UHES interesting day out to hear some distributed audio

Posted by: Guido Fawkes on 10 October 2008

I was not able to stay for the whole day, but for some very enjoyable hours. Thank you to Norman, Ian and Ian’s mum for their hospitality and organising an interesting event. Those present were JN, RL, JH and me - it was very good to meet some fellow forum members.

We compared several digital players using the Beatles Get Back from the Love album and a Kate Bush track from Aerial. The players I heard included the Sneaky, Majik, Accurate, CD5i, CD5X, CD5X-FC2, CDX2, MacLavry 16 and MacLavry 24.

The system in which these players were tried used a NAC552 into some Adam active speakers with built-in power amps. How much this influenced my perception I cannot say, but all things were equal. I didn’t get to hear the HDX on this occasion.

From my perspective it was just about which player I liked the most. Others are far better at describing differences. There’s also a psychological element of being with very pleasant company and sharing views. Mine is an opinion I think was not inconsistent with others, but please wait from them to post to read their views. Also take in to account that I use a system that I chose carefully to suit my budget and favoured presentation of music that in itself may colour my judgement.

So I shall definitely be keeping, using and enjoying my CDX2. Of the players we tried it was the clear winner for me. There is no implication that the other players were bad, far from it. But the CDX2 just made me listen more intently, got my foot tapping the most, made me want to join in and sing-a-long (I didn’t as that would have spoiled it for everybody). So for my particular taste I feel lucky that I have the player that best suits me.

So if I wasn’t allowed the CDX2 then what would I choose. Well without any doubt it is the CD5X, I’m not sure I’d want the FC2 in the context of this set-up. Again I’ve heard this player a fair few times and always liked it and so my continued liking of this machine is no surprise.

And in third place, as a main player, I would have to put the CD5i. It’s presentation reminds me of the Rega Apollo. These players do not sound the same, but they share something that makes it easy to enjoy the way they play music.

For a second system to sit in my small office then the Sneaky is certainly an option. I thought this player was good value and fun to listen to. It doesn’t completely suit though because I would need to drive it from a hard-disk store across a computer network, but it would be hard not to like it. It does what it sets out to do very well without ever threatening seriously good sub £1k CD players like the CD5i or Rega Apollo IMHO.

I preferred MacLavry when the Mac was set to output in 24-bit mode rather than 16-bit mode, which is odd because the CD that supplied the music for ripping was, of course, 16-bit. This combination certainly produced an acceptable sound and I would again suggest it is good value for money. It is not quite the office system I’m looking for, but I can easily understand why so many folk like it. It is very smooth in its presentation. I found I preferred the MacLavry to any of the Linn DS players.

So all in all a very interesting day - what did I learn? Well I re-affirmed that I have a system at home that is very right for me. I also learned there are other viable choices that are highly enjoyable if different from what I have grown into. It is a good situation and to be honest you can’t really lose. You just choose whichever suits you best and enjoy the music.

The only time I didn’t enjoy what I was hearing was when it was playing music that I didn’t personally like - ironically that was with the very best player I heard, but was not used in the comparative tests.

Sorry that is the best I can do fo a write-up; no doubt some will say they could have predicted I would prefer the CDX2, but that is the way it turned out - I am nothing if not boringly consistent.

Thanks once again to those who made it an enjoyable day

ATB Rotf
Posted on: 13 October 2008 by Graham Russell
Richard,

I'm not fully "signed up" to the streaming source yet. Right now I don't have a permanent streaming set up. For the last couple of weeks I've had a Sonos ZP90 + remote control to play with. I have found big differences between various flac compression ratios and wav files through the Sonos. The latest ripped wav files sound very close to CD.

Janes N brought round his mac and Lavry to experiment with various sources and options through my 552/500 system. The results were very interesting. I felt the mac mini was possibly being held back by the optical interface. The coax digital output from the Sonos via the Lavry sounded better. Now I seem to be getting better quality rips it would be very interesting to try the Sonos/Lavry combination again Smile

I really like the user interface / ease of use with the Sonos system. If it can be made to sound close to the CD555 then I'll be very happy. The only issue I have with the Sonos is it won't play 24 bit.

I hope that helps.

Graham
Posted on: 13 October 2008 by paremus
Graham

Thanks.

