GWBush demo
Posted by: Rasher on 17 November 2003
Is it better to turn out and protest - which may be mistaken for anti-American feeling, or stay away and express dissatisfaction towards Tony Blair?
I am worried that anti-USA feeling may be expressed which is exactly the opposite to my views - the American people have been duped too. If it helps ensure GW's departure in the next Pres Elects, then I'm all for it.
Whaddayathink? Especially you over there on the other side of the pond? How would you read the protest?
I am worried that anti-USA feeling may be expressed which is exactly the opposite to my views - the American people have been duped too. If it helps ensure GW's departure in the next Pres Elects, then I'm all for it.
Whaddayathink? Especially you over there on the other side of the pond? How would you read the protest?
Posted on: 19 November 2003 by Mick P
Your pesimism astounds me
Mick
Mick
Posted on: 19 November 2003 by matthewr
Andy C. said "Re the issues surrounding Iraq, what do people think of the fact that the coalition found mass graves and warehouses with hundreds of corpses/skeletions there in"
The warehouses full of corpses were actually dead Iranian soldiers from the Iran/Iraq war (when Iraq was on our side) originally stored for possible repatriation.
Of course nobody disputes that Saddam was an evil despot but its not really the point in all of this and this sort of post-war reasoning is just the last tenuous star of justificaiton clutched at by Bush and Blair.
Matthew
The warehouses full of corpses were actually dead Iranian soldiers from the Iran/Iraq war (when Iraq was on our side) originally stored for possible repatriation.
Of course nobody disputes that Saddam was an evil despot but its not really the point in all of this and this sort of post-war reasoning is just the last tenuous star of justificaiton clutched at by Bush and Blair.
Matthew
Posted on: 19 November 2003 by MichaelC
Just a thought (no apologies for an oblique return to Iraq) but what if...
Clinton had been the man who decided that it was time to send the troops into Iraq ... a number of months later Clinton makes a presidential visit to the UK ... would we be seeing the same reaction as we are seeing being directed at Bush?
Mike
Clinton had been the man who decided that it was time to send the troops into Iraq ... a number of months later Clinton makes a presidential visit to the UK ... would we be seeing the same reaction as we are seeing being directed at Bush?
Mike
Posted on: 19 November 2003 by Justin
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC:
Just a thought (no apologies for an oblique return to Iraq) but what if...
Clinton had been the man who decided that it was time to send the troops into Iraq ... a number of months later Clinton makes a presidential visit to the UK ... would we be seeing the same reaction as we are seeing being directed at Bush?
Mike
Fuck, no way!!
Frankly, I think Clinton would have taken an equally hard line against 'ganistan and Iraq. After the African bombings, he did lob about 40 cruise missles, no? Some balls, at least. Clinton would have been more succesful in putting together a coalition before Iraq because he did not carry the crushing burden of stupidity on his shoulders in the eyes of your Europeans. I understand fully why nobody respects or trusts Bush. At least the French understand a good cigar. And, he would have run a cleaner post-war campaign. I was in favor of the war, and support what we are doing now and need to do in the future, but I can't swallow the Haliburton thing. Why, for Christ's sake, does Bush and Cheney HAVE to fullfill ever singly expectation we have of insider, big biz, Good 'ol boys?
However, when its all said and done, and whether it is a matter of shear luck or the quality of W's economic advisors, NOBODY with a clear conscious can claim that the tax cuts are not doing exactly what the good 'ol boys said they would. Christ - this recession was brought about by (1) irrational exhuberance in the late 1990's and (2) 9-11 - NOT by Bush's economic policies (obviously). But I'll be god damned if his economic policies aren't lifting the US out of this recession. It's no longer a jobless recovery.
BTW, I wonder if you your folks in the UK Germany feel that your economic fortunes are tied to US economic policy and the general health of our economy? Do you look to wallstreet?
Judd
Posted on: 19 November 2003 by Berlin Fritz
Get yer Steel Prices right Buddy, then maybe we've got a Deal ?
Old European Fritz
Graham Ricketts
Old European Fritz
Graham Ricketts
Posted on: 20 November 2003 by matthewr
Clinton got huge heat from the left over Kosovo and the Aspirin factory in Somalia. If he had behaved like Bush he would have recieved similar protests -- as indeed has Blair who's politics are of course very similar to Clinton's.
However, the chances are that if Clinton had been in the Whitehouse on 9/11 the events would have unfolded in a very different way. No doubt he would have made msitakes as well but its a fair bet that all that goodwill that the US gained from those terrible events would not have been squandered and reveresd as Bush managed in about 6 months.
On steel tarrifs there is actually strong evidence that the move has completely backfired on the US and led to increased unemployment -- it has knock on effects in indistries reliant on steel as they now cannot get their raw materials at competitive prices. Someone I know is Wall Street corresponendt for the Daily Telegraph and has written extensively on the subject. And despite Bush's blatant attempt at securing a few votes, the US steel industry is still catastrophically inefficient compared to Europe and will still ahve to go through a very painful rationalisation process in the not too distant future.
