MQA and Naim

The Sonore helpdesk is pretty impressive and very quick to respond to questions and issues. Jesus from the support desk has actually been experimenting with a Mytek Brooklyn DAC to try to resolve my problem. I assume Sonore originally purchased the DAC to allow them to develop and test their MQA update for Sonore devices (which unfortunately might now never be released).

I have just been told by Jesus from Sonore support that if I upgrade the Sonicorbiter software version on my microRendu to 2.7 (a new SD card available for around $20 is required for that on my microRendu), then I will be able to uninstall and do away completely with bubbleUPnP server on the Rendu. If I switch the Rendu to 'MPD/DNLA output mode' I will be able to control my music using the Linn Kazoo app, and gain access to Tidal via the app rather than via bubbleUPnP. Linn Kazoo does not (unlike the Tidal desktop or the Lumin and MConnect apps I have been using with the Rendu) display Tidal Masters. However, Jesus carried out a search on Kazoo for 'MQA', identified an album (Mozart Concertos), selected a track from the album and the track was identified correctly and fully unfolded by the Brooklyn DAC.

If only it was as easy as this. The problem is that a search for MQA on Kazoo (I already use Kazoo to control my Linn Klimax DS/1 streamer and so could test this for myself) only identifies 6 albums out of the library of hundreds of MQA Masters that are available on Tidal, so again this is not really a viable solution. I guess though that I should at least be able to stream MQA content I might buy in the future from my NAS using this option, although at the moment the only MQA content on my NAS is a number of free 2L tracks.

One potential solution to the Tidal problem has just occurred to me. I suppose it would be possible to create and save (on Tidal) a 'Favourite' playlist of MQA albums or tracks using the Lumin app which display a list of MQA albums , and then access and play that same playlist using Linn Kazoo. A bit clunky and annoying, but at least good enough for me to be able to assess the merits (or otherwise) of MQA on Tidal.  

Looks like I'll be sending off for a microRendu 2.7 SD card upgrade.         

Hmack posted:

Hi Simon,

That is what I feared, but are you talking about the bubbleUPnP server or the bubbleUPnP app? I am using bubbleUPnP server on the microRendu to set up an OpenHome renderer that can be used to access Tidal or Qobuz, but I am not using the app as a control point for my music selection.  

I have tried both MConnect and Lumin apps as the control point for my music selection, but I don't really understand how either app could resolve my problem. The Tidal Master MQA files are obtained via bubbleUPnP which is why I have this installed on my microRendu, and so surely the 'damage' to the files has happened prior to them getting anywhere near the apps?

From looking at a number of threads it seems that both Sonore and the developers of bubbleUPnP had developed and were about to release MQA related updates at the beginning of summer. It appears they have decided to hold off (possibly indefinitely) from releasing the updates because of vocal opposition to MQA from some influential quarters of their product communities.     

So I may be stuck. It's a pity.

With mconnect you don't need BubbleUpnp at all as the app will feed Tidal or Qobuz to your upnp renderer so you don't use the bubbleupnp OpenHome version of your renderer, just the normal one. But you need something to perform the first unfold it just passesnthrn through untouched.

http://www.conversdigital.com/...roduct/product04.php

Thanks for the suggestion @SIMONPETERARNOLD. 

I have tried disabling the OpenHome renderer in BubbleUPnP and was able to use MConnect Lite to get access to Tidal. The result is the same. Tidal Masters play, but the MQA indicator still doesn't light up on the DAC.

By the way, why do you suggest the "something is needed to perform the first unfold". My understanding is that the Brooklyn+ DAC itself provides the full unfold, or am I mistaken? 

Hmack posted:

Thanks for the suggestion @SIMONPETERARNOLD. 

I have tried disabling the OpenHome renderer in BubbleUPnP and was able to use MConnect Lite to get access to Tidal. The result is the same. Tidal Masters play, but the MQA indicator still doesn't light up on the DAC.

By the way, why do you suggest the "something is needed to perform the first unfold". My understanding is that the Brooklyn+ DAC itself provides the full unfold, or am I mistaken? 

MQA has two stages The DAC is normally the final stage or the renderer which gives you the last unfold to fullres.  The decode is done via hardware  or software such as Tidals own desktop App, or Roon will do it. I would ask Mytech support but I suspect it only performs the final decode.

Edit. Just read up a bit and it does seem to perform both renderer and decoder so I suspect that maybe mconnect is not sending the unaldultered stream. Can you see if its sending it as 44.1/24?

Have you turned on the MQA decoder part though on the Brooklyn? There is an option to turn it off which you would if using a software or other hardware decoder for the first unfold.  As far as I know mconnect is not decoding at all just passing through so this would need to to be on. 

