Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Marksnaim posted: 

How is 52% a minority?

It's the fluke result from a flawed electoral procedure; which was wrongly run to similar rules as a general election. 

A referendum is not a General Election.

The onus should have been on the Leave side to prove that over 50% of the electorate wants to leave:  50% of 46.5 million registered voters = 23.25 million, but the Leave votes only number 17.410,742 idiots so they have failed to win enough support to justify leaving.

Another glaring electoral misdemeanour was the deliberate underhand exclusion of allowing 16 and 17 year olds the vote. It is their future after all!

All the above was stressed and argued before the referendum in June last year, but ignored by the Tory Gov, and the Tory press media.

The easiest way out of this mess is to allow a national re-vote.

Marksnaim posted:
Don Atkinson posted:

48% v 52% does not equal "the will of the People". It represents the will, by a very small margin, of some of the people.

The Government has stated that there WILL be a Parliamentary vote at the end of the Brexit negotiations. The Government is being deceitful if this is anything other than a totally free vote, on whether to Leave or Remain. It can NOT be a vote on whether to "accept the negotiated terms" v "Leave anyway".

Somebody, and it looks like Blair is the only person at the moment, (where is Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmon when you need them ?) who seems even remotely willing to make the government see sense and either reverse the Leave mantra, or be accountable for achieving the "Least-worse" Leave scenario.

IMHO, there was never any mandate for a "Hard Brexit" as wished for by the likes of Farage, Johnson, Gove, or Redwood.

I agree that Blair is not the ideal candidate, but even if Brown, Major, Heath or Thatcher were available and willing to lead this campaign, their past "sins" would be strung out by the Brexit campaigners to justify their claims of arrogance and condescension.

At the moment. I see this Government and the Labour "opposition" simply acquiescing to a howling minority in society, ie the 52% block.

 

How is 52% a minority?

I have highlighted the two parts above, assuming they are linked by your question.

The "Howling minority in society" are the c.16m people in the UK who voted to Leave. ie "the 52% block"

This "52% block" constitutes 25% of the UK's population of c.64m.

25% of a population is a minority.

I have coined the phrase "Howling Minority" because that is all that I hear when I ask "what opportunities and benefits will Brexit bring to the UK?"

naim_nymph posted:
Marksnaim posted: 

How is 52% a minority?

It's the fluke result from a flawed electoral procedure; which was wrongly run to similar rules as a general election. 

A referendum is not a General Election.

The onus should have been on the Leave side to prove that over 50% of the electorate wants to leave:  50% of 46.5 million registered voters = 23.25 million, but the Leave votes only number 17.410,742 idiots so they have failed to win enough support to justify leaving.

Another glaring electoral misdemeanour was the deliberate underhand exclusion of allowing 16 and 17 year olds the vote. It is their future after all!

All the above was stressed and argued before the referendum in June last year, but ignored by the Tory Gov, and the Tory press media.

The easiest way out of this mess is to allow a national re-vote.

You lost, its time to move on with your life. Insulting 17.410,742 people pretty much sums up why the remain camp lost. Such breathtaking arrogance. If you think wheeling out a chancer like Tony Blair is going to convince people to change their minds you really are delusional. I think you will find the input of this shyster will put a hell of a lot more people into the leave camp. In some ways I would like to see a rerun. That way you can have an even bigger loss and even more butthurt, but I suspect if the margin were 10% you would still be whining about how unfair it all is.

 

ltaylor posted:
naim_nymph posted:
Marksnaim posted: 

How is 52% a minority?

It's the fluke result from a flawed electoral procedure; which was wrongly run to similar rules as a general election. 

A referendum is not a General Election.

The onus should have been on the Leave side to prove that over 50% of the electorate wants to leave:  50% of 46.5 million registered voters = 23.25 million, but the Leave votes only number 17.410,742 idiots so they have failed to win enough support to justify leaving.

Another glaring electoral misdemeanour was the deliberate underhand exclusion of allowing 16 and 17 year olds the vote. It is their future after all!

All the above was stressed and argued before the referendum in June last year, but ignored by the Tory Gov, and the Tory press media.

The easiest way out of this mess is to allow a national re-vote.

You lost, its time to move on with your life. Insulting 17.410,742 people pretty much sums up why the remain camp lost. Such breathtaking arrogance. If you think wheeling out a chancer like Tony Blair is going to convince people to change their minds you really are delusional. I think you will find the input of this shyster will put a hell of a lot more people into the leave camp. In some ways I would like to see a rerun. That way you can have an even bigger loss and even more butthurt, but I suspect if the margin were 10% you would still be whining about how unfair it all is.

