250 DR vs 300

As much as i loved my 300 at the time, in pure practical terms it's two boxes to site and the Burndy cables are a PITA. I'd be cautious if you are thinking of changing without a chance to try.

John's SC suggestion is a good move and will make the best of the 282. 

I can't comment on the 282, but auditioned both the 300DR and the 250DR with a 272 (+555). In my room (6m x 5m) with ProAc K6 speakers the 300 was a great disappointment, producing overblown, overpowering, muddy, booming bass. As soon as it was replaced by the 250 it was as if a curtain had lifted, and I heard music better than anything I had experienced before.

I'm not criticising the 300, or claiming the 250 is a better amp, simply relating my own experience. Both amps had been fully 'run in'. For whatever reason, in my situation, the 250 was the one that did it for me.

Timmo1341 posted:

I can't comment on the 282, but auditioned both the 300DR and the 250DR with a 272 (+555). In my room (6m x 5m) with ProAc K6 speakers the 300 was a great disappointment, producing overblown, overpowering, muddy, booming bass. As soon as it was replaced by the 250 it was as if a curtain had lifted, and I heard music better than anything I had experienced before.

I'm not criticising the 300, or claiming the 250 is a better amp, simply relating my own experience. Both amps had been fully 'run in'. For whatever reason, in my situation, the 250 was the one that did it for me.

Is it possible it was a burndy issue ?

analogmusic posted:
Timmo1341 posted:

I can't comment on the 282, but auditioned both the 300DR and the 250DR with a 272 (+555). In my room (6m x 5m) with ProAc K6 speakers the 300 was a great disappointment, producing overblown, overpowering, muddy, booming bass. As soon as it was replaced by the 250 it was as if a curtain had lifted, and I heard music better than anything I had experienced before.

I'm not criticising the 300, or claiming the 250 is a better amp, simply relating my own experience. Both amps had been fully 'run in'. For whatever reason, in my situation, the 250 was the one that did it for me.

Is it possible it was a burndy issue ?

I believe not. All leads and connections were checked and rechecked by my dealer. Consultation with ProAc revealed this was not a first in respect of the 300''s interaction with the K series in smaller rooms. I dare say I could have looked to change speakers, but the K6 is exquisite, and matched with the 250 is all I can imagine ever wanting!

Bob_B posted:

I used to run a 250 (non DR) and replaced it with a 300 (non DR). Good as the 250 was, the 300 blew it out of the water in every department. Can't add anything re: DR differential though.

Same here but with DR versions. I recently acquired a pre-loved 300DR to replace my 250DR and the difference is significant in all areas. Source is a 272/XPS DR. As much as the 250DR was an improvement over the 200 DR it replaced, the 300 DR is a game changer - it sounds like live music.

 
rightcoastants posted:
Bob_B posted:

I used to run a 250 (non DR) and replaced it with a 300 (non DR). Good as the 250 was, the 300 blew it out of the water in every department. Can't add anything re: DR differential though.

Same here but with DR versions. I recently acquired a pre-loved 300DR to replace my 250DR and the difference is significant in all areas. Source is a 272/XPS DR. As much as the 250DR was an improvement over the 200 DR it replaced, the 300 DR is a game changer - it sounds like live music.

 

If nobody would hear a 500 - everybody would be highly content with the 300 it's a real masterpiece and great value for money.

The DR enhancement was a huge uplift in capability for the power amps; much bigger than the preamps imo. The 300 was good, but the 300DR is sublime. A 250DR vs 300 would be a tough call, so why not wait, save a bit more and get a 300DR. It's the right answer....

My old 300 nor DR was in a different league to a 250DR that I had at home for a month when my 500 was in for the DR mod. Having said that, a back to back listen was impossible and we all know how reliable musical memory is.

As with the non DR 250, it's not really a case of "better than". They sound so different (as does a 500 to a 300) that you may as well be in a different universe. Past that, it's down to personal preference.

