252 or CD555 ?

One thing I have discovered over the years is that the Naim pre-amps don't particularly like to have a CD player right above them - it doesn't matter whether it's one with its own internal PS or just a head unit, keep the CD player and the pre-amp away from one another and definitely not just above or below each other. In more recent years I've extended this to include any digital source.

Richard Dane posted:

One thing I have discovered over the years is that the Naim pre-amps don't particularly like to have a CD player right above them - it doesn't matter whether it's one with its own internal PS or just a head unit, keep the CD player and the pre-amp away from one another and definitely not just above or below each other. In more recent years I've extended this to include any digital source.

Richard, Would say that this extends to nDAC powered off a 555DR?

Regarding other comments, I have tried to give some units more space (24cm shelf interval) like the 300 head, and on the brawn stack the 300DR power supply. My standard spacing is 18cm which is a bit more than normal.

Phil

Filipe, yes, although impact seems smaller than a CD player, my suspicion is that it is still there to a lesser extent.  If it's unavoidable then on a Fraim, a spare shelf is nice, otherwise, I find that intermediate levels give enough space to lessen impact, but still would avoid a CD player here, if possible. 

The ideal, as others have vouched here, is to have the pre-amp on the top shelf and then a good bit of space beneath.  Ironically though, I can't reasily do that myself as I have too many sources that can't fit on a normal inner shelf and must be on top - Reel to Reel, Turntables, Nak ZX-9 (OK, I admit it will - just - fit under an intermediate level) - but I keep digital kit away and have the TT on top of an intermediate level, then 552 on another intermediate level, then Superline on the bottom shelf.  I might though experiment with having the TT off to one side on an Audiotech table, thus allowing the 552 to sit on top.  Only problem is it's quite a stretch when there are three Fraim stacks already.  It will have to wait for the next big system strip down, but right now I'm enjoying the music too much to bother.

Richard thanks for your informative reply. What are the Naim shelf spacings? 18cm must be close to intermediate.  

I posted this photo recently either on this or Nigel’s thread. I’ve got some things right. I did swap the TT and CD when I installed the Naim glass.

I could listen to vinyl with the nDAC off to see if there is a difference (555DR off as well?). The Naim glass was transformative. My dealer recommended the HiFi Racks and I got a bit trapped as my system grew.

Life is full of compromises! Shame the politicians can’t on Brexit! 

Phil

Richard Dane posted:

Phil, the available height under an intermediate level is quoted as 180mm.

Thank you Richard. It’s a big shelf at 250mm spacing. Maybe when the a Superline comes I should remove the nDAC, but would the CDX2 powered by the 555 start affecting the Superline below it?

Phil

In your stack I'd be tempted to put the Superline where the DAC is currently positioned and move the DAC to under the CDX2. Superline can be an open window to noise interference, so positioning to minimise outside effects is key - then it's basically silent (and sounds sublime).

Richard Dane posted:

In your stack I'd be tempted to put the Superline where the DAC is currently positioned and move the DAC to under the CDX2. Superline can be an open window to noise interference, so positioning to minimise outside effects is key - then it's basically silent (and sounds sublime).

Richard, So you are saying the Superline does not mind being near the TT and preamp? Rega advise side by side for TT and Aria/Aura with preference of TT on right to maximise distance between MC cartridge and phonostage, but mine are well separated anyhow.

I’ve always assumed that if boxes are not operating that their magnetic fields will be lower. Hence different source boxes together. I could put the nDAC where the CDs are (see photo above).

Phil

Phil, it certainly doesn't mind being close to the Pre-amp.  Not sure about the TT itself, so you'll need to find out.  You could always swap the Pre-amp and Superline around level-wise to see if it's better.  You could also move whatever the powered box is at the bottom of the left stack over to the right and move the CDs.  It'll be worth spending some time to experiment a bit.

Richard Dane posted:

Ah OK, thanks HH.  Yes, leave that there. 

Indeed, the Rega wall mount for the RP10 would be a great idea if the wall is solid enough to take it. 

Phil, is Fraim a possible option here?

Richard, HH doesn’t like HiFi Racks but with the addition of Fraim glass I think it sounds better than I have heard 552/500 sound at HQ and one Forum member with Fraim. But then HQ was through top Focal Utopias and the forum member had Naim SLs ! There are others that feel that Fraim glass is what deals with the vibration problem. I have a beautiful room filling sound.

