Active 606/707?

nigelb posted:

The SNAXO for the Kudos 707 is housed in a HiCap sized box so I am guessing non-floaty, but others may know the facts.

Don't believe being half sized is an issue as the bmr snaxo is in a half sized box, as is the Superline and both are "floaty".

Willy.

Willy posted:

Is the "Kudos" snaxo  based on the "floaty" snaxo or the non-suspended variant?

Willy.

Well, this is an Active Fan Thread, so lets get a press members take.

floaty snaxo

 

 

 

""I think its time to put this to bed.

It isnt happening. Its as simple as that.

However, I am not bothered. And here is why.

I thought the snaxo 362 was the weak link in my system (52/52ps/snaxo/supercap/6x135/dibbles). And hence my call, a year ago, for a snaxo for dibbles that used the floaty chassis technology which is used in the ovator snaxo. Whats good for one would be a good move forward for the older brother, so my thinking went.

However, events in 2015 changed my mind, along with discovering some misconceptions on my behalf.

Firstly, the floaty snaxo for ovators is essentially a 2-way design. Despite the big ovators being 3 way units, its actually a 2 way design. So it would not be possible, as I assumed, to retune the crossover points of a floaty ovator snaxo for dibbles. Possibly for SBLs etc, but certainly not for dibbles because of the 2-way/3-way conflict. My bad -- I misunderstood the ovator crossover.

Secondly, to get a floaty 3-way snaxo would have meant taking the existing dibble snaxo and trying to mount it onto the spring suspension of the floaty snaxo. Sounds easy -- apparently, it isnt. The bolt holes are apparently in the wrong places or somesuch issue. Which would mean redesigning the board, the cost goes through the roof, and thats not happening.

Thirdly, I have heard S1Pre through dibble snaxo -- it is awesome. dibble snaxo is not the limiting factor. End of. 

Fourthly, I upgraded my supercap feeding dibble snaxo to supercap DR. Well worth doing. I did this after the S1Pre, and gawd only knows what it would sound like now with S1Pre. Dibble snaxo + supercapdr + 6x135 + dibbles is one of the finest active system ever made. And thats with boggo mains cable and naca5. 

Conclusion. floaty snaxo is not happening. It doesnt matter. And it never did. Move on...

Jon""

Basically. I thought it was a suspension based chassis, which one member had an unfortunate event, and his Floaty is still rattling.

In any event, there are tons of Archived Threads " Floaty Snaxo "

Hope that was helpful!

AudioBarn, Next Month!

Let's see what Active System, Focal and Kudos will present!

I would like to hear:

SCDR > Snaxo 362 > 707

Assuming the 707s are an true 3-way Speaker!

Off Course, Marque Separates!

Enjoy your Music, The Why!

Allante93!

PS. Amazing Naim & Kudos collaborating on Active Systems!

Does Focal have any history with Active Speakers?

 

 

 

Allante - the 707 is a 2-way design, but has 3 drivers.  The mid-bass drivers are in a (close to) isobaric arrangement and are both fed by the same signal.  Hence only 2x 250DR to drive them in the Acoustica demo last week.  606 is also 2-way with 3 drivers and (close to) isobaric mid-bass, 808 is 3-way with 4 drivers where the bass is isobaric.

sunbeamgls posted:

Allante - the 707 is a 2-way design, but has 3 drivers.  The mid-bass drivers are in a (close to) isobaric arrangement and are both fed by the same signal.  Hence only 2x 250DR to drive them in the Acoustica demo last week.  606 is also 2-way with 3 drivers and (close to) isobaric mid-bass, 808 is 3-way with 4 drivers where the bass is isobaric.

Sunbeam, are there any 3 way Speaker that adapts to the Snaxo 362/Tri-Amped?

