken down: the music. First thing assembled: the music.

Some us are mad enough to do this, beside us two I expect! Good reason for not running an active system!

Fancy how quick it would be with this new machine!

George
Posted on: 25 April 2008 by Huwge
quote:
Originally posted by ROTF:

My assumption is the Naim HDX will be a giant step forward in sound quality for this medium, if not there's no point.


Also that there is no need to connect it a computer network - don't mind it as option, but don't want to have to use it that way.

ATB Rotf


It certainly sounds as if it might be in that territory, with the extra PS

I think you need some sort of OS / Internet connectivity for the track listings and album art - not clear from the blurb EDIT: It says" eine leicht bedienbare Windows-Anwendung," so that will be Windows then / EDIT I picked up. There is reference to Naim-Desktop-Client, but no sense of the platform you might need to run this. It would be really tidy if it could be made to work with an iPod touch as the controller.

Huw
Posted on: 25 April 2008 by Chris Kelly
That would be good. "Darling, I want to upgrade my nano to a touch. It's coming with a free Naim box this month only!"
Posted on: 25 April 2008 by Rockingdoc
quote:
Originally posted by ROTF:
My assumption is the Naim HDX will be a giant step forward in sound quality for this medium, if not there's no point.

ATB Rotf


I'm afraid nobody is claiming it can sound better than a CDX2 at this point
Posted on: 25 April 2008 by Huwge
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Kelly:
That would be good. "Darling, I want to upgrade my nano to a touch. It's coming with a free Naim box this month only!"

Smile

"and 600 CDs will disappear from the shelves. Don't you just love Apple. So you won't mind if I buy another lens now."

OK - I guess I might be chancing my arm there.
Posted on: 25 April 2008 by Huwge
quote:
Originally posted by Rockingdoc:
quote:
Originally posted by ROTF:
My assumption is the Naim HDX will be a giant step forward in sound quality for this medium, if not there's no point.

ATB Rotf


I'm afraid nobody is claiming it can sound better than a CDX2 at this point


I am, having heard it this morning
Posted on: 25 April 2008 by Chris Kelly
Lenses slip easily into the Billingham! Winker

Black boxes on the Fraim are a bit less subtle!
If I could say that all 4000 cds would go then I might be in a stronger negotiating position!

How long would it take to rip 600 CDs to the HDX?
Posted on: 25 April 2008 by Huwge
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Kelly:
Lenses slip easily into the Billingham! Winker


Especially a 555

quote:

How long would it take to rip 600 CDs to the HDX?


Forgot to ask - may go back tomorrow or Sunday if I can get a couple of spare hours
Posted on: 25 April 2008 by abbydog
quote:
I am just old fashioned enough to like to make my playlists on the fly - each disc played prompts another, dependent on mood and circumstances. As might be expected, I like the weird connections my brain makes as each CD is playing.


Spot on, Adam. Explains a great deal about the problems of interacting with technology in many areas, music being one!
Posted on: 25 April 2008 by Chris Kelly
Got a 555 but it's not a Billingham! Mines a 355. Tan. Great bag!
Posted on: 25 April 2008 by Willy
quote:
Originally posted by Adam Meredith:
- hell, some of you even get out of your chairs to turn over a record.




Not me. I got a chair with wheels on.

Willy.
Posted on: 25 April 2008 by Paul Hutchings
quote:
Originally posted by Adam Meredith:
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_M:
... Possibly high-end companies like Naim have had HD-players for several years but have been waiting for broadband take-up to reach a certain 'tipping point'.


No - we did a HUGE amount of work in this area several years ago. We couldn't, at the time, overcome the problems inherent in getting packets of musical data off a hard disc and then reconstituting it in a satisfactory manner.


Adam, not disputing the barriers you ran into but I'm curious what kind of problems if you don't mind me asking?

Ignoring issues around getting the music on the hard drive to start with, once the data is on the hard drive I don't see why there should be a problem given that at that point it's just data?
Posted on: 25 April 2008 by gary1 (US)
agree with jcs smith. Naim should have released a less expensive version first I'd defnitely be interested in evaluating and possible to purchase. As I've said on other threads I don't want to also lose access to internet radio, music channels, rhapsody that I've really enjoy. Not sure about this embedded server thing and do you need to send it to naim if there is a problem or if the drive fails as I did not see a place to pop out drives. I think we should let servers do their things attached to an APC on their own and pay for the quality music. Windows home server 1.5TB with back-up and other functionality for $700 USD. Leaves me alot of money to pay for electronic equipment not that I would spend the $10k.
Posted on: 25 April 2008 by Guido Fawkes
quote:
PS As a Macist, do you agree though? If I run XP under Parallels on my Mac is lack of Mac compatibility an issue?


Hi Chris

I use Parallels - if you have XP running under Parallels then you can run pretty much any Windoze program you may need. Of course you must take all the normal precautions with Windoze - AV and so on. If you are Paranoid like me you have a pristine XP with all the patches and use a copy which you destroy are recreate for each session (I do this with Virtual PC on PPC Mac) - takes 2 minutes. I use Parallels to run Amiga OS on my MacBook Pro.

