Listening at low volume

Posted by: NJB on 12 January 2019

A possibly stupid question, but it has tweaked my curiosity.  I have been pondering a speaker upgrade for some time.  A mate has thrown me a curveball, in that he knows that I listen at modest volumes, and he says that I am looking at this all wrong.  So, his thinking is that speakers ‘come on song’ at different volume levels.  He says that my Dynaudio Focus 160s might sound great to me, but at a normal listening level of 65dB (I just measured it with an app on my phone) then they are nowhere near clearing their throat.  Thus, any change/upgrade might not show much improvement.  Do people agree with this thinking?  I have found threads citing various speakers that are better at low volumes, and I guess Dynaudio is not the first name to think of (even though I am a fully signed up supporter of their punchy but tuneful sound). I guess my Naim 250.2 can drive a good variety of speakers, and should not be a limitation (unless that has low volume quirks).  

Posted on: 13 January 2019 by S3

For me upgrading the preamp (272 to 252) made the biggest difference in terms of revealing detail at low volume.

Posted on: 13 January 2019 by Peakman

At the time JV was looking at tone controls and for many years after, I can well understand that all options tried reduced sound quality overall, with perhaps the Quad tilt control as an honourable exception.  Putting extra analogue components in the signal path must have the potential for an adverse impact on SQ, but I think this might not be the same if the controlling is done in the digital domain.  As well as Linn and Devialet, the excellent Auralic Vega G2 has a selection of (subtly different) digital filters and some years ago I used a Meridian component (562 IIRC) between cd transport and DAC (connected directly to power amps) as a digital controller and this had some limited tone-controlling options.  I would not be surprised to see digitally-implemented options for controlling the sound become more widespread.

Roger

PS  I seem to recall my MusoQb has a loudness option!

Posted on: 13 January 2019 by fatcat

IMO for low level listening you need to reduce the bass output somewhere in the system. This will allow you to turn up the volume, but maintain your 65db sound level.

 

Posted on: 13 January 2019 by RaceTripper
fatcat posted:

IMO for low level listening you need to reduce the bass output somewhere in the system. This will allow you to turn up the volume, but maintain your 65db sound level.

 

Oh, I can't agree with that. At least not in the experience with my system. When I play at low volumes and turn off the subs it doesn't sound nearly as good. They really help fill out the textures of the midrange, even more so at low volume.

Posted on: 13 January 2019 by notnaim man
RaceTripper posted:
fatcat posted:

IMO for low level listening you need to reduce the bass output somewhere in the system. This will allow you to turn up the volume, but maintain your 65db sound level.

 

Oh, I can't agree with that. At least not in the experience with my system. When I play at low volumes and turn off the subs it doesn't sound nearly as good. They really help fill out the textures of the midrange, even more so at low volume.

+1

My understanding is that as volume decreases then sensitivity in hearing concentrates on the important speech range of frequencies. This is what a loudness control does - at lower volumes the bass and treble frequencies are boosted.

Try searching and reading about Fletcher/Munson curves.

Regarding dB meters on phones, I have three different ones that give three different readings, averages at my normal listening being 59, 65 and 85. Without a calibration source, it is so difficult to be meaningful.

Posted on: 14 January 2019 by Blackmorec

Personally I think the question may have more to do with psycho- and room acoustics than with speakers per se.  Speakers have different sensitivities, so  particular volume setting of an amp will  result in different SPLs according to the sensitivity of the speaker. So let’s say we set the amp to play at a particular SPL level. Now the question is; how good will that sound? 

So first let’s consider room acoustics. At least for orchestral and live recordings, the direct sound coming from the loudspeakers will contain 2 types of sound waves...high level waves coming from the musicians and low level waves coming from the reflections in the recording venue...the so called recording venue acoustics.  When played at low levels, the acoustics, already at a low level in the recording will be too quiet to hear, so the first thing you loose at low level is this information. This results in sound without airiness and space and no clue about the recording venue.

The next phenomenon relates to psycho-acoustics. Early reflections from the listening room with minimum delay are summed together additively with the direct soundwaves from the speaker and the original soundwave’s source is preserved.  This adds intensity to the music while preserving the soundstage. When listening at low levels, these reflections have a lot less energy and therefore do not contribute to the ‘intensity’ of the music.  By comparison, the music can sound a little thin and a little washed out. 

Finally let’s look at how a system get’s to sound ‘real’ to your ears. 

A recording contains direct sounds and reflections from the recording venue’s walls and ceiling. Those reflections have a delay, which you are sensitive to. Acoustically, that delay represents a specific distance the soundwaves have traveled. That distance translates into a fixed loss of energy....the farther a sound wave travels the more energy it loses. With everything correct, your brain can use this ratio to compute (judge) the size of the recording venue. In order to sound real, the SPL of the direct wave and its reflection should be in the correct ratio.  Your brain also knows surprisingly well how loud particular instruments should sound at a particular distance from the listener. So realistic levels would mean setting the volume so the SPL of the direct sound corresponds with the size of the venue and the listener’s percieved distance from the recorded instruments. 

When the perceived distance to the instrument corresponds to the volume (SPL) of the instrument and the reflections are in the right ratio for the perceived venue size, you will hear something that to your brain sounds quite realistic. 

Turn the volume down and you violate several of the above rules so the sound is never going to be as good as it could be, regardless of the speaker employed. 

Posted on: 14 January 2019 by Pcd

The biggest uplift in my system for low level listing enjoyment was changing the 250dr to a 300dr mind you the 300dr brings a lot more to the party in other ways as well.