Technical specifications

 

Type:2.5-way isobaric bass reflex
Recommended power:25W – 300W
Sensitivity:91dB / @1W / 1m
Nominal impedance:8 ohms
Frequency range:20 Hz – 30kHz “AIRR” (average in-room response)
Tweeter:SEAS–Kudos Crescendo K2 29mm fabric dome
Mid bass driver:SEAS–Kudos 220mm Nextel coated paper cone with 39mm voice coil
Bass driver:SEAS–Kudos 220mm double coated hard paper cone with 39mm voice coil (x 2)
Dimensions:1115mm (h) x 275mm (w) x 370mm (d)
Weight:66kg
Finishes:Tineo veneer (high gloss paint finishes available to special order)

The Titan 808 is available now priced at £21,250 per pair (including VAT).

Press Member:

"Thirdly, I have heard S1Pre through dibble snaxo -- it is awesome. dibble snaxo is not the limiting factor. End of. 

Fourthly, I upgraded my supercap feeding dibble snaxo to supercap DR. Well worth doing. I did this after the S1Pre, and gawd only knows what it would sound like now with S1Pre. Dibble snaxo + supercapdr + 6x135 + dibbles is one of the finest active system ever made. And thats with boggo mains cable and naca5......"

Jon"

Allante93!

PS. Dibbles, Nibles, and Briks!!!!

DBLs, NBLs, and Isobariks!!!!

I appreciate that the "floaty" snaxo was designed for the Ovators, a two way speaker, and given that it's crossover frequency is likely lower than most two way speakers it perhaps wasn't easy to adapt to other traditional two ways. With no other active speakers in the Naim/Focal stable then there wasn't the business case for the R&D to develop further "floaty" snaxo variants.

In the development of crossovers for the Kudos x0x range of speakers, surely the "floaty" chassis would be a better starting point? If I'd just dropped £21k+ on a pair of 808s I'd want the best possible crossover even if it cost (in relative terms) just a little bit more.

Regards,

Willy.

Willy posted:

I appreciate that the "floaty" snaxo was designed for the Ovators, a two way speaker, and given that it's crossover frequency is likely lower than most two way speakers it perhaps wasn't easy to adapt to other traditional two ways. With no other active speakers in the Naim/Focal stable then there wasn't the business case for the R&D to develop further "floaty" snaxo variants.

In the development of crossovers for the Kudos x0x range of speakers, surely the "floaty" chassis would be a better starting point? If I'd just dropped £21k+ on a pair of 808s I'd want the best possible crossover even if it cost (in relative terms) just a little bit more.

Regards,

Willy.

If I recall, the Ovators 800s, is also a 2.5 way Design.

I'm not sure, but I think DB utilized all 3 of his 500s, coming from 552 Active Briks.

He tried to explain to me, that his Ovators was actually a two way Speaker, with the Option of power the Woofer Directly, with an third Amp.

This is what confuses me, I'm thinking:

BMR Floaty Snaxo 262, designed by Naim, for their Reference Speaker!

Where one could use 2 Amps initially, and after his/her bank account has replenished, Upgrade to DB's Scenario:

NAP 500 DR ~ HIGH Frequencies

NAP 500 DR ~ MID Frequencies

 NAP 500 DR ~ on Da Woofer!

But a BMR Floaty Snaxo 262, not 362!

Perhaps Sunbeam, can Enlighten Us!

Please!!!!

I don't know about the Ovator nor Isobarik scenarios.

For Kudos:

T-606 will need 2x stereo amps (SNAXO, if any, not yet announced)

T-707 will need 2x stereo amps and will use 4x channels of a 362

T-808 will need 3x stereo amps and will use 6x channels of the same 362 as the T-707

FYI Allante, my active 20.26 use 3x stereo amps but no SNAXO, just in case you wanted to add those to the list  

All Ovators are two-way designs with pairs of bass units to cover the lower band of frequencies.

