Cisco Catalyst 2960 – which model to buy?

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Hi - no my point is this nothing to do with the data encodings - this is about physical voltages and the modulations and electromagnetic radiation from these frequency modulating voltages... kind of like the principles of FM radio.

Network checksum and other transport validation methods occur at a higher level - or at a higher abstraction level - and are about the validity of the digital data itself rather than the physical voltage modulations and the side effects from them used to convey signal, frequency and phase levels than can be suitably processed to eventually represent/signify logical/binary values in a digital data unit. 

The noise modulation foot print from the modulating physical voltages  is going to be pretty identical whether the binary values in the data units ultimately represented by these voltage modulations are in error or not... so in this regard TCP and frame checksums etc etc is irrelevant.

Simon but this is my doubt. Ok noise could create false message but the protocol checksum is dedicated to fix and at the end the dac will translate real binary strings....or i m missing something?

You are missing things unfortunately .. this is nothing to do with ‘binary’, ‘digital’ or any other abstractions. It is nothing to do with digital encodings or data encodings or checksums... we are talking  about real physical analogue voltages interacting and coupling as well as the electromagnetic fields they create, the TI document is a good guide to help understand.

Simon is absolutely right here the noise couples into the DAC and other analogue electronics, degrading the sound there (rather than affecting the digital data stream or digital processing).

MarcusM posted:

Hi!

Sorry for the late feedback but finally I managed to test a Cisco 2960 in my system. I’ve had a 2 week vacation and it also took a week to take delivery of the switch after ordering. Okay, so does a switch improve SQ in my system?

Yes it does! Thank you Simon and the rest of you that suggested the Cisco 2960 .

I’ve compared “no switch” vs Netgear GS105 vs Cisco-switch.

With “no switch” as baseline I get an audible improvement by adding the Netgear switch “between” wall outlet and my Melco NAS. When exchanging the Netgear switch for the Cisco the improvement is twice as big (at least). The connection is from wall outlet: cheap “freebee” Ethernet cable from wall outlet to Cisco switch, cheap “freebee” Ethernet cable from Cisco switch to Melco NAS and finally Chord Sarum SA from Melco NAS to my Naim streamer.

I also tried to connect the switch earlier in the signal chain, after my Router but before the cable in the wall leading up to the wall outlet next to my system. Here I can also hear an improvement but I would say it’s something like half the improvement compared to the switch connected closer to my system.

So the conclusion is that I “need” the Cisco switch and it needs to be connected close before my Melco NAS. The idea now is to have a 3m long cable from wall outlet to switch, 1m cable from switch to Melco NAS and 1m cable from Melco to Naim streamer. I will hide the switch underneath the brawn-stack in my setup.

I have also made a few tests with Ethernet cables. Starting with cheap “freebee” Ethernet cables in all three positions I have tried to insert my Sarum SA in the different locations. The last meter (between Melco and ND555) is by far the most important location to my ears but I can also hear improvements in the other two locations where switch to Melco is the second most important location. Adding the Sarum SA between the wall outlet and switch also improves the SQ but less so compared to the other positions. No real surprise there…

Next step should be to borrow a couple of Ethernet cables from my dealer and experiment a little more. Will I get an improvement when using cables of a little bit better quality (instead of cheap “freebee” Ethernet cable) in all three positions simultaneously?

/Marcus

Thanks, that’s very helpful for me, planning how to get the best out of the ND555 I ordered this week in terms of where it would be best locate the NAS. and switch (and to consider the Cisco.. is it easy to articulate how it sound better?

Mike, I bought one of these a couple of years ago, to replace a Netgear 105. I was already using AudioQuest Vodka ethernet cables. At the time I described the change as making the music sound ‘nicer’ and while it’s a bit of a wussy description I really couldn’t think of anything better. For £50 you really can’t go wrong. 

Thanks, Nigel. Have you tried using a (still switching but) medical-grade power supply?

Looks like the best bet could be to have the switch and NAS on an additional shelf of Fraim....

Hi Michael_B, (it looks like we have similar names).   I believe most of the Cisco Catalyst switches have an internal power supply so changing to a 'medical grade' is not required.    