Anyone tried a Van Del Hul Opticoupler instead of the Chord Opticord?

Just a suspicion.

Cheers

Richard
Posted on: 13 October 2008 by Richard Lord
As one of the invited guests, I would like to add my two pence worth.

First of all, I want to thank Norman, Ian and Freda (Ian's Mum) for their very kind hospitality. I have never experienced such kindness whilst visiting a dealer.

Most of you already know I am cloth eared Winker So my comments are of little value. Thus my statement that I did not notice any significant differences between any of the various CDP's and digital streamers is of very little help. There might very well be differences, but they appeared very subtle to my ears. But there was one item of kit which did sound superior to all else I heard. This was a prototype CD player. I do not know who designed it, or for which manufacturer it was intended. It looked an untidy mess, with components scattered around and it was covered in dust and blutack. The thing to note, however, it was designed in 1990. That's right, it was 18 years old! To me, its sound was cream compared to all else that was milk. I loved it. I understand it used silver solder and had resistors that cost £25 each (!) in 1990. Someone suggested that if it were put into production today, using modern chips, it would cost at least £60,000!

I am including a few snaps I took. The bloke on his hands and knees is JN checking out the bass loading of the Adam speaker. Our host, Norman, is the one standing next to the other Adam speaker.

The beautiful view is to show the lovely location of UHES. Worth a visit just to see the view.

JN is leaning over my shoulder as I type this and threatening legal action if I do not remove the pic of his rear end - tough Cool

Seriously, he will be sharing his far more expert thoughts in a couple of days.

ATB

Richard









Posted on: 13 October 2008 by jon h
Richard, we all seem to listen to different things. Heck, we dont even have a consistent vocabulary to describe things! One person's "clear and clean treble" can be another's "chrome plated and hard". And so forth.
Posted on: 14 October 2008 by james n
quote:
It looked an untidy mess, with components scattered around and it was covered in dust and blutack.


Ah that must be the 'sytem injection problem' fix for the HDX Winker
Posted on: 14 October 2008 by Richard Lord
quote:
Originally posted by jon honeyball:
Richard, we all seem to listen to different things. Heck, we dont even have a consistent vocabulary to describe things! One person's "clear and clean treble" can be another's "chrome plated and hard". And so forth.


I so agree, John. Despite my inability to be very helpful in distinguishing subtle differences, I thoroughly enjoyed myself. The intro to "Get Back" on the Beatles Love album is superb. So exciting.

BTW, both JN and myself noticed a huge degradation on my own system when the Internet was connected to the Mac. I use a mains borne data streamer as it works far better and quicker than the more usual wireless router. Once unplugged, the sound was cleaner and far more vibrant. Before disconnection the sound was actually boring.


Richard
Posted on: 14 October 2008 by Richard Lord
quote:
Originally posted by james n:
quote:
It looked an untidy mess, with components scattered around and it was covered in dust and blutack.


Ah that must be the 'sytem injection problem' fix for the HDX Winker


You are being naughty. Big Grin

BTW, I was not able to hear the difference between the HDX being on or off. Everyone else could, so it must just be me. Sadly, someone's comments must have upset it, because it then refused to cooperate. It sadly just sulked in solitary silence for the rest of the day.

Richard
Posted on: 15 October 2008 by J.N.
Apologies for my delayed response. I made it back to Norfolk in the wee hours of today, via vehicular contact with a small deer about two miles from home.

Many thanks to Norman, Ian and Freda of UHES for looking after us so well at their delightfully located dealership.

The MacLavry combo (kindly supplied by Richard) is cracking v.f.m. and we found it to fit somewhere in between CD5i and CD5X in terms of performance in the very revealing system used (Naim 552 pre-amp and superb £22k active Adam Tensor loudspeakers).

The Linn Sneaky is also excellent v.f.m. producing a perfectly acceptable sound. The mid-range (Majik or Akurate?) DS devices sounded much better, and the Klimax, very good indeed - though I preferred Naim's 555 CD player.

Two 555 power supplies on the CD555 was very interesting. It seems to give the sound something of a kick, but was generally felt to 'chrome plate' (to use JHs good description) the sound. For me the sound was more Hi-Fi, but somehow less musically cohesive.