 

Why not  be more constructive and outline what YOU see as the opportunities and benefits to the Nation of leaving the EU and all of its subsidiary Agencies ?

ltaylor posted:
naim_nymph posted:
Marksnaim posted: 

How is 52% a minority?

It's the fluke result from a flawed electoral procedure; which was wrongly run to similar rules as a general election. 

A referendum is not a General Election.

The onus should have been on the Leave side to prove that over 50% of the electorate wants to leave:  50% of 46.5 million registered voters = 23.25 million, but the Leave votes only number 17.410,742 idiots so they have failed to win enough support to justify leaving.

Another glaring electoral misdemeanour was the deliberate underhand exclusion of allowing 16 and 17 year olds the vote. It is their future after all!

All the above was stressed and argued before the referendum in June last year, but ignored by the Tory Gov, and the Tory press media.

The easiest way out of this mess is to allow a national re-vote.

You lost, its time to move on with your life. Insulting 17.410,742 people pretty much sums up why the remain camp lost. Such breathtaking arrogance. If you think wheeling out a chancer like Tony Blair is going to convince people to change their minds you really are delusional. I think you will find the input of this shyster will put a hell of a lot more people into the leave camp. In some ways I would like to see a rerun. That way you can have an even bigger loss and even more butthurt, but I suspect if the margin were 10% you would still be whining about how unfair it all is.

 

So it appears that you still stand by your post:

"you don't know how delighted it makes me to see all your wailing and gnashing of teeth at the outcome of the EU referendum. Please feel free to carry on. We "Little Englanders" and "Closet racists" are getting plenty of free entertainment at your discomfiture. You might need your safe space tonight given the motion to trigger Article 50 passed 498 votes for to 114 against. Isn't democracy great"?

Perhaps this just a game to you, and the only thing that matters to you the fact that you 'won' a referendum? Did you actually vote, and did you have a logic behind your vote? I haven't seen any hint of one in your posts so far. The fact that you won with a campaign that almost equals that of Trump in respect of lies and deceit doesn't matter either - just that you won and that this allows you to gloat over the poor b******** who lost?   

Great way to unite a country? But then, you don't really care do you, just that you won and someone else lost.  

Don Atkinson posted:
ltaylor posted:

You lost, its time to move on with your life. Insulting 17.410,742 people pretty much sums up why the remain camp lost. Such breathtaking arrogance. If you think wheeling out a chancer like Tony Blair is going to convince people to change their minds you really are delusional. I think you will find the input of this shyster will put a hell of a lot more people into the leave camp. In some ways I would like to see a rerun. That way you can have an even bigger loss and even more butthurt, but I suspect if the margin were 10% you would still be whining about how unfair it all is.

 

Why not  be more constructive and outline what YOU see as the opportunities and benefits to the Nation of leaving the EU and all of its subsidiary Agencies ?

So, like all the other Leavers on this forum, YOU don't seem willing to share your perceived opportunities and benefits of leaving the EU and its subsidiary agencies.

Come on. Don't be shy. Share.

And it now appears that leaving the EU will not give us our 'expected' multi million pound boost to the NHS after all!

Indeed, it now appears that rather than being boosted by the additional money we were promised, we can expect sweeping cuts to NHS hospitals and hospital services countrywide.

Will Theresa May justify the cuts with one of the following arguments:

1. I didn't campaign for Brexit, and so I cannot be held responsible for some of the rash promises (or 'lies') that were made as part of the 'Leave' campaign.

2. Brexit will have a significant adverse impact of Britain's economy, and so we have to make cuts to the NHS and other public services in order to make up for this. The NHS really "would have been safe with us" were we not faced with the sobering reality of Brexit. 

3. The devaluation of Sterling means that it is becoming more difficult to attract 'cheaper' NHS staff from abroad, and we simply don't have sufficient numbers of Nurses and Doctors to cope.  

But seriously though, how can the Government have the audacity to make these sweeping cuts to the NHS at this particular point in time, and are those of you who voted to leave happy about this? Is it a price worth paying for the 'benefits' of leaving the EU? Or perhaps you feel that the two events are not related, and that these are just the first steps being taken by May and the Conservatives towards the dilution of the NHS and a transition to Insurance based private medicine of the sort to be found in the US?     

