NDX2

[@mention:1566878603876589]  Just curious here, as someone in the market for a top notch and convenient digital transport, why would you go for the NDX2 vs ND5XS2?  I formed the impression that the DSP section of all the new streamers, including the mighty ND555, was the same across the range.  Wouldn't the ND5XS2 be a better bet if acting as transport only?  Even that option seems a little painful, given the redundancy, and I'd rather Naim created a streamer void of analogue output, leaving the customer to chose the DAC. 

ChrisSU posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

  The  Roon Core acts as an internet streaming proxy and is hugely more integrated and seamless compared to BubbleServer which I was using before.

Good enough to revert from Qobuz to Tidal?

Absolutely, and I have done.

Mr Frog posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

...... as transport I am referring to the streamer setup to BNC output, which disables the analogue outputs. .......

I currently feed this SPDIF into a Hugo Mk1.......

Hi Simon

I guess that means that using the Hugo Mk1 sounds much better than using the NDX2 on its own (internal DAC) ... as was always the case with NDX 

I only ask, because I'm using Hugo MK1 with my ND5xs and if I am to upgrade to NDX2, I thought that the Hugo would no longer be required - I naturally assumed that the newer NDX2 would have a better internal DAC (compared to the 'ageing' Hugo MK1)  .... bit of a shame if the latest Naim internal DAC doesn't beat the Hugo  ..... which apparently still reigns supreme.

Guess the Chord DAC's  are still very much the top of their game 

Well I think the Hugo sound better to my ears, and remember the Hugo custom DAC  is an awful lot newer compared to the rather elderly PCM1704K.. but age alone is no determining factor.. these DACs work quite differently and produce different results to my ears.

NQ, the NDS is like the NDX in this regard, and the setup is achieved differently than the newer streamers and the options are different. As I said above the NDX can output BNC SPDIF and audio concurrently if required... the NDX2 can not do this.. you configure it to work in one mode or the other.

Songstream, please see my earlier posts, I want the display.. the ND5XS2 has no display, so not sure how that could be an option for me. The internal PSU in the NDX2 is of a slightly higher quality/size too which clearly is important when trying to extract as much as you can from the architecture. The same held true in differences between NDX and ND5SX in transport mode... perhaps this is an area you have not really explored yet?

With regard to ‘redundancy’ in terms of weight and space and cost of raw componentry is arguably less in using an external DAC rather replacing the internal PSU...... but the key thing you might be missing is that these products are designed to operate in one of two modes..... which can be user configured ..  which is why I choose them ... so your point of so called redundancy is perplexing .. it’s how the products are designed!!.... but anyway.. isn’t that nice that Naim give you the options on how you can use their products... it’s certainly one of the reasons of why I buy them.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Possibly - but Naim and my dealer look after me - and make my upgrade relatively painless.. I  like the Naim control ecosystem and I like the fact I can occasionally talk to  some of the design and product  team, i know where and how it is made  and on occasions am invited to visit the company along with some other of their customers. That to me, perhaps as I am an engineer,  is also very important. 

 

What matters is the fact that Naim do not to offer pure transports and pure DACs at relatively painless prices. This is for me a very strong argument not to buy their streamers, no matter how well they do perform as transports. Still, it is good to know that the NDX2 can compete with other well established pure transports!

nbpf posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Possibly - but Naim and my dealer look after me - and make my upgrade relatively painless.. I  like the Naim control ecosystem and I like the fact I can occasionally talk to  some of the design and product  team, i know where and how it is made  and on occasions am invited to visit the company along with some other of their customers. That to me, perhaps as I am an engineer,  is also very important. 

 

What matters is the fact that Naim do not to offer pure transports and pure DACs at relatively painless prices. This is for me a very strong argument not to buy their streamers, no matter how well they do perform as transports. Still, it is good to know that the NDX2 can compete with other well established pure transports!

Actually that hasn't been established at all. Simon clearly mentioned he wasn't comparing because other factors like brand loyalty and trust in the blokes that make it and their known service levels, for him, make testing a similarly priced transport a moot point.