However as you mention this & for interest,  I use another Cisco switch, SG110D,  which does have an external PSU & after trying a few of the more popular alternative makes, plus one failing,  I ended up with Friwo MMP15.   This is a very robust design & has a very steady & stable DC output & appears to be as good & better as any other on the market.

Tip:  try to hide the NAS & switch,  maybe in another room,  or as I do in a closed door cabinet - the flashing lights will drive you nuts.

Thanks , Mike. I’ve been recommended the Netgear model Marcus has replaced but with medical-grade power supply. I have no idea how that compares with the Cisco. I know absolutely nothing about the sonic performance of these switches.

My initial assumption was to keep the switch and NAS away from my Naim stacks, but Marcos’ findings made me think closer would be better for the sound quality. 

Nearly all Cisco Catalyst switches have a built in SMPS. It’s a decent one which is not electrically noisy, so I don’t think you need to worry about it. Probably harmless enough to put it on the rack, although I habitually tend to keep such items a little distance away, and on a separate mains circuit. 

I have a very different Cisco 300 series switch, which is the electrical equivalent of a hornets nest, and I no longer use it. 

Michael_B. posted:

Thanks , Mike. I’ve been recommended the Netgear model Marcus has replaced but with medical-grade power supply. I have no idea how that compares with the Cisco. I know absolutely nothing about the sonic performance of these switches.

My initial assumption was to keep the switch and NAS away from my Naim stacks, but Marcos’ findings made me think closer would be better for the sound quality.  

I'm not getting into the sonic performances of switches,  other than say I changed a Netgear GS105 to a Cisco SG110D (not for sonic reasons I must add),  but the Cisco did improve SQ over the Netgear albeit subtly.   I had already gone through some PSU changes with iFi & finally to Friwo,  so after first trying the supplied Cisco PSU, I then changed back to the Friwo & confirmed it did 'improve' the SQ.    I have recently opened up & studied the Netgear & Cisco internal circuitry & without getting into detail the Cisco is notably more refined & capable than is the Netgear. 

Re your ND555:    I understand from reading other reports on the forum the ND555 is not really affected by switch variables due to its enhanced ethernet isolation & buffer capacity.

I don't think proximity of NAS & Naim stacks makes any difference one way or other,  my only concern is flashing LED's & if the NAS has any noise that intrudes.  

Michael_B. posted:

Thanks, Nigel. Have you tried using a (still switching but) medical-grade power supply?

Looks like the best bet could be to have the switch and NAS on an additional shelf of Fraim....

The 2960 8TC-L has a built in power supply so cannot be upgraded. It lives on the floor on four little rubber feet, under a sideboard in the dining room, where the Nas also resides on a little table. The AQ wire then goes through the wall from the Cisco and into the streamer. Both nas and switch run off an APC UPS connected to the house ring main. The stereo has dedicated mains. As the Nas makes clonky noises and both it and the switch flash like demented fireflies there is no way I’d want them on the Fraim or anywhere in view. If you would like to see it in action before making decisions, you know where we are. You are long overdue another visit. Just let me know. 

Just got one of these switches and much more detail than my previous Netgear GS205. Well worth the small outlay. 

The switch I bought was a 2960 WS 8TCL

Is it worth upgrading the mains cable from one of the bog standard Kettle leads? Do these work with no mains lead at all with the POE? I reset to factory settings when I connected up

The switch is connected by Chord C stream ethernet cable from router and Chord Epic Streaming Cables to Synology DS118 nas and other to my streamer

RichardD posted:

The switch I bought was a 2960 WS 8TCL

Is it worth upgrading the mains cable from one of the bog standard Kettle leads? Do these work with no mains lead at all with the POE? I reset to factory settings when I connected up 

I think it does not.
Check it here : 

https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/...comparison.html#2960

Hi, fiddling around with mains leads is unlikely to make any difference... I use what is supplied by Cisco.

There are only a few devices than have no PSU and are either powered by separate 48 volt DC powersupply or Power over Ethernet on the uplink ports.

One of my devices is one of these and is a  WS-C2960PD-8TT-L and power it with a separate DC powersupply currently. It can’t be mains powered.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

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Hi, fiddling around with mains leads is unlikely to make any difference... I use what is supplied by Cisco.