Matthew
However, the chances are that if Clinton had been in the Whitehouse on 9/11 the events would have unfolded in a very different way. No doubt he would have made msitakes as well but its a fair bet that all that goodwill that the US gained from those terrible events would not have been squandered and reveresd as Bush managed in about 6 months.
On steel tarrifs there is actually strong evidence that the move has completely backfired on the US and led to increased unemployment -- it has knock on effects in indistries reliant on steel as they now cannot get their raw materials at competitive prices. Someone I know is Wall Street corresponendt for the Daily Telegraph and has written extensively on the subject. And despite Bush's blatant attempt at securing a few votes, the US steel industry is still catastrophically inefficient compared to Europe and will still ahve to go through a very painful rationalisation process in the not too distant future.
Matthew
Posted on: 20 November 2003 by matthewr
"Why, for Christ's sake, does Bush and Cheney HAVE to fullfill ever singly expectation we have of insider, big biz, Good 'ol boys?"
Becuase they are insider, big biz, good 'ol boys?
Matthew
Becuase they are insider, big biz, good 'ol boys?
Matthew
Posted on: 20 November 2003 by domfjbrown
quote:
Originally posted by Mick Parry:
Debt is choice, no one forced it on anyone.
Tell that to all of us who've been to uni in the last 12 years... And no, I couldn't get a part time/summer job - it's called disabled discrimination...
As for the "other" type of debt - buying houses during a boom, I have no sympathy. Buying to let/holiday homes forcing first time buyers out, people moving away from areas they can afford to live in to force people out of areas they were born in (Devon, nuch???).. Greedy people always get what they deserve; it's peopple who can't afford to buy due to the crap way mortgages are assessed, yet have to afford to pay for more in rent that get the sharp stabbing pain up their butt. And no, don't panic, that's not a personal attack - I'm peed off with the banks; rents can be assessed by external bodies so that's not landlords' faults per se.
quote:
Originally posted by Mick Parry:
Yes there will be a recession in a few years time but there has always been recessions. The point is that today you have never had it so good.
Good - let's hope it's soon. My job'll be reasonably safe and I might well be able to buy a house from some aforementioned greedy person who's ambitions were too big for their wallet....
Bowahahahaha!!!!
Sorry for the hijack - now back to Blair's bush... Eeeuw - what a revolting thought...
__________________________
Make your choice, adventurous Stranger;
Strike the bell and bide the danger
Or wonder, till it drives you mad,
What would have followed if you had.
Posted on: 20 November 2003 by Rasher
quote:
Originally posted by domfjbrown:
My job'll be reasonably safe and I might well be able to buy a house from some aforementioned greedy person who's ambitions were too big for their wallet....
Dom - Thought you were about to walk out of your job
Posted on: 20 November 2003 by Joe Petrik
Matthew,
Do you have a link for that? It wouldn't surprise me if U.S. mainstream media glossed over such a discovery (that the dead were Iranian soldiers from the Iran-Iraq war), but some of the other sources I turn to for news and analysis would have almost certainly picked up on it. And yet I seemed to have missed it.
Joe
quote:
The warehouses full of corpses were actually dead Iranian soldiers from the Iran/Iraq war (when Iraq was on our side) originally stored for possible repatriation.
Do you have a link for that? It wouldn't surprise me if U.S. mainstream media glossed over such a discovery (that the dead were Iranian soldiers from the Iran-Iraq war), but some of the other sources I turn to for news and analysis would have almost certainly picked up on it. And yet I seemed to have missed it.
Joe
Posted on: 20 November 2003 by matthewr
Joe,
It was widely reported at the time. Although obviously not as widely reported as the original suggestion that Saddam was responsible for a warehouse full of dead people which is why the concept of warehouses full of bodies seems to persist.
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/special/iraq/1855051
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-04-06-morgue-bodies-found_x.htm
Obviously there are mass graves in Iraq and Saddam did kill lots of people. AFAICT, however, he did not store their bodies in warehouses (which would be an odd thing to do if you think about it).
Matthew
It was widely reported at the time. Although obviously not as widely reported as the original suggestion that Saddam was responsible for a warehouse full of dead people which is why the concept of warehouses full of bodies seems to persist.
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/special/iraq/1855051
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-04-06-morgue-bodies-found_x.htm
Obviously there are mass graves in Iraq and Saddam did kill lots of people. AFAICT, however, he did not store their bodies in warehouses (which would be an odd thing to do if you think about it).
Matthew
Posted on: 20 November 2003 by Justin
Even the BBC has something nice to say about the North of Iraq.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3282119.stm
What do you make of this. If Baghdad looked like Mosul, would there be 10,000 people in Trafilgar square today? And if so, on what grounds? Against what do you protest when the US and UK are being successful in making Iraq a better place?
Judd
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3282119.stm
What do you make of this. If Baghdad looked like Mosul, would there be 10,000 people in Trafilgar square today? And if so, on what grounds? Against what do you protest when the US and UK are being successful in making Iraq a better place?