To round off the CDPs, the aforementioned aged, prototype machine with which some of you will be familiar as the 'Blutack Wonder' then infuriatingly (as I own one) blew the 555 out of the water.

The Naim HDX was unfortunately found to have a deleterious effect upon the sound quality of other components when connected, but this problem is being addressed. Unfortunately, it fell over; refusing to do its thing and play any music, so we couldn't rate it.

Following an excellent meal at a local hostelry, Ian cranked up the Scottish gramophone and as Jon has said, the 453 ohm air-plug in the Superline sounded clearly better than its normal plug counterpart.

A truly wonderful sound from vinyl. The Superline is a bit special.

So thanks again to Ian and Norman of UHES for a most enjoyable day with top class equipment and hospitality.

John.
Posted on: 15 October 2008 by Harry H. Wombat
quote:

BTW, both JN and myself noticed a huge degradation on my own system when the Internet was connected to the Mac. I use a mains borne data streamer as it works far better and quicker than the more usual wireless router. Once unplugged, the sound was cleaner and far more vibrant. Before disconnection the sound was actually boring.


Richard, very interesting. A question if you don't mind: did you have to unplug all of the powerline networking plugs, the ones into the devices and the one into, I suppose, the router? I have 5 of the things and it would be inconvenient to say the least to have to switch them all off (and then back on again). Is the issue only when data is being transferred or do these things ping each other constantly? Having only recently got my NAIM system back up again (thanks to the convenience and quality of the Lavry) after a few boxed years I haven't had the chance myself to test it with the powerline networking on and off to see if my also admittedly cloth ears can tell the difference but I shall certainly experiment now.

This is a tough one for me - I don't want to rely on wireless as I did previously but neither do I want compromised music or the hassle of switching 5 plugs off every time I want to listen!

Other than a dedicated mains spur are there any other options. I have read that NAIM boxes do not like mains conditioning and having read some of the literature can kind of understand why.
Posted on: 15 October 2008 by Richard Lord
quote:
Originally posted by Harry H. Wombat:
quote:

BTW, both JN and myself noticed a huge degradation on my own system when the Internet was connected to the Mac. I use a mains borne data streamer as it works far better and quicker than the more usual wireless router. Once unplugged, the sound was cleaner and far more vibrant. Before disconnection the sound was actually boring.


Richard, very interesting. A question if you don't mind: did you have to unplug all of the powerline networking plugs, the ones into the devices and the one into, I suppose, the router? I have 5 of the things and it would be inconvenient to say the least to have to switch them all off (and then back on again). Is the issue only when data is being transferred or do these things ping each other constantly?


I just unplugged the one in the listening room. My Mac threw up some error about this, so it suggests it might be sending something back and forth constantly - I don't know for sure.

But the difference was very noticeable, even to my ears. JN agreed. I had put something on and it just did not sound right and it was an inspired guess to unplug the Web data streamer.

My advice is to try it for yourself. It might be quite different at your location.

Regards

Richard
Posted on: 15 October 2008 by jon h
Richard,

Network connection over mains is utterly evil and has no place on any sort of hifi system mains system.

Yes, the boxes chatter all the time. And the quantity of data hash noise they add to the mains is scary -- your Naim power supplies then have to remove all of it to stop it getting onto the DC rails.

Do not use them on the same ring as your hifi. The best solution is a long ethernet cable -- you can run 10s of meters with no repeaters required for 100Mb Ethernet. its easy to buy off-the-shelf 30 meter cables, for example.
Posted on: 16 October 2008 by JonR
quote:
Originally posted by J.N.:
The MacLavry combo (kindly supplied by Richard) is cracking v.f.m. and we found it to fit somewhere in between CD5i and CD5X in terms of performance in the very revealing system used (Naim 552 pre-amp and superb £22k active Adam Tensor loudspeakers).


Interesting findings, John - I thought it was supposed to be better than this.

What is the "Blutak Wonder" ?
Posted on: 16 October 2008 by tonym
quote:
Originally posted by JonR:

What is the "Blutak Wonder" ?


I've heard this player on a few occasions now and I could explain exactly what it is - but then I'd have to kill you.
Posted on: 17 October 2008 by J.N.
Hi Jon,

At Steve's place, on a blind test, on his Berning amp and Art Emotion loudspeakers, I preferred the MacLavry sound over my CDX2.