 

James n posted:

As much as i loved my 300 at the time, in pure practical terms it's two boxes to site and the Burndy cables are a PITA. I'd be cautious if you are thinking of changing without a chance to try.

John's SC suggestion is a good move and will make the best of the 282. 

The NAP 300 DR or non-DR will surely sound different from the NAP 250 DR and in most cases better though I understand few might find the 250 DR to be superior in isolated cases. Nevertheless, as you have said it's two boxes so that eventually ruled out my intention to try the 300 or the Supercap as both will add 2 additional levels to my rack which will add more clutter.

rightcoastants posted:
Bob_B posted:

I used to run a 250 (non DR) and replaced it with a 300 (non DR). Good as the 250 was, the 300 blew it out of the water in every department. Can't add anything re: DR differential though.

Same here but with DR versions. I recently acquired a pre-loved 300DR to replace my 250DR and the difference is significant in all areas. Source is a 272/XPS DR. As much as the 250DR was an improvement over the 200 DR it replaced, the 300 DR is a game changer - it sounds like live music.

 

I recently changed my 250dr for a 300dr the difference is substantial best upgrade I've ever done.

analogmusic posted:

how does 300 DR improve on 250 DR

In my system the 300dr has far more grip and control a far better soundstage low level listening is another plus point just better all round but then given the price difference so it should.

analogmusic posted:

I'm curious about the differences between a 250 DR and a 300 Non DR

Has anyone been able to compare these with a 282/HC?

 

Yes recently made the choice to purchase SH 300 from my dealer over ex demo 250DR

my system was then LP12/NDX/282/HCDR/200 - my plan was to add 250DR, spent a long time with them on demo,  when the time was right contacted my dealer about changing - they had just had in a PX of a non DR 300 -

perfect match for my system, love the control, focus and seperation of the 300 plenty of grip - different sound to the 250DR, which I prefer even non DR the 300 is a superb amp - love the musicality - system is now LP12/NDX/282/HCDR/300 into B&W 805N

plan in new year is to DR the 300 but got to say it's damn good non DR

antony d posted:
analogmusic posted:

I'm curious about the differences between a 250 DR and a 300 Non DR

Has anyone been able to compare these with a 282/HC?

 

Yes recently made the choice to purchase SH 300 from my dealer over ex demo 250DR

my system was then LP12/NDX/282/HCDR/200 - my plan was to add 250DR, spent a long time with them on demo,  when the time was right contacted my dealer about changing - they had just had in a PX of a non DR 300 -

perfect match for my system, love the control, focus and seperation of the 300 plenty of grip - different sound to the 250DR, which I prefer even non DR the 300 is a superb amp - love the musicality - system is now LP12/NDX/282/HCDR/300 into B&W 805N

plan in new year is to DR the 300 but got to say it's damn good non DR

Wow!

The Forum at it's best!

Which upgrade Analogmusic!

SC, or SCDR

300, or wait on 300 DR

 

Or, just enjoy that sweet System you have!

Enjoy your Music, The Why we do this!

Allante93!

thanks for responses every0one

I would need to do a side by side comparison, hopefully soon.

I heard a 552DR/300DR and was totally mesmerized by it, but I need to isolate which part was 55DR2 and which part was 300 DR. And it was a Superlumina full loom.

Or it could be all of these with 36,000 US $ Sonus Faber Amati Futura speakers.

Never listen to much more expensive systems, it will mess with your head 

analogmusic posted:
GraemeH posted:

Having owned a 300 for some years, and now a 250DR, I'd take the 250DR over a used 300 any day of the week.

G

Very interesting... what are your reasons for this ?

The DR brings a certain effortless 'hear through' transparency to the 250. I always found the 300 a bit tight and lean by comparison...but musical memory can be deceiving.

I also found the Burndys a bit temperamental. 

G

This thread just demonstrates that asking opinions does not add much value... What did folks respond on the original question of 250DR vs 300?