So there are two identical outputs available on the 'floaty' BMR snaxo that can either both drive two separate Power Amps to each drive separately the bass drive units individually  - or only use one of the two available Snaxo outputs into a single Power Amp and drive both bass drive units together - connecting the two bass speaker terminals at the speaker-end.

In either case the separate BMR 'high-pass' output drives the BMR.

So you can have a two Amp or three Amp solution for Active Ovators, but the Ovator is still a two way design - not 2.5 or such, which totally confuses what is happening or how they work.

As to what I did and do - I 'happened' to have three NAP500 amps which I needed for a genuine three-way Active Isobarik speakers I used to run for 25 years until I moved to Ovators. It made no sense to sell at a loss the NAP500 so I just used it - and it also allows more power and linearity so was a better solution anyway. But if I'd only had two NAP500 then I'd have happily ran them Active that way instead. It also saves on a set of SL speaker leads and SL DIN-XLR.

The BMR snaxo is a two-way (high-pass & low-pass) design - with additional specific 'tweaks' (shaping filters) to suit the Ovators, so they are not meant for other speakers.

But it would not be that difficult to omit the 'tweaks' and allow the basic two-way floaty snaxo design to be populated with the new two-way filter poles to define the needed break-points for another design of speaker.

The floaty Snaxo is well worth it - as the once head of Naim said 'it is light-years better' than the standard non-floaty one.

But there may be other 'factors' that mean the non-floaty standard Snaxo has to be what is used, as the team are perhaps trained-up to set these up for bespoke speakers. But I'd think if Naim really wanted to do it, the floaty one can be done for a two way speaker.

DB.

Naim have done the analysis to allow them to optimise the environment the sensitive internal electronics work in - Eg spring rates and brass mass provide mechanical isolation over the frequency range they want to isolate the circuit board. With trial and error methods (platforms and different damping materials), who knows what you'll achieve - maybe better, maybe worse.

sunbeamgls posted:

Does putting a non-floaty SNAXO on an isolation platform or feet (still points, sorbothane etc) take it closer to floaty? If not, why not?

Alternatively, what if Naim were to take a "floaty" snaxo chassis and instead of installing the Ovator snaxo PCB install, oh let us say, a 3 way standard snaxo pcb set up for DBLs  would it be a significant improvement over a standard non-floaty DBL snaxo?

Regards,

Willy

sunbeamgls posted:

Does putting a non-floaty SNAXO on an isolation platform or feet (still points, sorbothane etc) take it closer to floaty? If not, why not?

You beat me to it James n, but here it is:

We here you loud and clear!

Floaty not so floaty

 

My floaty snaxo took a tumble and the suspension now rattles.  Can it be corrected easily or is it a job for Naim?

Sounds like the suspension may be damaged. Is it still working ok? I'd definitely want it looked at by someone who knows what they're doing. Maybe get your dealer to open it up and take it from there?

Going out on a limb here, but I would imagine Naim's answer to your question, would be YES!

However, this is precisely, what our team has done. And after countless hours and testing, we have found our Floaty Snaxo, a resounding upgrade from our non- Floaty Snaxo.

Allante93!

PS. Assuming the BMR Snaxo produced for the Ovator 800 is A Floaty!

Is it possible to have a standard Snaxo 362/242

Upgraded to a Floaty ???

However I'm not an expert, I think it is more feasible to re-configure the Floaty Snaxo for 2-way non-Ovator speakers like the 606.

Having the Floaty Snaxo, I had the weird experience that it felt more like a source upgrade than a speaker upgrade. The music integrates so well and is balanced and transparent despite my simple source and pre-amp (to be improved asap).

Time to break the silence!

Apologies for leaving you all to connect the dots, We were awaiting confirmation of a few things before announcing in more detail what we will be showing on the end of the 272/555PS at our event on October the 14th...