Hi,

Tidal does indeed carry out the full MQA 'unfold', and yes I do have the Brooklyn+ MQA filter switched on. As I explained in an earlier post, I have been able to receive and unfold MQA files by connecting my Windows 10 laptop directly to the Brooklyn+ over USB and using the Tidal desktop app to stream Tidal masters. When I do this, the MQA indicator lights up (green or blue light depending upon the specific file and how it was produced) just as it should.

I simply can't deliver MQA files 'properly' over ethernet via my Sonore microRendu either from Tidal (using MConnect) or from my small collection of MQA files on my NAS. All files and formats play, including MQA and DSD up to 32 bit, 352.8 kHz. The MQA files are just not recognised as being MQA and so no unfold occurs.

Jesus from Sonore support has told me that he is able to stream MQA files successfully to the Brooklyn DAC via his own microRendu, including using bubbleUPnP server, and so it's a bit of a mystery as to why this doesn't work on my setup. He has suggested upgrading the Sonicorbiter software on my microRendu from 2.3 to 2.7. This requires a new SD card for around only £20, so I might as well give it a go.     

Erm, some odd stetements here. As I understand MQA, an MQA renderer, which is a software process, can only do the “first unfold”, so cannot get as good as the original master, and unquestionably will have differences. The second unfold can only be done by an MQA enabled (and licenced) DAC, on a file on which the first unfold has been done, and so getting the file nominally back to the original master’s sound quality. But actually not quite perfectly as MQA is a lossy compression process, and received wisdom suggests there are some inevItable artefacts arising from the process, that possibly could affect the acceptability to individuals sensitive to tham.

I posted:

Tidal does indeed carry out the full MQA 'unfold', and yes I do have the Brooklyn+ MQA filter switched on.

Sorry - that was a typo. Of course Tidal doesn't carry out any of the MQA unfolding. What I had intended to say was that 'the Brooklyn+ DAC does indeed carry out the full MQA unfold, and yes I do have the Brooklyn+ filter switched on...……..'  

The Brooklyn DAC is an MQA enabled (and licensed) DAC, and just requires a bit perfect MQA file to be presented to it in order to be able to perform the full MQA unfold. The suggestion has been that something in the chain of my streaming system must be altering the file in some way in order to prevent this from happening. I just cannot identify where or why this is happening. As I mentioned previously, my Brooklyn+ DAC successfully carries out a full MQA unfold when I stream Tidal masters directly to it over USB using the Tidal app installed on my Windows 10 laptop. 

Whether or not the MQA process is a lossy compression process is an accurate, but a moot point. Any digital file (of any resolution) by its very nature could be deemed to be lossy. My only interest in MQA is in whether or not files encoded using MQA sound better to my ears, using my hi-fi equipment than non MQA versions of the same files. MQA will probably never be my primary source because my main system which is used primarily to play CD quality and hi-res locally streamed files from my NAS, is not MQA enabled and almost certainly will never be. However, my second system (now including the Mytek Brooklyn+ DAC) is used quite regularly to stream Tidal, and the prospect of obtaining hi-res sound on this system using Tidal Masters is very appealing. The sound of these 'master' files may or may not be subjectively as good as an equivalent 'standard' high resolution file, and that is no doubt where the real controversy and contention arises.    

A short update.

It's been quite an experience getting there, but Jesus from Sonore support has now completely resolved my MQA problem. Apparently there was a 'controller' on the Rendu that was not visible on the 'device management' web page, but which was by default setting the output 'volume' to 50%. He identified this by temporarily installing a 'player' bundled with the Rendu (ympd) and checking its default volume. This volume change meant that the file being 'streamed' to my Brooklyn+ DAC was not bit perfect. Not a problem until my requirement to play MQA files, but preventing the file from being recognised as MQA by my Brooklyn+ DAC.

A side effect of setting this 'volume' to 100% was that the stream was initially overloading the DAC circuits and causing horrendous distortion. However, once I had applied an appropriate amount of attenuation, achievable in the Brooklyn+ DAC from within its menu system (internal jumpers had to be changed in the Mk 1 version) everything is now pretty much perfect. I am now able to stream MQA files from both Tidal Masters and my local NAS via the Rendu to the Brooklyn DAC, and they are now fully 'unfolded' by the DAC as evidenced by the blue or green MQA indicators that light up appropriately. I am also, contrary to expectations, able to stream MQA over the Rendu using both the Lumin and MConnect control apps on my iPad, and I have ordered a firmware update (most are free, but this one requires a new SD card) which will apparently allow me to also use Linn Kazoo.  