We are only having this exchange because Richard suggested nDAC above preamp is not his favourite position. I am always looking to improve what I have through setup, but ....If there was a top end reference system at HQ customers would be able tell what represents the ultimate.

It would be difficult to put the TT on the wall.

I’d welcome a visit from anyone to hear my system or for me to hear theirs.

Phil

Filipe posted:
Richard Dane posted:

Ah OK, thanks HH.  Yes, leave that there. 

Indeed, the Rega wall mount for the RP10 would be a great idea if the wall is solid enough to take it. 

Phil, is Fraim a possible option here?

Richard, HH doesn’t like HiFi Racks but with the addition of Fraim glass I think it sounds better than I have heard 552/500 sound at HQ and one Forum member with Fraim. But then HQ was through top Focal Utopias and the forum member had Naim SLs ! There are others that feel that Fraim glass is what deals with the vibration problem. I have a beautiful room filling sound.

We are only having this exchange because Richard suggested nDAC above preamp is not his favourite position. I am always looking to improve what I have through setup, but ....If there was a top end reference system at HQ customers would be able tell what represents the ultimate.

It would be difficult to put the TT on the wall.

I’d welcome a visit from anyone to hear my system or for me to hear theirs.

Phil

Earlier this year I changed my rack to full fraim .... I took quite a while deciding if it would be worth the expense.....

I certainly was not disappointed.... for whatever reason full fraim just seems to work extremely well...

it just really allows the black boxes to give optimum performance

the only down side is the cost....

Hi Wenger, You are welcome to visit me with some CDs and take a listen. I’m near Gloucester, not that far from you. I am sure Fraim is good, but I would need there to be a good reason to change when I’m being blown away by the music. 

P.S. I have a 252.

Phil

Filipe posted:
Richard Dane posted:

Ah OK, thanks HH.  Yes, leave that there. 

Indeed, the Rega wall mount for the RP10 would be a great idea if the wall is solid enough to take it. 

Phil, is Fraim a possible option here?

Richard, HH doesn’t like HiFi Racks but with the addition of Fraim glass I think it sounds better than I have heard 552/500 sound at HQ and one Forum member with Fraim. But then HQ was through top Focal Utopias and the forum member had Naim SLs ! There are others that feel that Fraim glass is what deals with the vibration problem. I have a beautiful room filling sound.

We are only having this exchange because Richard suggested nDAC above preamp is not his favourite position. I am always looking to improve what I have through setup, but ....If there was a top end reference system at HQ customers would be able tell what represents the ultimate.

It would be difficult to put the TT on the wall.

I’d welcome a visit from anyone to hear my system or for me to hear theirs.

Phil

Phil, I’m sure your Podium Reference is a lot better than the Podium Slimline I used once, which was useful only as firewood. It gave a horrible leaden sound, just awful. I only mentioned the Fraim because I recently got a used one to replace the already very fine Quadraspire SVT and the difference was very significant. It just made everything a lot more musically satisfying. I’d sort of forgotten how good it is - I’ve had one before, about 12 years ago, but sold it when I downsized. It only cost me £200 to do the upgrade, but of course with more boxes it’s a lot of money. I note your offer of visits - I find long journeys difficult, but you’d be most welcome to call in at Emsworth should you fancy it. 

Filipe posted:

Hi Wenger, You are welcome to visit me with some CDs and take a listen. I’m near Gloucester, not that far from you. I am sure Fraim is good, but I would need there to be a good reason to change when I’m being blown away by the music. 

P.S. I have a 252.

Phil

Thanks for your kind offer.... if ever theirs a possibility of heading your way it would be great to meet and hear your system.

As for the fraim.....yes it is extremely good but if you are blown away by how your system sounds as it is, then I would say ‘why change ‘...

There is a lot of truth in that. I was perfectly happy with my Quadraspire but it was a bit big and when I saw a four level Fraim, in the finish that matches my speakers, not too far way from me, I thought ‘why not?’ As it is, I am delighted with the improvement. It looks nicer too, though it’s a pain to dust. For years I swore I’d never have another one. Ah well. 

hungryhalibut posted:
Filipe posted:
Richard Dane posted:

Ah OK, thanks HH.  Yes, leave that there. 

Indeed, the Rega wall mount for the RP10 would be a great idea if the wall is solid enough to take it. 

Phil, is Fraim a possible option here?

Richard, HH doesn’t like HiFi Racks but with the addition of Fraim glass I think it sounds better than I have heard 552/500 sound at HQ and one Forum member with Fraim. But then HQ was through top Focal Utopias and the forum member had Naim SLs ! There are others that feel that Fraim glass is what deals with the vibration problem. I have a beautiful room filling sound.