System matching and variability in production samples are pertinent possibilities.

John.
Posted on: 18 October 2008 by Guido Fawkes
quote:
System matching and variability in production samples are pertinent possibilities.


Hi John

I agree - different components perform differently in different systems. So all I can say is that my preferences were in the context of the system we heard - it was a good enjoyable day.

ATB Rotf
Posted on: 26 October 2008 by Rodborough
Hi All

Firstly I must apologise for the delay in responding but it has been surprisingly hectic here of late and I must give John (JN) all of the credit for tirelessly organising this event, it fell to us only to make available our facilities and demonstration equipment.

It was of course great to welcome back both John & Richard Lord and a real treat meeting ROTF and Jon Honeyball for the first time, first of many I hope.

Both Ian I really enjoyed the day and whether by accident or design on JN’s part it was a true cross section of people with different aspirations. It was particularly good that it afforded ROTF the opportunity to be quite sure that past decisions were exactly the right ones for him.

Although it was a very great pity that the HDX failed just before being included in the comparisons, Naim have since collected & returned the unit and discovered a fault on the network socket which had caused the software to crash & lockup, additionally the unit received an upgrade within the power supply to cure the problems experienced when connecting it to our reference system.

I have to say that I was somewhat disappointed by the performance of the Apple/Lavry DA-10 DAC and very grateful to Richard Lord for brining his along. Our Ian together with Jon Honeyball computer “whiz-adults” both, did try their very best to extract the most out of this combination but it fell well short of our expectations. It is a very pleasant combination and my personal observation was that it was not unlike comparing CDX variants to CDS variants the latter providing a sweeter and smoother result; however the Apple/Lavry quite simply lacked the detail, sense of scale of either the CDX or CDS Naim offerings. For all of that an interesting alternative to the Linn Sneaky DS which has become very popular here and can act as a standalone system in another room if the decision is made to later upgrade to an HDX or a Linn DS higher up the range at a later date, so the Sneaky would be my recommendation.

Just as before though with ROTF, Richard was very happy with his choices to date and it was good to read that he together with JN had managed to improve things on his own installation at home.

The star of the day, I think universally was the “blue-tack wonder” playing red book standard CD’s bettered in my view only by the Linn Klimax DS playing HiRes files. Even if it were possible to make a production version of the BTW it would be a very courageous move for any company to consider bringing to market a £60k + Red Book CD Player.

It was a great opportunity for us to test out our demonstration facilities; it will be thankfully rare that it is called upon in future to compare 10 CD Player variants (excluding the BTW) 7 HD based variants plus a PC/DAC all at the same time.

I was also pleased by the positive way in which the ADAM TENSOR Beta’s were received, they serve as alternatives to other active systems where the space is not available or it being undesirable for racks of ancillary black boxes as all the amplification, cross-over’s and power supplies are contained within the loudspeaker, requiring only a pre-amp and source to be found a home for.

Quote:
“The Adam Tensor speakers have many of the positive attributes of active DBLs. And are really most excellent -- I could swap my 6-pack 135s + DBLs and not feel let down. I think, even after 14 hours or more of listening to them, I still prefer the 6-135+DBLs. But given that I am even prepared to discuss in the same paragraph should indicate how good these Adams are.” Jon Honeyball

Praise indeed from “Mr DBL” and that was pretty much what we were looking for from the ADAMs ourselves.

A very big thank you to everyone who came both Ian & I felt we had made new friends and you were all truly great company.

Warmest regards

Norman
Partner - UHES
Posted on: 27 October 2008 by Rodborough
quote:
Hi Norman,
A Nice read ,Sorry i could not make it.
Munch


Hi Munch

I was really sorry you couldn’t make it as well, it was one of those days that was truly joyous, Richard was a particularly good sport, he went on so much about his “cloth ears” I asked people to cut him some slack as after all the guy had never designed anything above 80 hz is whole life, we all rocked with laughter, Richard included and it sort of summed up the spirit of the day, a mixture of ardent listening, fun & thanks to Ian’s mum some really excellent food.

If we don’t get a chance to meet before, perhaps next year with the Norfolk & Suffolk Massive if they will let us back again next year.