And I think he makes an appreciably honest and valid point.

I live 6000 miles away with no Naim presence in country. It would be insane for me to not compare other domestically produced high end options.

feeling_zen posted:

nbpf posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Possibly - but Naim and my dealer look after me - and make my upgrade relatively painless.. I  like the Naim control ecosystem and I like the fact I can occasionally talk to  some of the design and product  team, i know where and how it is made  and on occasions am invited to visit the company along with some other of their customers. That to me, perhaps as I am an engineer,  is also very important. 

 

What matters is the fact that Naim do not to offer pure transports and pure DACs at relatively painless prices. This is for me a very strong argument not to buy their streamers, no matter how well they do perform as transports. Still, it is good to know that the NDX2 can compete with other well established pure transports!

Actually that hasn't been established at all. Simon clearly mentioned he wasn't comparing because other factors like brand loyalty and trust in the blokes that make it and their known service levels, for him, make testing a similarly priced transport a moot point.

And I think he makes an appreciably honest and valid point.

I live 6000 miles away with no Naim presence in country. It would be insane for me to not compare other domestically produced high end options.

Right, I should have written "Still, it would be good ...", not "Still, it is good ...". I could probably get an NDX2 for a weekend from a local Naim dealer (my Naim dealer is actually a few hundred miles away) and compare it to my Allo DigiOne Signature. I would certainly do this if the NDX2 was a pure transport. But, to tell the truth, I do not feel like wanting to demo a device that I have no intention to buy.

Feeling Zen, you are spot on, and if I were your in your situation I would do exactly the same.

the Allo Digione signature as you know, needs good power supplies, and the cost of that also adds up considerably.

 

...Songstream, please see my earlier posts, I want the display.. the ND5XS2 has no display, so not sure how that could be an option for me. The internal PSU in the NDX2 is of a slightly higher quality/size too which clearly is important when trying to extract as much as you can from the architecture. The same held true in differences between NDX and ND5SX in transport mode... perhaps this is an area you have not really explored yet?

With regard to ‘redundancy’ in terms of weight and space and cost of raw componentry is arguably less in using an external DAC rather replacing the internal PSU...... but the key thing you might be missing is that these products are designed to operate in one of two modes..... which can be user configured ..  which is why I choose them ... so your point of so called redundancy is perplexing .. it’s how the products are designed!!.... but anyway.. isn’t that nice that Naim give you the options on how you can use their products... it’s certainly one of the reasons of why I buy them.

It's an area I've not explored at all, in terms of actual listening, hence the curiosity.  My system is....how do I put this....unconventional.  It has a Windows 10 PC as the digital transport.  There are many good points, and the sound quality vs anything else I've heard is unrivaled, but I'm not the kind of person that's out at dealers to audition stuff all the time.  What I am looking for is a digital transport with superb SPDIF output, to handle music from NAS and Qobuz.  In theory the perfect product is the Auralic Aries, but does it have the talent claimed?  Trusting in Naim as I do, I've been considering adding the ND5XS2, as I have no interest in a display on the device itself, and figure it should be able to deliver very close to the performance of the NDX2 as a transport.  Based on your experience it seems you disagree.

analogmusic posted:

the Allo Digione signature as you know, needs good power supplies, and the cost of that also adds up considerably.

 

But still nowhere near the cost of the NDX2 for instance as a network player into an external DAC. Of course there are many other possibly (probably?) better alternatives out there to the Allo Digione Signature - the Sonore microRendu and ultraRendu for example (or the SOTM equivalents) or if you want to go a little bit more mainstream,  the Auralic G1 or G2. Of course the Sonore & SOTM products do need external linear power supplies (around £250+ for a very good one) and would also require a USB to Spdif converter (and yet another linear power supply) if you want to avoid USB into a non galvanically isolated DAC like the Hugo1. Still a good bit cheaper than an NDX2, but quite a bit messier. The above products would of course also (certainly the Sonore products would) provide you with access to both Tidal and Qobuz (not available in integrated form from Naim). Sonore would additionally provide bit perfect MQA pass through, although they have decided not to implement their MQA 'unfolding' update as a result of a potential backlash from some of their supporters. 