Does the Naim HDX require a PC? My hope was it was a self contained unit. My concern would be if, and I'm convinced it doesn't, the Naim HDX used embedded Windows because then a virus could move from the PC to the HDX (not sure what it could do). ATM machines in a large non-UK bank were infected in this way a few years ago.

I'm still of the view it is easier to stick on a CD or a record, but if the HDX outperformed my existing kit significantly then I would be interested. Think I'll let lots of other folk try it out first though.

ATB Rotf
Posted on: 25 April 2008 by Chris Kelly
Thanks ROTF

I do the computer malarkey all bloody day. One of the joys of coming home is to sit down and enjoy the stand-alone, non-computer dependent Naim kit playing whatever CD i choose to put into the 555 so I'm also going to wait a while.
Posted on: 25 April 2008 by HansW
This is what I was expecting: that there must have been some technological breakthrough. A few years ago when HDD was dsiscussed the problems of noisy harddrives and computer environments always came up. Now Lin seem to have managed to get better sound from a computer than they can from a CD transport.

If the 'tipping point' was market size why can suddebnly a dozen or more suppliers find it worth their while to launch these products now when none sis 12 months ago?

I do personnaly not see myself as an early adopter but if sound quality can compete with CD and the user interface is really good I would gladly buy when, rip my CD's (and perhaps some LP's ) and enjoy the music.

Hans

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Adam Meredith:

No - we did a HUGE amount of work in this area several years ago. We couldn't, at the time, overcome the problems inherent in getting packets of musical data off a hard disc and then reconstituting it in a satisfactory manner.

Other projects then both took R&D time and suggested solutions.
I imagine that certain aspects of computer hardware have improved over the years to allow solutions to succeed in the terms we define.

QUOTE]
Posted on: 25 April 2008 by Adam Meredith
It is my, limited and not very motivated, understanding that the signal comes off a CD in a continuous stream. Information comes off the HD in packets - which need to be reconstructed into a stream to produce music that sounds correct. I imagine, as you will, that, as such, it requires an intermediate stage in which the bursts are joined together while maintaining all timing information and then outputted as a stream.

Data and music have different storage and retrieval requirements. Timing is of the essence in music - data need not concern itself with much more than gross order and is only casually concerned with fine timing.
Posted on: 25 April 2008 by ken c
i wonder what next? "downloadable hardware"?

anyhow, hdx seems to be in tune with the times...
i think i am interested...

enjoy
ken
Posted on: 26 April 2008 by prowla
quote:
Originally posted by Adam Meredith:
It is my, limited and not very motivated, understanding that the signal comes off a CD in a continuous stream. Information comes off the HD in packets - which need to be reconstructed into a stream to produce music that sounds correct. I imagine, as you will, that, as such, it requires an intermediate stage in which the bursts are joined together while maintaining all timing information and then outputted as a stream.

Data and music have different storage and retrieval requirements. Timing is of the essence in music - data need not concern itself with much more than gross order and is only casually concerned with fine timing.
I think the issue with CD is that the stream has to be read in precise time, whereas the advantage of HD (and solid state, and data CD) is that it can be read asynchronously, and buffered.
The disks of today are easily capable of serving the data at the required rates (after all, they can do video!).
The data can then be read from the buffer under the control of the timing circuit, to produce a more precise audio output.
The timing circuit should have an easier life than with CD audio, as it doesn't have to sync to the reading of a bitstream from the media, and can essentially view the data as on tap.
Posted on: 26 April 2008 by Adam Meredith
quote:
Originally posted by prowla:
I think the issue with CD is that the stream has to be read in precise time, whereas the advantage of HD (and solid state, and data CD) is that it can be read asynchronously, and buffered.


Or - the complete opposite of what I thought.

I suppose it just shows what I know (or want to know) about all this.
Posted on: 26 April 2008 by rupert bear
quote:
Originally posted by Adam Meredith:

and then outputted as a stream.



output
Posted on: 26 April 2008 by Adam Meredith
input

output /"aUtpUt/ v.t. Infl. -tt-. Pa. t. & pple -put, (sense 4 also) -putted.ME. [In branch I f. OUT- + PUT v.1 In branch II f. the n.]

1 Expel, eject, dismiss. Long obs. exc. Sc. ME. <unknown>

2 Fraudulently circulate (false coin) as legal tender. Sc. M16–E18.<unknown>

3 Provide (men) for military service. Only in M17.II

4 Produce, deliver, or supply as output. M19.
Posted on: 26 April 2008 by gary1 (US)
prowla, intersting comments as I just posted on another thread about this issue. As I under stand this intermediate stage is where other companies are going, combined with your own separate NAS. So whereas Naim have combined all aspects, others are going separate and removing the NAS, processing, and DAC into separates. Naim have chosen to control all aspects in their one "box". We'll have to wait and see sounds better. The former seems more flexible and I am not really in favor of having computers as part of my musical equipment with inherent problems of heat, etc... The HDx needs to be serviced by Naim in case of drive issues and I don't want to pay Naim for a computer and want to spend my money on the electronics and music at whatever price point you choose.