There are only a few devices than have no PSU and are either powered by separate 48 volt DC powersupply or Power over Ethernet on the uplink ports.

One of my devices is one of these and is a  WS-C2960PD-8TT-L and power it with a separate DC powersupply currently. It can’t be mains powered.

hey Simon,

i read sometimes ago that you were using a cisco model powered by ethernet.  Have you changed to a model with a separate dc power supply?  is it better sounding or no change ?

No, I have severeal devices. The one I list above can be powered by a DC powersupply or PoE .. it has no Internal AC powersupply. In the past I have used PoE with it.. currently using a DC powersupply instead as it suits me better. This particular device is not currently connected to my streamer.

i hear no SQ differences at all between the various models... DC powered or AC powered, or PoE source or PoE sink.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

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Hi, fiddling around with mains leads is unlikely to make any difference... I use what is supplied by Cisco.

 

???? Here have Simon,..and those in our group (Include Me),who have tested quite different views.
It is a clearly audible musical improvement with a better powercord.

?But as usual,..if you have not been "Attention To Detail" in your music-system installation, you may not experience any difference.

Then what powercord you choose,..it depends on what components you have in your music-system.
Synergy is important to find.

/Peder ????

Define better.. and is that for PoE, DC power cord, UPS board... i think if you are hearing differences it’s most likely earth grounding related... which means said leads may affect whatever they are connecting to where they are providing a route to ground... 

i have had whole load of devices and different power arrangements and not heard any sound difference on the Catalyst devices, but I am not reliant for my switch earth for shield earthing.

A variant I have been informed of through private correspondence from an established Hi-Fi equipment evaluator was that there is a view that there is a degree of microphony on certain switches... I have yet to notice that myself.

Mike, I’ll get in touch after Christmas. I don’t think there is a sonic benefit to the UPS but it’s reassuring that the nas is protected from power blips. It’s a Qnap TS253A with WD red hard drives. As it’s in the dining room it doesn’t matter if it clonks a bit. SS drives in large capacities are really pricey so I have standard ones. 

Huge posted:

Simon is absolutely right here the noise couples into the DAC and other analogue electronics, degrading the sound there (rather than affecting the digital data stream or digital processing).

Hi All

i hope you are all having a great Christmas.

So, the idea is that the data is delivered to the DAC as a bit perfect replica or what can from the studio as we have checksums etc to guarantee that. It’s in fact the noise introduced by the various electronics that can pollute the analog signal paths.

So, why not use fibre for the last leg with a little media converter? Problem solved no? 

LanceC posted:

Huge posted:

Simon is absolutely right here the noise couples into the DAC and other analogue electronics, degrading the sound there (rather than affecting the digital data stream or digital processing).

Hi All

i hope you are all having a great Christmas.

So, the idea is that the data is delivered to the DAC as a bit perfect replica or what can from the studio as we have checksums etc to guarantee that. It’s in fact the noise introduced by the various electronics that can pollute the analog signal paths.

So, why not use fibre for the last leg with a little media converter? Problem solved no? 

 

 

 

Pretty sure S-I-S has had this conversation with Naim for the same reasons you mention. May be he can shed some light as to why this was not included as an option for the new streamers. One reason I would guess is most customers would have to make changes to their    IT infrastructure.

LanceC posted:

Huge posted:

Simon is absolutely right here the noise couples into the DAC and other analogue electronics, degrading the sound there (rather than affecting the digital data stream or digital processing).

Hi All

i hope you are all having a great Christmas.

So, the idea is that the data is delivered to the DAC as a bit perfect replica or what can from the studio as we have checksums etc to guarantee that. It’s in fact the noise introduced by the various electronics that can pollute the analog signal paths.

So, why not use fibre for the last leg with a little media converter? Problem solved no?  

It wouldn’t be the last leg, as there is no fibre input on a Naim streamer. It might be the last-but-one leg, but then you have re-introduced any possible downside of a copper Ethernet connection, as well as possibly adding one or more avoidable powered devices to your network and mains. 