The Brooklyn+ DAC (with the Mk II version of the sbooster linear power supply) is now sounding very good indeed and is definitely benefiting from 'burn in' which I hadn't really believed in up until now. To my ears and in my 2nd system, this combination sounds at least as good as my old Chord Hugo, and very possibly better. I can't directly compare the two because the Hugo seems to have completely died.   

Interestingly, having played about with quite a few Tidal MQA Masters, I have actually come across 2 albums that claim to be MQA encoded but don't show up as such on the Brooklyn. I guess this must be a problem at the Tidal end.

I won't have time for a week or so, but I will now be able to play about with Tidal MQA Masters and make up my own mind about them. I haven't had a chance to directly compare MQA encoded and non MQA encoded equivalents properly yet. First impressions are simply that the MQA albums I have tried so far (music I know I will like) sound very good indeed. I have also downloaded some of the excellent test files from 2L which are available for download in multiple different formats. Again, I haven't had the chance to properly compare them yet, but I have been absolutely gobsmacked by the tiny size of the MQA (original resolution) files compared with the equivalent 'standard' hi-res files.  

I can also now stop tearing my hair out while I still have some left.      

Well that is the key thing about MQA, lossy highdef.. but subjectively focussing on what is important in the higher bandwidth spectrum. On the other hand in a regular hidef PCM there can be a huge amount of wasted pace... and a lot of this space can be filled with lowlevel ultrasonic noise which makes FLAC compression less effective....

another experience with MQA. I was listening to the soundtrack of the movie "a star is born" (having really enjoyed it in the full dolby atmos cinema experience). On my car rig - apple Iphone - AudioQuest dragonfly red - vertere interconnect. 

This particular track "out of time" sounded not the way I remember from the cinema - something sounded a bit soft and lacking dynamics (particularly the opening sequence). So I think ok. it's the dragonfly.

some I came home and plugged in my Iphone into USB to my Chord Dave. Same problem.

So I was scratching my head, do I have a defective Iphone (it is brand new?)

Turns out no. 

What the problem was that on Tidal the album is MQA encoded and some how downloading this version to offline on my iPhone results in something that sounded different to me (even though I don't have MQA decoding)

there is another version of the album on Tidal (the one without the dialogues) which does not have MQA encoding.

And the dynamics and fun are back - on the iPhone itself, on the AudioQuest and on the Dave.

Not sure what to make of it, but all of a sudden - good old 44.1/1 bit version of the album  (without the MQA) sounds very good to me.

I will try the MQA version with my dragonfly later, but so far I am thinking it is a solution trying to solve a problem that isn't a problem?

I would not find it surprising to find that an MQA encoded file played with no unfolding at all  sounds different from a non-MQA file, whatever the resolution - the MQA file is not a bitperfect copy of the non-MQA file. Ditto a first stage unfolded MQA file - and indeed a fully onfolded one. How different, and whether or not the diffrence is pleasant so seen as an improvement, is another matter...

The new release of The White Album sounds very good in MQA. 

Hmack posted:

A short update.

It's been quite an experience getting there, but Jesus from Sonore support has now completely resolved my MQA problem. Apparently there was a 'controller' on the Rendu that was not visible on the 'device management' web page, but which was by default setting the output 'volume' to 50%. He identified this by temporarily installing a 'player' bundled with the Rendu (ympd) and checking its default volume. This volume change meant that the file being 'streamed' to my Brooklyn+ DAC was not bit perfect. Not a problem until my requirement to play MQA files, but preventing the file from being recognised as MQA by my Brooklyn+ DAC.

A side effect of setting this 'volume' to 100% was that the stream was initially overloading the DAC circuits and causing horrendous distortion. However, once I had applied an appropriate amount of attenuation, achievable in the Brooklyn+ DAC from within its menu system (internal jumpers had to be changed in the Mk 1 version) everything is now pretty much perfect. I am now able to stream MQA files from both Tidal Masters and my local NAS via the Rendu to the Brooklyn DAC, and they are now fully 'unfolded' by the DAC as evidenced by the blue or green MQA indicators that light up appropriately. I am also, contrary to expectations, able to stream MQA over the Rendu using both the Lumin and MConnect control apps on my iPad, and I have ordered a firmware update (most are free, but this one requires a new SD card) which will apparently allow me to also use Linn Kazoo.  

The Brooklyn+ DAC (with the Mk II version of the sbooster linear power supply) is now sounding very good indeed and is definitely benefiting from 'burn in' which I hadn't really believed in up until now. To my ears and in my 2nd system, this combination sounds at least as good as my old Chord Hugo, and very possibly better. I can't directly compare the two because the Hugo seems to have completely died.   

Interestingly, having played about with quite a few Tidal MQA Masters, I have actually come across 2 albums that claim to be MQA encoded but don't show up as such on the Brooklyn. I guess this must be a problem at the Tidal end.