Now, I can also understand the attraction of going for the NDX2 as a renderer/streamer only, although it does seem a bit of a shame to ditch the DAC which I would expect to be pretty good. It's a lovely looking product and it may well be as good as or even better as a streamer/renderer than any of the above products. I haven't heard one, so I just don't know. And of course you have a DAC that is probably more than decent as well should you wish to use it. And then of course there's the Naim app. Some appear not to like it, but I personally prefer it to most of the alternatives out there such as Lumin.

Still, there certainly are alternative solutions out there that are worth investigating. 

analogmusic posted:

the Allo Digione signature as you know, needs good power supplies, and the cost of that also adds up considerably.

An interesting assertion there.  The Allo Digione Signature does need two separate supplies; one for the Raspberry Pi "dirty" board, plus a second for the "clean" Allo boards.  A cheap SMPS wall wart seems to be fine for the dirty RPi board.  Allo recommends a set of 4 rechargeable batteries in a pack for the "clean" side.  All together, including supplies and case, this comes to circa €400.

I would agree that this "adds up considerably" beyond the price of a bare RPi.
Perhaps I have misunderstood your post but I'm not entirely sure that it "adds up considerably" when compared to the price of the rather excellent Naim NDX2.

 Best regards, FT

analogmusic posted:

the Allo Digione signature as you know, needs good power supplies, and the cost of that also adds up considerably.

 

Sure, I have spent more than 1k on power supplies for the DigiOne Signature: for the LPS-1.2 that powers the clean side and for the JS-2 that powers the dirty side. This is probably a bit over the top but I am not basically against investing money on PSUs, in particular if these are well built and are aesthetically appealing.

Thus, I am not saying that the NDX2 is too expensive, just that I would not want to use it as a pure transport. There is nothing wrong using the NDX2 as a pure transport, of course, just it is not for me. I am also not completely convinced about the software that runs on the NDX2 but, as I wrote, I have not played around with the device.

Hmack posted:

analogmusic posted:

the Allo Digione signature as you know, needs good power supplies, and the cost of that also adds up considerably.

 

... And then of course there's the Naim app. Some appear not to like it, but I personally prefer it to most of the alternatives out there such as Lumin.

Still, there certainly are alternative solutions out there that are worth investigating.

The last time I tried the Lumin app was about two years ago and I remember that I thought that the app was awkward.

But I love BubbleUPnP (only for Android, unfortunately) and I find Linn Kazoo (iOS and Android) actually quite usable and aesthetically appealing.

BubbleUPnP is very fast and it never fails to connect to a device, no matter whether this is a server, a renderer, a TV or a blu-ray player. The capability of opening album booklets on the control point is great and very much improves the listening experience.

What about the Innuos Zen Mini Mark 3? It seems to be a good ripper, which has USB output and optional linear power supply. Having tried Naim boxes such as UnitiServe, Core and NDX I am averse to using the App. I want to able to rip without hassle and play without the box locking up! My nDAC/555 does very nicely, with CDX2 as the transport.

Phil

Filipe posted:

What about the Innuos Zen Mini Mark 3? It seems to be a good ripper, which has USB output and optional linear power supply. Having tried Naim boxes such as UnitiServe, Core and NDX I am averse to using the App. I want to able to rip without hassle and play without the box locking up! My nDAC/555 does very nicely, with CDX2 as the transport.

Phil

Maybe worth a try, as the Mk 3 has an SPDIF output, and most of the functions of a Naim streamer as well as being a ripper/downloader/music store. That makes it an extremely versatile little box, although I’ve only heard it as a server, so I have no idea how it would sound into a DAC. 

ChrisSU posted:

Filipe posted:

What about the Innuos Zen Mini Mark 3? It seems to be a good ripper, which has USB output and optional linear power supply. Having tried Naim boxes such as UnitiServe, Core and NDX I am averse to using the App. I want to able to rip without hassle and play without the box locking up! My nDAC/555 does very nicely, with CDX2 as the transport.