Having just got off the phone with Derek of Kudos I can confirm we will be running the Titan 707 in active configuration using 2 x 250DR and the essential Snaxo fed by a Supercap DR. We will be happy to provide comparisons between active and passive 707's using both 250DR and 300DR amplifiers playing in the more "standard" passive mode

The new "baby brother" T606 will also be here fed by the 250DR and 300DR - only passive this time folks...

I cannot put a link on here but if you were able to register interest on our website that would be appreciated

Hope to see you soon

Cheers, Jack

The Audiobarn posted:

Time to break the silence!

Apologies for leaving you all to connect the dots, We were awaiting confirmation of a few things before announcing in more detail what we will be showing on the end of the 272/555PS at our event on October the 14th...

Having just got off the phone with Derek of Kudos I can confirm we will be running the Titan 707 in active configuration using 2 x 250DR and the essential Snaxo fed by a Supercap DR. We will be happy to provide comparisons between active and passive 707's using both 250DR and 300DR amplifiers playing in the more "standard" passive mode

The new "baby brother" T606 will also be here fed by the 250DR and 300DR - only passive this time folks...

I cannot put a link on here but if you were able to register interest on our website that would be appreciated

Hope to see you soon

Cheers, Jack

@ Audiobarn:

Active 707s feed by 2 x 250 DRs

Snaxo 242 feed by SC DR (burndy)

Signal initiated with Naim's

Popular 272/555PS!

If that is correct, is the Snaxo Floaty?

Thanks In Advance!

Allante93!

PS. Thanks for breaking the silence!

 

Richard Dane posted:

Just to add here - because Jack cannot discuss further on the Kudos speakers (forum rules for trade members), if you have any queries about the speakers then please contact Audiobarn directly rather than asking on this thread. Thanks.

Got it!

Thanks Rich!

Allante93!

PS. Beautiful piece you done, concerning the 250, and how it ok, with the 282, but prefers the 252/552!

Hint those that prefer the 200 over the 250, it might be related to YOUR SPEAKERS!

 

I suppose if demand is there then the Kudos Snaxo will trickle down across the whole 'Active' Kudos range (Super and X0X) - you've got potentially 5 speakers that can be activated (6 if you count the future 505).  If you don't mind the extra boxes and cables then this could be an interesting avenue to explore.   

Well, it are extra boxes, but think of this: a full shoeboxed size active setup which brings the benefits of active:

Floaty Snaxo / Hicap DR / 2x Nap 100 / Dac V1 - buying new under GBP 10.000.

Even if the Dac V1 is substituted by a N272 - optionally with a 555PS, there are still only 3 or 4 shelves needed.

Active does not necessarily mean lots of space.

A passive 250 setup might be better though, and that's even fewer boxes. And even fewer wires. 

What I'd really like is the ability to add an active card to the 272 and be able to run two 250s from it. Then 272A, XPS, 2x250 would do it all with four boxes. It won't happen, but I can dream. 

Interesting concept Nigel - with Naim's increased use of DSP that could be become reality with future digital pre-amp architectures. Flexible outputs where you could easily configure the power amp signal to be full range for a passive system or high pass / low pass with the crossover function implemented digitally for multiple amp active systems (with suitable speakers of course)

Allante93 posted:
The Audiobarn posted:

Time to break the silence!

Apologies for leaving you all to connect the dots, We were awaiting confirmation of a few things before announcing in more detail what we will be showing on the end of the 272/555PS at our event on October the 14th...

Having just got off the phone with Derek of Kudos I can confirm we will be running the Titan 707 in active configuration using 2 x 250DR and the essential Snaxo fed by a Supercap DR. We will be happy to provide comparisons between active and passive 707's using both 250DR and 300DR amplifiers playing in the more "standard" passive mode

The new "baby brother" T606 will also be here fed by the 250DR and 300DR - only passive this time folks...

I cannot put a link on here but if you were able to register interest on our website that would be appreciated

Hope to see you soon

Cheers, Jack

@ Audiobarn:

Active 707s feed by 2 x 250 DRs

Snaxo 242 feed by SC DR (burndy)

Signal initiated with Naim's

Popular 272/555PS!