  • Having owned a 300 for some years, and now a 250DR, I'd take the 250DR over a used 300 any day of the week

  • NAP 300 without a doubt.

  • The 300 was a great disappointment, producing overblown, overpowering, muddy, booming bass. As soon as it was replaced by the 250 it was as if a curtain had lifted, and I heard music better than anything I had experienced before.

  • My old 300 nor DR was in a different league to a 250DR that I had at home for a month

That is 2 votes for 300, 2 for 250DR.... The only solution is: listen yourself.

The 250 and 300 are so different in character. I can see how changing the sound of a 250 might make it more enjoyable. But it will never sound remotely like a 300. Not possible. Any more than a 300 could approach a 500 or a 200 could approach a 250. Going up the hierarchy doesn't give you more of the same once you clear the 200.

analogmusic posted:

how does 300 DR improve on 250 DR

The 300DR made the speakers seem much, much bigger.  I've heard the 250.2 v 250DR v 300DR and would say that the performance improvement between the 250DR and 300DR was very significantly bigger than between the 250.2 and 250DR.

That said, I would agree with JN earlier in the thread. Putting a SCDR on your 282 would be the next step I would make.  

 

I owned a 250-2 for years, and I'm not sure I would ever use the word transparent to describe it's overall sound. I have auditioned the 250-2 DR, and while I feel there is an improvement over the older amp, it's not a very large difference, I still wouldn't call the DR version a transparent sounding amp. 

Don't get me wrong, I think the 250-2 DR or non DR, is a great amp, but I believe the 300 takes things to a different level. At least it did in my system and speakers. If I didn't feel guilty about spending the money, the 300 DR would be sitting in my rack, I think my SN2 with a SCDR, easily competes with the 250-2 I owned. Not so much with a 300 DR.

I recently asked the same question and ended up going for non DR300 this was from 250-2. The only side by side was when I traded in we tested both amps one after the other on some big Odeon (I think) speakers and the 250-2 sounded extremely lightweight next to the 300 just smaller, thinner and narrower.

Bob the Builder posted:

I recently asked the same question and ended up going for non DR300 this was from 250-2. The only side by side was when I traded in we tested both amps one after the other on some big Odeon (I think) speakers and the 250-2 sounded extremely lightweight next to the 300 just smaller, thinner and narrower.

I am about to trade my olive 250 for a non-dr 300 (assuming I can agree price to change with dealer whilst trading in a few additional bits and pieces!). It will be due a service in 2-3 years, which sounds perfect for timing to save up for that + dr

 

then I will have “arrived” at my target (subject to Fraim, ps update to my LP12, speakers, pre amp...😊) of NDS/300 that I have been aiming at for the last 6-7 years

Having just re-read this thread, a thought has occurred to me. Would anyone realistically expect a 300DR owner to ever say anything other than how much better his/her amp sounds than any 250? It's pretty obvious they wouldn't have gone out and spent over £4k more if they hadn't preferred the sound (unless, like one or two on this forum, they bought 'blind' in the belief that bigger and more expensive = guaranteed better, regardless of speakers, room characteristics etc.). They can describe as much as they like the 'iron grip' and 'transparency', but I would suggest that once the side by side testing is over you rapidly become accustomed to that which you're hearing every day. This isn't a meaningful debate, but rather an 'after the fact' justification of expenditure. My justification for these thoughts is, as stated previously, setting out to buy the 300DR having read all reviews, forum comments etc. Money was not an issue, a budget having been set aside for my upgrade (including SL speaker cables). The dealer demo session saw the 300DR confirmed for home demo, but SL speaker cables losing out to cheaper Chord Epic Reference. It was the home demo that changed everything. That same 300DR simply did not suit my speakers in my room, whereas the 250DR did. All the reviews and other people's opinions counted for nothing. In my circumstances the 300DR was not the 'better' amp - end of story.