Phil

Maybe worth a try, as the Mk 3 has an SPDIF output, and most of the functions of a Naim streamer as well as being a ripper/downloader/music store. That makes it an extremely versatile little box, although I’ve only heard it as a server, so I have no idea how it would sound into a DAC. 

Thanks for the feedback, Chris. I’m talking to my dealer. Not sure if he has the LPS and whether to wait until he does rather than rush out tomorrow!

Phil

Filipe posted:

What about the Innuos Zen Mini Mark 3? It seems to be a good ripper, which has USB output and optional linear power supply. Having tried Naim boxes such as UnitiServe, Core and NDX I am averse to using the App. I want to able to rip without hassle and play without the box locking up! My nDAC/555 does very nicely, with CDX2 as the transport.

Phil

Do you really need a ripper? I do not know the Zen Mini Mark 3 and, as pointed out by CHRISSU, the device has a S/PDIF output which makes it interesting as a source for S/PDIF DACs. That said, I would always prefer a source without a CD reader and I do not see the point of using anything else than my laptop for ripping CDs. Perhaps a dCS Network bridge or an Allo DigiOne Signature could be more suitable sources for a nDAC+555 system? 

nbpf posted:

Filipe posted:

What about the Innuos Zen Mini Mark 3? It seems to be a good ripper, which has USB output and optional linear power supply. Having tried Naim boxes such as UnitiServe, Core and NDX I am averse to using the App. I want to able to rip without hassle and play without the box locking up! My nDAC/555 does very nicely, with CDX2 as the transport.

Phil

Do you really need a ripper? I do not know the Zen Mini Mark 3 and, as pointed out by CHRISSU, the device has a S/PDIF output which makes it interesting as a source for S/PDIF DACs. That said, I would always prefer a source without a CD reader and I do not see the point of using anything else than my laptop for ripping CDs. Perhaps a dCS Network bridge or an Allo DigiOne Signature could be more suitable sources for a nDAC+555 system? 

Nbpf, I have lots of music in wav format from UnitiServe and Core demos. I don’t fancy ripping 1500+ albums with dBpoweramp. I have a spdif out sound card in my PC which I can connect to nDAC with an optical cable, but my tv does a better job using Twonky (very basic version) DLNA server on the NAS. I just don’t want to use the PC. If the Innuos did a good job then it can be backed up by the NAS storing my ripped collection and I then have better backup if I loose my RAID 0 (mirrored disks) NAS. The cost difference doesn’t look so bad then. Only costs time to demo. 

Phil

 I have ordered a Allo digione signature and and should receive it very soon.

Still though, with for example the uptone Linear power supplies one for the clean and one for the dirty side we are looking at an additional 400 dollars for the clean side and an additional 925 dollars for the dirty side. It seems the LPS 1.2  doesn't have enough current capability to power the dirty side, maybe as it seems to be a bank of capacitors running side by side.

Yes I am aware batteries can be used, but the point is the power supply does make a difference even in a streamer, and although I cannot afford the 5000 GBP retail of an NDX2, the ND5XS 2 has exactly the same streaming board, and has a more affordable cost, closer to the auralic aries G2.

I had a look at pictures of the internals of the DCS network bridge, which shows that it has a made in UK Linear toroidal power supply, but when compared in visual size to the one inside the NDX2, it seems to  look  a lot smaller but otherwise the streaming board of the DCS is massive compared to the one inside the NDX2. 

All options like Auralic, Aurender, DCS and Naim still expensive though, which is why for the time being I am trying the allo digione and saving up for the Hugo Mscaler which makes a considerable improvement to my Chord Dave.

As for USB based solutions, for a Chord DAC at least, I like (to my ears) a SPDIF connection more compared to a noisy laptop (even if on battery) into USB.

As for NDX2 sounding better than NDX, if bits are bits and the power supply almost the same, for a Chord DAC it should make little difference (as it reclocks the bits anyway and has excellent jitter rejection)... but the NDX2 does seem to turn off the DAC section, and DAC Chips are noisy, so maybe that could be one reason why the NDX2 sounds a lot better?