If that is correct, is the Snaxo Floaty?

Thanks In Advance!

Allante93!

PS. Thanks for breaking the silence!

 

 

No worries, I couldnt be on mute forever!

Absolutely correct setup although I may dissappoint you with the Snaxo floatiness...

Regards

Jack

Hungryhalibut posted:

A passive 250 setup might be better though, and that's even fewer boxes. And even fewer wires. 

What I'd really like is the ability to add an active card to the 272 and be able to run two 250s from it. Then 272A, XPS, 2x250 would do it all with four boxes. It won't happen, but I can dream. 

Wow!  Active Naim! Snaxo!

In 2007 Naim Debut it's Reference CDP: 

A Trio of 250.2s  feeding the iconic DBLs, fronted with a {282}.

Fast Forward 10 years: Audiobarn.

{272}>2 x 250DR> 707s

Wish I could join you guys!

Enjoy the Show!

Allante93!

PS. If it ain't a 272, it just won't do!

The Big Fish!

 

 

Allante93 posted:
Hungryhalibut posted:

A passive 250 setup might be better though, and that's even fewer boxes. And even fewer wires. 

What I'd really like is the ability to add an active card to the 272 and be able to run two 250s from it. Then 272A, XPS, 2x250 would do it all with four boxes. It won't happen, but I can dream. 

Wow!  Active Naim! Snaxo!

In 2007 Naim Debut it's Reference CDP: 

A Trio of 250.2s  feeding the iconic DBLs, fronted with a {282}.

Fast Forward 10 years: Audiobarn.

{272}>2 x 250DR> 707s

Wish I could join you guys!

Enjoy the Show!

Allante93!

PS. If it ain't a 272, it just won't do!

The Big Fish!

 

 

... well ... you could 'Float' to the queens side of the pond, Allante93!.

james n posted:

Interesting concept Nigel - with Naim's increased use of DSP that could be become reality with future digital pre-amp architectures. Flexible outputs where you could easily configure the power amp signal to be full range for a passive system or high pass / low pass with the crossover function implemented digitally for multiple amp active systems (with suitable speakers of course)

It would be good for the existing provider of such an excellent solution to have some competition.

sunbeamgls posted:
james n posted:

Interesting concept Nigel - with Naim's increased use of DSP that could be become reality with future digital pre-amp architectures. Flexible outputs where you could easily configure the power amp signal to be full range for a passive system or high pass / low pass with the crossover function implemented digitally for multiple amp active systems (with suitable speakers of course)

It would be good for the existing provider of such an excellent solution to have some competition.

Providers 

james n posted:
sunbeamgls posted:
james n posted:

Interesting concept Nigel - with Naim's increased use of DSP that could be become reality with future digital pre-amp architectures. Flexible outputs where you could easily configure the power amp signal to be full range for a passive system or high pass / low pass with the crossover function implemented digitally for multiple amp active systems (with suitable speakers of course)

It would be good for the existing provider of such an excellent solution to have some competition.

Providers 

Not when you include the word "excellent" 

sunbeamgls posted:
nigelb posted:

Thanks for the write up, very informative.

I am going to try and get along to the Audiobarn bash because I particularly want the hear the 606s and of course want to hear Naim active Kudos. I also hope they do the 300DR passive vs the 250DR active trick.

Do you know if the 606s are in final production form yet or are they still pre-production?

Sorry, I forgot to ask if they had the final production drivers or not.   Its been a long week and it didn't pop into my head to get the update. I do know they're still the only ones in existence though.

A quick chat with Kudos at Indulgence.  The T-606s at Acoustica last week have the final production drivers, but there are still a few "minor tweaks" to be sorted - these weren't specified, but I imagine stuff like the lining thickness or wadding packing density or crossover values or such aspects could be in the mix.