The point of my ramblings? There is no such thing as 'better' in anything other than ones own circumstances and listening environment. You can argue on specifications until the cows come home, but the proof of the pudding, unless you're simply obsessed with climbing 'up' the Naim tree, is in the listening. By all means tell me what you prefer, but please don't try and tell me it's better.

In my case it wasn't a matter of spending more. I just opted not to spend anything and stick with my non Naim amplification. That was how unimpressed I was with the 250. Didn't think we could ever get a system as good as one which would contain a 300. But never say never.

As for "better",  see above. Well said.

Timmo1341 posted:

Having just re-read this thread, a thought has occurred to me. Would anyone realistically expect a 300DR owner to ever say anything other than how much better his/her amp sounds than any 250? It's pretty obvious they wouldn't have gone out and spent over £4k more if they hadn't preferred the sound (unless, like one or two on this forum, they bought 'blind' in the belief that bigger and more expensive = guaranteed better, regardless of speakers, room characteristics etc.). They can describe as much as they like the 'iron grip' and 'transparency', but I would suggest that once the side by side testing is over you rapidly become accustomed to that which you're hearing every day. This isn't a meaningful debate, but rather an 'after the fact' justification of expenditure. My justification for these thoughts is, as stated previously, setting out to buy the 300DR having read all reviews, forum comments etc. Money was not an issue, a budget having been set aside for my upgrade (including SL speaker cables). The dealer demo session saw the 300DR confirmed for home demo, but SL speaker cables losing out to cheaper Chord Epic Reference. It was the home demo that changed everything. That same 300DR simply did not suit my speakers in my room, whereas the 250DR did. All the reviews and other people's opinions counted for nothing. In my circumstances the 300DR was not the 'better' amp - end of story.

The point of my ramblings? There is no such thing as 'better' in anything other than ones own circumstances and listening environment. You can argue on specifications until the cows come home, but the proof of the pudding, unless you're simply obsessed with climbing 'up' the Naim tree, is in the listening. By all means tell me what you prefer, but please don't try and tell me it's better.

I know what you mean Timmo and agree with your essential point. The next step up the hierarchy isn't always better.  It has to judged in your own system, in your own room and by your own ears.  This has happened to me a few times. I tried a 555PSDR on my nDAC and in the system I had then it did too much and I initially stuck with the PSU I had and then preferred the non-DR 555PS; I tried a 252 (twice) thinking in the Naim hierarchy it must be 'better' than my 282. I wasn't (for me).  

Timmo1341 posted:

Having just re-read this thread, a thought has occurred to me. Would anyone realistically expect a 300DR owner to ever say anything other than how much better his/her amp sounds than any 250? It's pretty obvious they wouldn't have gone out and spent over £4k more if they hadn't preferred the sound (unless, like one or two on this forum, they bought 'blind' in the belief that bigger and more expensive = guaranteed better, regardless of speakers, room characteristics etc.). They can describe as much as they like the 'iron grip' and 'transparency', but I would suggest that once the side by side testing is over you rapidly become accustomed to that which you're hearing every day. This isn't a meaningful debate, but rather an 'after the fact' justification of expenditure. My justification for these thoughts is, as stated previously, setting out to buy the 300DR having read all reviews, forum comments etc. Money was not an issue, a budget having been set aside for my upgrade (including SL speaker cables). The dealer demo session saw the 300DR confirmed for home demo, but SL speaker cables losing out to cheaper Chord Epic Reference. It was the home demo that changed everything. That same 300DR simply did not suit my speakers in my room, whereas the 250DR did. All the reviews and other people's opinions counted for nothing. In my circumstances the 300DR was not the 'better' amp - end of story.

The point of my ramblings? There is no such thing as 'better' in anything other than ones own circumstances and listening environment. You can argue on specifications until the cows come home, but the proof of the pudding, unless you're simply obsessed with climbing 'up' the Naim tree, is in the listening. By all means tell me what you prefer, but please don't try and tell me it's better.