I won't have time for a week or so, but I will now be able to play about with Tidal MQA Masters and make up my own mind about them. I haven't had a chance to directly compare MQA encoded and non MQA encoded equivalents properly yet. First impressions are simply that the MQA albums I have tried so far (music I know I will like) sound very good indeed. I have also downloaded some of the excellent test files from 2L which are available for download in multiple different formats. Again, I haven't had the chance to properly compare them yet, but I have been absolutely gobsmacked by the tiny size of the MQA (original resolution) files compared with the equivalent 'standard' hi-res files.  

I can also now stop tearing my hair out while I still have some left.      

Funny enough I did the think about volume and was going to ask if you had it set to 100%. Glad it's sorted for you.

SimonPeterArnold posted:

The new release of The White Album sounds very good in MQA. 

How does it sound as a downloaded himres album (non MQA)?

Dear All and mainly someone from the NAIM;

I wonder why the MQA decoding cannot be implemented to the Naim streamers (I own NDX + DAC + may other Naim pieces ) Even more simple streamers received this capability. I should expect better approach to the client's expectation from such a noble company. The clients spent quite significant amount of money and could have expectations or dreams??

If you search the forum you might find the answer(s).  A far as I can understand, the jury's still out on its future & there are concerns over the licence costs.     

This should not be a problem for a such Company!

MQA seem to have done a good job of getting the music industry talking about it,  some have taken it as a new standard for whatever reason,  maybe they see the marketplace hype as a selling opportunity,  who knows;    but I am not willing to pay a penny cent more for something that does not sound better than the current PCM & DSD formats.   

Let's see what is is going to happen

It would be beneficial to be able to use MQA from Tidal steaming as there are quite numerous tiltles there.

supmario posted:

It would be beneficial to be able to use MQA from Tidal steaming as there are quite numerous tiltles there.

I believe you can still play them without MQA unfolding, even using Naim kit. And even if the first software unfold was done in a Naim (or any other) streamer, unless you have an MQA DAC, you still won’t be back to the original resolution. Meanwhile it is said that the process, being a lossy compression then some form of “reconstruction” does not result in an identical file, there being some artefacts. These factors may be significant in manufacturers focussed on sound quality not rushing to adopt MQA (and Naim is not alone).

It is unclear whether the artefacts on full restoration would have an audible effect, while some people say they prefer the sound of the half-unfolded sound, so MQA is not necessarily bad - unless your focus is on fidelity to the original recording. To my mind it would be better for Tidal to stream the original hi res file in all its glory, not an MQA compressed version, or better still if the music is good buy it and play from one’s own store.

Thank you for the explanation but i am stuck to NAIM equipment and as a customer i can at least dream of implementing this functionality either to streamer or DAC.

supmario posted:

Thank you for the explanation but i am stuck to NAIM equipment and as a customer i can at least dream of implementing this functionality either to streamer or DAC.

Why not see if you can borrow an MQA capable DAC from your dealer and see if MQA encoded files are worthwhile for you. It may stop you worrying about the present lack of Naim MQA support ?

I own an MQA enabled DAC (Mytek Brooklyn+) and a streamer (Linn Klimax DS/1) that does not support MQA.

My personal subjective view is that many of the MQA Masters on Tidal sound 'better' than their 16 bit non MQA equivalents on Tidal (when compared using my Brooklyn+ DAC). I also believe that some MQA Masters on Tidal sound as good (to my ears) as hi-res versions streamed from my local NAS. I qualify this comparison because of the limited number of albums I have that overlap with the Tidal MQA Masters library.

I also own a couple of MQA hi-res albums, and to my ears they sound as good as (but not better than) the 'standard' hi-res versions I also own. They cost the same and so as far as I am concerned there is no advantage to be gained by purchasing an MQA hi-res file rather than the standard equivalent. I can play 'standard' hi-res files on both of my systems, but MQA unfolding is only available on one of them.

My view on the take-up of MQA (or lack of) by the audio industry is that there is so much controversy and almost evangelical opposition surrounding MQA in respect of licensing and DRM (imaginary or real) issues that it has somewhat stalled.

I know of one audio manufacturer who developed an upgrade to accommodate MQA unfolding and broadcast a release date for that update, only to choose to delay the release indefinitely due to direct pressure from opponents of MQA. I believe that Naim has stated that it is keeping a watching brief on MQA and may react to any increase in take up at some later date. Chord and Linn by contrast have stated that they intend not to support MQA at any point in the future. However, it is quite interesting to note that Linn was equally opposed to DSD, but chose to support DSD in the latest generation of their top of the range streamer.