Still managed to forget to ask about floatiness though!

 

T-707s still sounding good today, but lacking a certain level of "oomph" and low end extension compared to active 250DRs.  Running with Primare electronics in passive form today.  Tidal was the main source, which is probably a significant contributor.

I was listening to the 707s at last year's Bristol show with an LP12 as the source and Naim amplification (back then passive only). It all sounded limp and unexciting and I knew there was much, much more available. They were playing some rather poorly recorded Beatles album IIRC.  Then I spied a Yello album which I asked them to stick on.

Bl**dy hell! It was bonkers - in a good way. A massive grin appeared on my and others faces. OK, Yello might be a bit..well…err…gratuitous but at leat you could hear what these fine speakers are capable of.

Funnily enough I went back to the same room a few hours later and the same Yello album was playing!

What fun!

I have just got back fro the Audiobarn Kudos Titan 606/707 demo, or should I say 707 demo. There was a problem. This morning the 606s tweeters were blown by a faulty Supercap (power supply for the SNAXO) but later suspicion fell on a dodgy Burndy. Anyway, the 606 was not heard today.

Which leaves us with the 707 passive with a 300DR or active with 2 x 250DRs with the SNAXO powered by a HiCap instead of the SuperCap which was feeling tired and emotional as previously explained. We also had the opportunity to hear the S20As passively fed by a 300DR. All power amp/speaker combos were fronted by the same 272/555PS source, which in my view became a limiting factor when we reached the 707/active pinnacle. Having said that, I was very impressed with the 272s capabilities.

To summarise first, I preferred the 707s driven actively by the 250DRs in comparison to the passive 300DR option. More scale, more extension top and bottom and more control at those extremes when listening to the active system. Music felt more, the only word I can think of is, complete. There was an ease to the active presentation, music was a little more relaxing to listen to but would still thump you fully in the chest when called to do so. The passive 300DR option on the 707s sounded very good but a little smaller in scale and to some extent a little more realistic in term of musical scale if truth be known. The frequency extremes were less extended but there was still an iron grip particularly over the bass with the 300DR. Indeed with active 250DRs the bass was very deep but very occasionally was reverberating around the rather large listening room. This I believe was caused partly by the limitations of the 272 but, as no other streamers or pre amps were on offer, I have no evidence as to the cause of this slight criticism.

Just before I left we had a bit of fun and went from S20A/300DR passive to 707/300DR passive and finally 707/250DRs active. The S20s use a different tweeter to the 707s which is a little hotter than the rather smooth tweeter used across the Titan range. But the S20 never sounded hard or harsh. The bass was all there but sounded a little disjointed at times in comparison with the beautifully intergrated and seemless presentation of the 707s. In isolation, the S20s were a thoroughly entertaining and satisfying listen. We finished off with them with Acoustic Revenge, a track off the Antonio Forcione Live! album. The audience felt this would be a great track to hear straight away again with the 707s.

Next up 707s passive with the 300DR and the same Antonio Forcione track. Blimey, the scale, the musicianship of this wonderful acoustic guitarist just took a huge leap forward. And there is that seemless integration you get with the 707s, down surely to the matching of drivers, careful design of cabinet and port loading and that wonderful smooth but detailed Titan tweeter. The 707s again displayed a jump up too in the extension at both ends of the frequncy spectrum but never losing control.

Finally, the 707s in active mode with 2 x 250DRs with the same track. I have listened to this track dozens of times at home but never have I heard such realism than today with active 707s. It was totally relaxing but exciting at the same time and that is a weird but wonderful sensation. Antonio's guitar sounded so much more, and here's that word again, complete. More natural, more satisfying to listen to. Bonkers good!

It is a shame we did not get to hear the 606s, and frankly these are the speakers that would probably suit my room and bank balance best. But to be honest I would have then spent less time listening to the wonderful 707s, and that quite frankly was a blast.

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Former MemberSteve Crouch
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