We are only having this exchange because Richard suggested nDAC above preamp is not his favourite position. I am always looking to improve what I have through setup, but ....If there was a top end reference system at HQ customers would be able tell what represents the ultimate.

It would be difficult to put the TT on the wall.

I’d welcome a visit from anyone to hear my system or for me to hear theirs.

Phil

Phil, I’m sure your Podium Reference is a lot better than the Podium Slimline I used once, which was useful only as firewood. It gave a horrible leaden sound, just awful. I only mentioned the Fraim because I recently got a used one to replace the already very fine Quadraspire SVT and the difference was very significant. It just made everything a lot more musically satisfying. I’d sort of forgotten how good it is - I’ve had one before, about 12 years ago, but sold it when I downsized. It only cost me £200 to do the upgrade, but of course with more boxes it’s a lot of money. I note your offer of visits - I find long journeys difficult, but you’d be most welcome to call in at Emsworth should you fancy it. 

HH, Thank you for your kind offer. As it happens Emsworth is not that far (30 miles) from Winchester where my son lives. We visit weekly on Thursdays.

I do agree with you about the wood on its own, but then the Fraim Lite has wood and can be upgraded. So why not others for about £80/shelf. When I ordered a Uniti 3 years ago I didn’t know where it was all heading! The dealer recommended the stands. It was only through this forum that I started getting the sound I wanted!

Talk of small speaker tweaks recently has been a real revelation.

Phil

hungryhalibut posted:

There is a lot of truth in that. I was perfectly happy with my Quadraspire but it was a bit big and when I saw a four level Fraim, in the finish that matches my speakers, not too far way from me, I thought ‘why not?’ As it is, I am delighted with the improvement. It looks nicer too, though it’s a pain to dust. For years I swore I’d never have another one. Ah well. 

For an extra £200 it’s an extremely cheap change to make.....im not surprised that you are delighted.

I assume it’s the glass shelves an isolation that Naim boxes seem to thrive on 

Filipe posted:
Richard Dane posted:

Ah OK, thanks HH.  Yes, leave that there. 

Indeed, the Rega wall mount for the RP10 would be a great idea if the wall is solid enough to take it. 

Phil, is Fraim a possible option here?

Richard, HH doesn’t like HiFi Racks but with the addition of Fraim glass I think it sounds better than I have heard 552/500 sound at HQ and one Forum member with Fraim. But then HQ was through top Focal Utopias and the forum member had Naim SLs ! There are others that feel that Fraim glass is what deals with the vibration problem. I have a beautiful room filling sound.

We are only having this exchange because Richard suggested nDAC above preamp is not his favourite position. I am always looking to improve what I have through setup, but ....If there was a top end reference system at HQ customers would be able tell what represents the ultimate.

It would be difficult to put the TT on the wall.

I’d welcome a visit from anyone to hear my system or for me to hear theirs.

Phil

SLs?

Filipe posted:

Could I put my CDX2 above the 555DR as I only use it for digital output nDAC. Would the digital signal be messed up?

I’ve already moved the TT PS out of the way.

I could then put the nDAC where CDX2 and not have anything near 252 or TT.

Phil

The CDX2.2 as a transport is still a source, Phil, so really deserves a place on the 'brain' rack.  And the CDX2.2 in this form is still sensitive. For example, I found giving it a separate PSU, an XP5XS sited on the 'brawn' rack, gave a good performance lift because the transformer in its back box was then not needed so wasn't interfering with the digital output circuits etc.

As regards the nDAC, my dealer told me that its noise generally radiates upwards so if it is on you brain rack you should probably avoid siting it on the shelf immediately below you pre-amp.    

Like Phil the glass and Naim cups & balls improved things significantly over the wood so I must agree that the glass and balls is probably the key thing.

I’ve moved the 252 to the top shelf in place of the NDS and, already, it sounds more controlled. Interesting.

MDS posted:
Filipe posted:

Could I put my CDX2 above the 555DR as I only use it for digital output nDAC. Would the digital signal be messed up?

I’ve already moved the TT PS out of the way.

I could then put the nDAC where CDX2 and not have anything near 252 or TT.

Phil

The CDX2.2 as a transport is still a source, Phil, so really deserves a place on the 'brain' rack.  And the CDX2.2 in this form is still sensitive. For example, I found giving it a separate PSU, an XP5XS sited on the 'brawn' rack, gave a good performance lift because the transformer in its back box was then not needed so wasn't interfering with the digital output circuits etc.