Maybe the NDX2 network card is less noisy than the one inside the NDX... 

It seems to be quite complicated to a non-engineer like me, so once I purchase the Mscaler Hugo for my Dave, the Naim ND5XS2 seems to be an attractive solution.....

as for Jitter and Chord Dacs.... 

as per Chord

But with all of my DAC's you do not need to worry at all about source jitter, so all of the above AK numbers are fine. So long as its below 2uS (that is 2,000,000 pS) you are OK, and nobody has jitter that bad!

1. SPDIF decoding is all digital within the FPGA. The FPGA uses a digital phase lock loop (DPLL) and a tiny buffer. This re-clocks the data and eliminates the incoming jitter from the source. This system took 6 years to perfect, and means that the sound quality defects from source jitter is eliminated. How do I know that? Measurements - 2 uS of jitter has no affect whatsoever on measurements (and I can resolve noise floor at -180dB with my APX555) and sound quality tests against RAM buffer systems revealed no significant difference. You can (almost) use a piece of damp string and the source jitter will be eliminated.

Ali, what does ‘bits are bits’ actually supposed to mean, I see quoted a few times on this forum.. from a mathematical or engineering perspective with respect to a timed discrete data  series or stream it’s a nonsense.. so intrigued what people are trying to describe or are referring to when they use that expression. 

I kind of assumed  that there is a general confusion or lack of understanding of the differences between a static discrete value, and a discrete  series of values... I guess the roots of this understanding are mathematical which might be the reason for the general confusion.. but please help me here..

Finally these days, and has been generally the case for probably a few decades now, transport framing data clocking is not directly used to drive a DAC clock.. and associated sample jitter. However system coupling of frequencies and perturbations from digital switching circuits has the potential to be audible.. hence why manufacturers like Naim and others go to great effort to mitigate this as far as possible through  attention to the electromagnetic field, ground plane and powerline decoupling for digital clock (ie those discrete data streams mentioned above) as well as analogue audio circuitry from data transport streams and other digital switching circuitry. I feel this is an area that has significantly improved with the new Naim streamers, and indeed Naim themselves have advised some of us on some of the design and engineering steps they have taken to improve the performance in this area.

Apologies Simon by that I mean that the NDX and NDX2 should be able to deliver both bit perfect data.

since chord insist their DACs are rejecting  jitter where else is the sonic difference coming from is my question

i do hear big differences between an HDX and Auralic Aries streamer as a source to chord Dave 

Can I ask - what if any part does the front-end application play in the delivery of 'bit-perfect' data to the streamer/DAC? Intuitively, I would have thought none, but I am a little confused.

The reason I ask this question is that bit-perfect data is required for my Mytek Brooklyn+ DAC to recognise and play both MQA and DSD files. When I use the mconnectHD app to select music from my NAS or from Tidal via my Sonore microRendu, all MQA files and all DSD files (without exception) must be being delivered to the Brooklyn+ DAC in a bit-perfect form because they are all identified correctly and all play as expected.

When I use the Linn Kazoo app to select music in the same setup, DSD files display as 16bit files and play as white noise. When I use either Linn Kazoo or Lumin to play Tidal MQA Masters, a few Tidal MQA Master files are displayed correctly and play as expected, but the vast majority of Tidal MQA masters are not recognised as being MQA and display and play as 16 bit, 44.1kHz files.

Interestingly, the only two MQA encoded albums I have on my NAS and the Norwegion 2l sample files on my NAS display and play correctly as hi-res MQA files when played through my Linn Kazoo application. 

This does not make any sense to me at all.

I’m wondering the same. Is the output of various streamers bit perfect ?

for instance the auralic Aries has 4 filter settings so is the data changed by these 4 filters ?

chord do insist that no software should change the data to get the best out of the DACs

or at least the streamer should give the option of a bit perfect I.e no change to the original source data.

Simon I’m sorry but I’m not able to understand the advantages of ndx2 over nd5xs 2 when used purely as a transport ?