Warmest regards

Norman
Partner - UHES
Posted on: 27 October 2008 by Richard Lord
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rodborough:
I have to say that I was somewhat disappointed by the performance of the Apple/Lavry DA-10 DAC and very grateful to Richard Lord for brining his along. Our Ian together with Jon Honeyball computer “whiz-adults” both, did try their very best to extract the most out of this combination but it fell well short of our expectations. It is a very pleasant combination and my personal observation was that it was not unlike comparing CDX variants to CDS variants the latter providing a sweeter and smoother result; however the Apple/Lavry quite simply lacked the detail, sense of scale of either the CDX or CDS Naim offerings.
/QUOTE]

Firstly, again many thanks to both you, Norman and your partner Ian for your superb hospitality. We all had a great time.

Regarding my Mac/Lavry setup, regrettably nobody knew that some settings can be critical. These settings will apparently adversely affect the sound and make a truly significant difference, such differences become important in the context of a high end comparison such as we were doing.

I can truthfully claim deafness as my excuse. Frown But others are telling me that vastly superior performance is achieved when the bandwidth switch is set to Crystal. Likewise when using the Lavry in unbalanced mode with Pin 2 connected to ground (as most are doing when used with Naim kit), the absolute phase switch needs to be set to "invert". This inverts both channels. Sadly neither of these switches were in their optimum positions.

Despite this, all agreed it was nevertheless, a perfectly acceptable sound and stood comparison with similar priced Naim CDP's. Remarkable!

Perhaps another shoot out with the switches in their correct positions might be contemplated.

Just a thought.

Regards

Richard
Posted on: 27 October 2008 by jon h
Richard

For at least one set of comparison when we were listening to 44k cd material i switched the lavry to crystal mode.
Posted on: 27 October 2008 by gary1 (US)
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lord:

Despite this, all agreed it was nevertheless, a perfectly acceptable sound and stood comparison with similar priced Naim CDP's. Remarkable!

Regards

Richard


Richard the DA-10 is priced below the least expensive Naim CDPs by about half. Based upon our listening this is a fair observation, not up to the level of the CD5-i.
Posted on: 27 October 2008 by tonym
Weird, this Lavry thing, and the polarision of opinions.

Mine's (finally) arriving tomorrow so I'll tinker a bit & see how I get on. My positive experiences have been considerably at variance with some other folks on here.
Posted on: 27 October 2008 by DeltaSigma
Actually, Pin 2 should be on hot. There are also some special wiring changes to be made to the XLR->DIN interconnect to accommodate the usage of the cable with Naim equipment (according to Flashback cables, from whom I ordered mine).

As mentioned before, it is true that there is an easily noticeable difference between Crystal and Wide modes with the former being a lot better. But I can't say that I have noticed any major differences between the Normal and Inverted phase settings, although I have not done much comparison between the two (I have left the switch on Invert).
Posted on: 27 October 2008 by DeltaSigma
quote:
Originally posted by tonym:
Weird, this Lavry thing, and the polarision of opinions.


Isn't it? I wonder why? Smile
Posted on: 27 October 2008 by paremus
So mine is also arriving tomorrow. (What a performance Roll Eyes)

I will not be splicing into my main system straight away (a little more modest than yours Tony) - but I'll be working through some of the ripping / replay options and trying to nail down - to my satisfaction (only) - some of the unanswered questions I have; i.e. iTunes v.s. XLD ripping (do I care), Lossless v.s. AIFF (again - do I care), glass versus plastic toslinks etc etc.

Happy to compare notes with interested parties.

Cheers

Richard
Posted on: 27 October 2008 by pylod
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Trotz:
quote:
Originally posted by tonym:
Weird, this Lavry thing, and the polarision of opinions.


Isn't it? I wonder why? Smile


me too. also about the hdx..some speak about 5x performance, some that it beats bare a cds3/555ps..combo...

i think it has quite a lot to do with exceptations and expectations ( with habits and procedures we are used to...with this kind of " no, no,no it can´t be true " questions...

and it is true, that the lavry / mac combo always just seems to loose in dealer enviroment...as i understood has kuma testet the lavry as well, but just over the coax cable with a cd direct output..in that combination it is ok, but not the same as the mac non-adapter optilink solution...at least in my place it is quite clear above cdx2 level...not sure if it surpass a cds3 though...

but in the end it never beats vinyl reproduction and my cds2 didn´t either...