Posted on: 14 January 2019 by fatcat
notnaim man posted:
RaceTripper posted:
fatcat posted:

IMO for low level listening you need to reduce the bass output somewhere in the system. This will allow you to turn up the volume, but maintain your 65db sound level.

 

Oh, I can't agree with that. At least not in the experience with my system. When I play at low volumes and turn off the subs it doesn't sound nearly as good. They really help fill out the textures of the midrange, even more so at low volume.

+1

My understanding is that as volume decreases then sensitivity in hearing concentrates on the important speech range of frequencies. This is what a loudness control does - at lower volumes the bass and treble frequencies are boosted.

Try searching and reading about Fletcher/Munson curves.

Regarding dB meters on phones, I have three different ones that give three different readings, averages at my normal listening being 59, 65 and 85. Without a calibration source, it is so difficult to be meaningful.

The brain might be able to concentrate on the midrange when the volume is low. But the brain is not able to create a 3D soundstage, this is created by the front end/amp/speakers. In my experience, with my system, a 3D soundstage/instrument separation is not achievable at low midrange volume. If the bass output is reduced, I’m able to increase the midrange volume without increasing the overall sound level. This increased midrange now produces a 3D soundstage/instrument separation.

Posted on: 14 January 2019 by Blackmorec

The front end amp & speakers together create 2 simple sound sources, left and right with varying amplitudes and phase. Those sounds enter the ears left and right and the brain uses the differential between the sounds reaching each ear to ‘locate’ the source of the sound. This psychoacoustic processing of the signal is what creates the 3 dimensional soundstage. For example, the sound you hear as coming from dead centre between the speakers is created by your brain, based on signals emanating2  from each speaker. If your amp and speakers don’t do a good job in preserving small changes in amplitude and phase and if your room has too many reflections, nodes and sources of diffraction the signals reaching your ears become too confused for your brain to make sense of and it will not create the impression of hearing a 3D soundstage. 

So, the 3D soundstage is entirely a mental construct, based on 2 sound sources with amplitude and phase artificially manipulated (Stereo) to create the illusion. 

Posted on: 14 January 2019 by Matteo

My 2 cents

After the woofers modification of my Linn 109 they sounded better at low volume (less congested)

After the change from Linn Akurate 2200 to NAP 155 XS the 109's sounded again better at low volume

M.

Posted on: 14 January 2019 by fatcat
Blackmorec posted:

So, the 3D soundstage is entirely a mental construct, based on 2 sound sources with amplitude and phase artificially manipulated (Stereo) to create the illusion. 

Would the brain be able to contruct a 3D sound stage if the sound coming out of the speakers was bareley audible, at the same level as a wisper.

Posted on: 14 January 2019 by cat345

For low volume listening, I simply push the speakers close to the wall. It has the same effect as a loudness control minus the high frequency boost.

Posted on: 14 January 2019 by Blackmorec
fatcat posted:
Blackmorec posted:

So, the 3D soundstage is entirely a mental construct, based on 2 sound sources with amplitude and phase artificially manipulated (Stereo) to create the illusion. 

Would the brain be able to contruct a 3D sound stage if the sound coming out of the speakers was bareley audible, at the same level as a wisper.

As long as the amplitude and phase differences remain in tact the brain will process the signal the same way and will produce imagery, although its likely to be more 2D than 3D as volume decreases. However because of the very low overall amplitude, low level signals like those associated with venue acoustics will be missing so the 3D image will be very simple, lacking in complexity and consisting of only the loudest part of the signal. 

If however your speakers and/or system are non-linear and distort the amplitude/frequency/phase relationships at low levels then the brain will have insufficient information to produce any kind of 3 dimensional imagery. 

When you turn down the volume, you reduce the absolute amplitude difference between quieter and louder notes and therefore the amplitude differences between the 2 ears, so what that means is that the brain has to work with smaller sound pressure differences in relative amplitude in order to construct the illusion of 3 dimensions, hence its likely that you’ll no longer hear relative depth differentiation and hear only left right positions. 

From the above you’ll see that as you decrease volume you first lose information about the venue, then depth perception will suffer. Eventually at whisper quiet levels, only the loudest information will remain and even l/r differentiation will suffer. 

Posted on: 14 January 2019 by Joppe
RaceTripper posted:
fatcat posted:

IMO for low level listening you need to reduce the bass output somewhere in the system. This will allow you to turn up the volume, but maintain your 65db sound level.

 

Oh, I can't agree with that. At least not in the experience with my system. When I play at low volumes and turn off the subs it doesn't sound nearly as good. They really help fill out the textures of the midrange, even more so at low volume.

I can agree with both of you but if also considering my neighbors I think fatcat is closer to the truth as bass tend to be more disturbing one floor below... At least I imagine I am leas of a disturbance having changed from Dynaudio C2 to Magico S1.

Posted on: 14 January 2019 by RaceTripper
Joppe posted:
...
 
 

I can agree with both of you but if also considering my neighbors I think fatcat is closer to the truth as bass tend to be more disturbing one floor below... At least I imagine I am leas of a disturbance having changed from Dynaudio C2 to Magico S1.

I don't have to worry about the downstairs. That's my kitchen.

However, when my wife is working in the kitchen and I play my C2s and REL R-328s at normal listening volume, she sometimes hears things that sound like the house is self-destructing. LOL

Posted on: 14 January 2019 by Stephen Tate

The Neat Motive Acoustic SX2 speakers are great for low level listening. Active is best though by a long shot (in my experience).