No I actually heard the amp I was trading in next to the amp I was buying with the same pre and speakers and in the same room and the 300 was better in every respect and when I got it home my partner who had not been at the demo agreed that the 300 sounded better in every respect it had nothing to do with justification of expenditure, being duped, buying blind, forum advice, climbing the Naim ladder or anything else for that matter it was just better in the dealers room and in my room.

The thing you are missing Timmo is that not everyone on this forum can afford to buy new and therefore cannot get home demo's and multiple amps from dealers but of course when you are spending over 10k dealers are happy to let you demo whatever you like. 

Bob the Builder posted:
Timmo1341 posted:

Having just re-read this thread, a thought has occurred to me. Would anyone realistically expect a 300DR owner to ever say anything other than how much better his/her amp sounds than any 250? It's pretty obvious they wouldn't have gone out and spent over £4k more if they hadn't preferred the sound (unless, like one or two on this forum, they bought 'blind' in the belief that bigger and more expensive = guaranteed better, regardless of speakers, room characteristics etc.). They can describe as much as they like the 'iron grip' and 'transparency', but I would suggest that once the side by side testing is over you rapidly become accustomed to that which you're hearing every day. This isn't a meaningful debate, but rather an 'after the fact' justification of expenditure. My justification for these thoughts is, as stated previously, setting out to buy the 300DR having read all reviews, forum comments etc. Money was not an issue, a budget having been set aside for my upgrade (including SL speaker cables). The dealer demo session saw the 300DR confirmed for home demo, but SL speaker cables losing out to cheaper Chord Epic Reference. It was the home demo that changed everything. That same 300DR simply did not suit my speakers in my room, whereas the 250DR did. All the reviews and other people's opinions counted for nothing. In my circumstances the 300DR was not the 'better' amp - end of story.

The point of my ramblings? There is no such thing as 'better' in anything other than ones own circumstances and listening environment. You can argue on specifications until the cows come home, but the proof of the pudding, unless you're simply obsessed with climbing 'up' the Naim tree, is in the listening. By all means tell me what you prefer, but please don't try and tell me it's better.

No I actually heard the amp I was trading in next to the amp I was buying with the same pre and speakers and in the same room and the 300 was better in every respect and when I got it home my partner who had not been at the demo agreed that the 300 sounded better in every respect it had nothing to do with justification of expenditure, being duped, buying blind, forum advice, climbing the Naim ladder or anything else for that matter it was just better in the dealers room and in my room.

The thing you are missing Timmo is that not everyone on this forum can afford to buy new and therefore cannot get home demo's and multiple amps from dealers but of course when you are spending over 10k dealers are happy to let you demo whatever you like. 

Bob, I think, having read and re-read your post, that we essentially agree. I said the 300 was the better amp in the dealer's room, but not in my lounge (65 sq. mtrs vs 30 sq. mtrs).

As for not being able to buy new and thus get home demo, I guess my response is you're taking a bit of a gamble, although I suppose selling on already second hand amps won't involve a huge financial loss. Pleased your acquisition worked out for you, you just need to accept not all remarks are directed personally at you, just those whom the cap fits!

Yes there is a slight risk of buying used and although with the 300 I did get to listen although only at the dealers I have bought many items 'blind' but with Naim if you are careful then you never lose out when it comes to selling on.

Timmo I didn't think the post was aimed at me personally I'm not twelve but admittedly  I did respond in a slightly annoyed tone in response to the slighly condescending tone of your post.  

I bought my 300 DR without audition, though having swapped from 250.2 to 300 with SL2s in a previous life, I knew exactly what I’d be getting. Actually, I didn’t, in retrospect, because the change I got was way beyond my hopes and expectations. The 300 has transformed my speakers - it’s like they were sleeping with the 250DR and they are now exuberant and full of life. Other than my speakers, which I bought having had a pair before, I didn’t listen to any of my system before buying the various parts, though I did speak to Naim and a couple of dealers whose opinions I value. Perhaps that makes me a bad person, or simply a fool. Oh well. 

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