Interestingly there would still be a benefit in using a switch like a 2960.. it makes no difference whether twisted pair or fibre... remember this is largely about serial clock precision/jitter, and the SFP module is reliant on the host switch... this is also why for SQ I am against inline none descript electronics media converters.

Regarding Naim and the use of SFPs, (thanks Gaza) such that the user can use either twisted pair or fibre, depending on the SFP they use.. although my question got met with a smile... and the words along the lines ‘gosh, that would be good wouldn’t it’.. I got the impression they felt this would be beyond the typical consumer... not sure I was entirely convinced... perhaps we might  see this in a future Statement Network player...

Michael_B. posted:

Thanks , Mike. I’ve been recommended the Netgear model Marcus has replaced but with medical-grade power supply. I have no idea how that compares with the Cisco. I know absolutely nothing about the sonic performance of these switches.

My initial assumption was to keep the switch and NAS away from my Naim stacks, but Marcos’ findings made me think closer would be better for the sound quality. 

 

Hi Michael!

In my system closer is without a dough better. I can’t explain why but in listening tests it’s quite clear. My guess is that a cable will function as an aerial and induce noise in the apparatus it’s connected to. If I connect the switch in my “media central” there is a long cable from the switch to the wall outlet near my system. This cable in the wall “collects” noise and then transfers it to my Melco NAS. If I instead install the switch close to my Melco NAS the cable after the switch is much shorter, i.e. you have a shorter aerial that “collects” noise. I therefor think that less noise is induced and that you get better SQ with the switch close to the system.

Maybe Mike or S-i-S can give a better technical description to why or why not this could be a possible explanation.

Regardless of if it’s possible to explain or not I hear a difference. I’m not very fond of having a switch close to my system but since it gives better SQ I have my Cisco switch hidden under my brawn stack. This was not the solution I was hoping... 

/Marcus

Mike-B posted:

Michael_B. posted:

Thanks , Mike. I’ve been recommended the Netgear model Marcus has replaced but with medical-grade power supply. I have no idea how that compares with the Cisco. I know absolutely nothing about the sonic performance of these switches.

My initial assumption was to keep the switch and NAS away from my Naim stacks, but Marcos’ findings made me think closer would be better for the sound quality.  

I'm not getting into the sonic performances of switches,  other than say I changed a Netgear GS105 to a Cisco SG110D (not for sonic reasons I must add),  but the Cisco did improve SQ over the Netgear albeit subtly.   I had already gone through some PSU changes with iFi & finally to Friwo,  so after first trying the supplied Cisco PSU, I then changed back to the Friwo & confirmed it did 'improve' the SQ.    I have recently opened up & studied the Netgear & Cisco internal circuitry & without getting into detail the Cisco is notably more refined & capable than is the Netgear. 

Re your ND555:    I understand from reading other reports on the forum the ND555 is not really affected by switch variables due to its enhanced ethernet isolation & buffer capacity.

I don't think proximity of NAS & Naim stacks makes any difference one way or other,  my only concern is flashing LED's & if the NAS has any noise that intrudes.  

Unfortunately, this do not correspond to my findings. The ND555 is at least as sensitive as the NDS when it comes to switches and Ethernet cables. When I attended a demo of the NDX2 I asked the question about the new streaming platform being less sensitive to Ethernet cables. The dealer smiled and replied that he could demonstrate that at some point in time. When I got my new streamer installed he brought along a few Ethernet cables and asked if I wanted to find out the answer to my question that I asked at the demo. After a few tests it was quite clear that the last meter of Ethernet cable made just as big of a difference as it did with the NDS.

Introducing a switch in my system also makes a difference that is easy to hear. I have also made some tests with different Ethernet cables and also trying to put “better” Ethernet cables in different positions in the signal chain to see if that makes a difference.

Maybe the old streamers was more sensitive but since the new streamers have higher resolution and less noise in the signal the introduction of a switch or a “better” Ethernet cable is at least as easy to hear.

In my system and with my ears, off course. Others may hear it different. My conclusion is: if you have a revealing system it is important to pay attention to details and small (and not to expensive) changes may give a noticeable effect to SQ.

/Marcus