Judd
Posted on: 20 November 2003 by domfjbrown
quote:
Originally posted by Rasher:
Dom - Thought you were about to walk out of your job
I wish - like Jip in Human Traffic, I take the corporate cockshafting because I have to pay the RENT (not MORTGAGE!). Grrr. I don't think this thing is in my job description though so when my boss gets back on Monday....
__________________________
Make your choice, adventurous Stranger;
Strike the bell and bide the danger
Or wonder, till it drives you mad,
What would have followed if you had.
Posted on: 20 November 2003 by Mick P
Get a grip, you are becoming a professional whinger.
No one forces anyone to go to university. If they go, they know at the outset that they will end up in debt. It is their choice.
No one forces you to stay in your job, you can become a hippie if you wish.
In other words, you are the architect of your own destiny same as the rest of us.
Buy a book on positive thinking, it will do you the world of good.
Regards
Mick
No one forces anyone to go to university. If they go, they know at the outset that they will end up in debt. It is their choice.
No one forces you to stay in your job, you can become a hippie if you wish.
In other words, you are the architect of your own destiny same as the rest of us.
Buy a book on positive thinking, it will do you the world of good.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 20 November 2003 by jayd
Mick Parry, please bugger off, and take Fritz with you.
Posted on: 20 November 2003 by Mick P
I have been here longer than you, so you bugger off.
Bloody upstarts
Bloody upstarts
Posted on: 20 November 2003 by matthewr
domfjbrown,
For once I have to agree with Mick -- first you were moaning about not being able to give anyone a good "cockshafting" and now you are moaning about your boss doing the exact same to you.
Assuming you are speaking figuratively of course -- if you are talking literally then you may well have reasonable grounds for complaint. Although I am not a lawyer and it may be that you have signed a contract or something that gives your boss this unusual right. In which case you'll just have to grin and bear it I'm afraid.
Matthew
For once I have to agree with Mick -- first you were moaning about not being able to give anyone a good "cockshafting" and now you are moaning about your boss doing the exact same to you.
Assuming you are speaking figuratively of course -- if you are talking literally then you may well have reasonable grounds for complaint. Although I am not a lawyer and it may be that you have signed a contract or something that gives your boss this unusual right. In which case you'll just have to grin and bear it I'm afraid.
Matthew
Posted on: 20 November 2003 by jayd
quote:
I have been here longer than you, so you bugger off.
Ha! Too true, Mick old bean. The good news is that your time will likely run out before mine. And may the sheer quantity and longevity of your contribution to the forum serve as your epitaph, because the quality has frankly been predictable, cantankerous nonsense.
Posted on: 20 November 2003 by ErikL
So did Rasher decide to protest, or not?
Posted on: 21 November 2003 by Rasher
This is Rasher's wife.
I know he wastes time here and so thought I should tell you that he is currently under arrest for throwing an egg, which he claims he was urged to do by members of this forum.
I hope you are proud of yourselves.
You should all grow up.
I know he wastes time here and so thought I should tell you that he is currently under arrest for throwing an egg, which he claims he was urged to do by members of this forum.
I hope you are proud of yourselves.
You should all grow up.
Posted on: 21 November 2003 by Rasher
Ok...that was a joke
Posted on: 21 November 2003 by andy c
Rasher
Posted on: 21 November 2003 by Berlin Fritz
I just saw a great one on Sky News: Dubya and missus have just landed up norf for their pub lunch, and one protester held a placard with "Bush You're Ace" on it, underneath a luvvly jubbly picture of our Katey, Magic.
Fritz :
Graham Ricketts
Fritz :
Graham Ricketts
Posted on: 21 November 2003 by Jo Sharp
Just a few questions to those who are against the recent military actions:
Were the people of Afghanistan better off under the Taliban with no free speech, no right to protest, repression of women, no elections etc etc?
Were the people of Iraq happy under the Saddam Hussein regime? Happy to be murdered in thousands, attacked with chemical weapons if they protested? Their 'oil money' used to build lavish palaces whilst medicines were denied to the sick (even when sanctions were lifted to supposedly allow medical provisions through)?
At least both these countries now have a chance to improve their circumstances and in the medium term , establish some better form of government.
I thought the world had learned the dangers of ignoring/condoning oppressive dictators in 1939
Evil flourishes when good men stand by and do nothing....
Jo
Were the people of Afghanistan better off under the Taliban with no free speech, no right to protest, repression of women, no elections etc etc?
Were the people of Iraq happy under the Saddam Hussein regime? Happy to be murdered in thousands, attacked with chemical weapons if they protested? Their 'oil money' used to build lavish palaces whilst medicines were denied to the sick (even when sanctions were lifted to supposedly allow medical provisions through)?
At least both these countries now have a chance to improve their circumstances and in the medium term , establish some better form of government.
I thought the world had learned the dangers of ignoring/condoning oppressive dictators in 1939
Evil flourishes when good men stand by and do nothing....
Jo
Posted on: 21 November 2003 by Rasher
That is a fair point Jo, but not the reasons we were given for going to war. We went to war on another bunch of reasons that have turned out to be lies. It's the principle and the way it was done which is the issue, irrespective of differing views on whether we should have kicked Saddam's butt or not.