As regards the nDAC, my dealer told me that its noise generally radiates upwards so if it is on you brain rack you should probably avoid siting it on the shelf immediately below you pre-amp.    

I almost have two brain racks because I have two empty shelves above the 3 power supplies. I have extra space (same as intermediate Fraim) above the 300 head and its PS. I think DB recommenced that, and I thought it worked.

The simplest solution is longer legs (£40 for a set) for the 252 shelf. It has the benefit of keeping grandchildren away from the CDP and TT as they grow!

The other one is an ND555 instead of nDAC and CDX2!

Of course if there was a new 500 series DAC it might not be ND555 as I’m not a fan of the App and my 16GB iPad is bursting the seams after movie making.

If anyone would like to see my pilgrimage movie on iOS then let me know. Best with Apple TV. There might be some arm twisting though!

Phil

Richard Dane posted:

In your stack I'd be tempted to put the Superline where the DAC is currently positioned and move the DAC to under the CDX2. Superline can be an open window to noise interference, so positioning to minimise outside effects is key - then it's basically silent (and sounds sublime).

It seems to me that this is worth trying as there is no power supply in the Superline to mess up the MC cartridge. The Aria has a PS and therefore needs to be as far away from the TT cartridge as possible. 

I have run TT/Aria with nDAC/CDX2 off with no obvious SQ degradation. From what you are saying the Superline is sensitive so I must give it a fair chance when I demo it. 

Phil

After having a chat with my dealer, i have decided to have a dem of the 252, it’s an ideal opportunity with Xmas holidays on the horizon.

It with be interesting to compare with the 282... and also to utilise fully the capabilities of my  Supercap dr once hooked up to the 252.

wenger2015 posted:

After having a chat with my dealer, i have decided to have a dem of the 252, it’s an ideal opportunity with Xmas holidays on the horizon.

It with be interesting to compare with the 282... and also to utilise fully the capabilities of my  Supercap dr once hooked up to the 252.

A good decision. I feel my music collection can be fully enjoyed with the 252, something that could not be said when I had a 282. Make sure that you choose the 252 for that reason.

Keep us informed. Be warned it can take an age before the 252 gives of its best. Mine has certainly improved heaps.

Phil

Not sure if my dealer is providing a demo 252 or if it’s a new box.... 

but I am under no pressure, the demo can be as long as necessary....

the 252 is often referred to as being ‘grown up’ compared to the 282.... so looks forward to finding out just why I it’s described that way...

Wenger, I too will be interested to hear about how the 252 compares with your 282 in your system at home. Remember the 252 is even fussier about set up than the 282 but glad to see you have 2 columns of Fraim and good cabling. I know there has been some recent debate on here about kit ordering in Fraim racks but I am still of the opinion that the 252 sounds best given air around it on he top shelf.

Good luck.

BTW, I loved my 252 too.

nigelb posted:

Wenger, I too will be interested to hear about how the 252 compares with your 282 in your system at home. Remember the 252 is even fussier about set up than the 282 but glad to see you have 2 columns of Fraim and good cabling. I know there has been some recent debate on here about kit ordering in Fraim racks but I am still of the opinion that the 252 sounds best given air around it on he top shelf.

Good luck.

BTW, I loved my 252 too.

Ok, that’s interesting....may have to drop the cdx2 down a shelf for the 252 to sit on top....

S3 posted:

My 252 is now on the top shelf above the NDS and the whole thing is now starting to sound like it should do. Well worth trying the 252 on top....

Hi David, How would you describe the difference?

One small aside: the record mute switch makes a noticeable sound difference, and therefore we are advised to mute the record (preamp Line output). It is similar to driving a Superline off the preamp. I’m not sure whether after turning the power off and on it comes back as originally set.

Phil 

Just a pleasure to listen to now Phil. I’m no longer trying to analyse the sound and am just drawn into the music which is always my barometer of when it sounds right.

I always have the mute button on the second row pressed. 

Best 

David

S3 posted:

Just a pleasure to listen to now Phil. I’m no longer trying to analyse the sound and am just drawn into the music which is always my barometer of when it sounds right.

I always have the mute button on the second row pressed. 

Best 

David

Ok, In my case it’s an nDAC which is reckoned to be less of a problem than a CDP. When I turn mine off it is very difficult to hear the difference.

Can you hear the difference the record mute makes?

Phil

Add Reply

×
×
×
×