Hmack posted:

But seriously though, how can the Government have the audacity to make these sweeping cuts to the NHS at this particular point in time, and are those of you who voted to leave happy about this? Is it a price worth paying for the 'benefits' of leaving the EU? 

Don't worry ... people will say they are justified because there are going to be less immigrants using the health service.  

Or perhaps you feel that the two events are not related, and that these are just the first steps being taken by May and the Conservatives towards the dilution of the NHS and a transition to Insurance based private medicine of the sort to be found in the US?     

I think the latter is perhaps true ... certainly if you feel that was the direction of the Cameron government there is no indication that that policy isn't being continued by May.

It isn't just the Health Service under financial pressure. Local Authorities are saying that the bill they face for increased care costs will be hugely greater than the 2% HMG is allowing them to put on Council Tax.  Meanwhile the Prison Service is at near breaking point.

Oh, and for a party that has always prided itself on it support for our armed services, we now have a situation under the government where we have no early warning aircraft and no active aircraft carriers.   

I don't blame Brexit for any of this but nor do I expect Brexit to improve it.

As @MDS comments one big issue is that there is a lack of integrated thinking / planning between health service and social care so the NHS is being used to plug the failings in social care.  May and Hunt will likely start talking about the amount of additional money put into the NHS too, and there has been ... but the problem there is that the money has been "wasted" on emergency services, without tackling the issues that caused people to require the services which in many cases should be tacked by GP services ... only there isn't sufficient GP services.  Hunt then wants GPS to be doing more, while providing less resources.

Timmo1341 posted:

FFS, this bone's been gnawed so much there can't be much left. Have none of you got lives to live or music to listen to?

The technology on this forum is clearly inadequate - it will only let me "like" this comment once. 64m likes would be insufficient ...

Don Atkinson posted:
Marksnaim posted:
Don Atkinson posted:

48% v 52% does not equal "the will of the People". It represents the will, by a very small margin, of some of the people.

The Government has stated that there WILL be a Parliamentary vote at the end of the Brexit negotiations. The Government is being deceitful if this is anything other than a totally free vote, on whether to Leave or Remain. It can NOT be a vote on whether to "accept the negotiated terms" v "Leave anyway".

Somebody, and it looks like Blair is the only person at the moment, (where is Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmon when you need them ?) who seems even remotely willing to make the government see sense and either reverse the Leave mantra, or be accountable for achieving the "Least-worse" Leave scenario.

IMHO, there was never any mandate for a "Hard Brexit" as wished for by the likes of Farage, Johnson, Gove, or Redwood.

I agree that Blair is not the ideal candidate, but even if Brown, Major, Heath or Thatcher were available and willing to lead this campaign, their past "sins" would be strung out by the Brexit campaigners to justify their claims of arrogance and condescension.

At the moment. I see this Government and the Labour "opposition" simply acquiescing to a howling minority in society, ie the 52% block.

 

How is 52% a minority?

I have highlighted the two parts above, assuming they are linked by your question.

The "Howling minority in society" are the c.16m people in the UK who voted to Leave. ie "the 52% block"

This "52% block" constitutes 25% of the UK's population of c.64m.

25% of a population is a minority.

I have coined the phrase "Howling Minority" because that is all that I hear when I ask "what opportunities and benefits will Brexit bring to the UK?"

Every government is elected by a minority of the population (both Trump and Trudeau were). Election results are determined by a majority of the voters - this is the way it works. It isn't a secret or a trick - get over it!

There was a higher turnout for the referendum than for the last General Election. 9 regions voted to leave, 3 voted to remain. Both the procedure and the outcome are valid and now we're getting divorced - going to live another life - no more misery. Now we've just got to make sure we've got a f**king good lawyer so that we don't get screwed by the Ex!

We're out. Rejoice

MDS, Eloise et-al..............this is your newly transformed "Brexit Leader" speaking. Fear not !

£350m pw will soon be freely available.

It will solve ALL your heath care and social care problems within 6 months. Hospitals, Social Care Homes, GP waiting lists, you name it, it will be resolved.

The following 6 months will sort out the prison situation with new prisons, fully staffed by G4S on new (higher) contracts to make it worth their while to employ the right calibre of staff.

Next year the fitting out of the new Elizabeth Class carriers will be brought forward to match the early delivery of our 200 F35's that President Trump has promised in a new free-trade deal. And we will sort out the power supplies of all our new Type 45 Destroyers. Trident will not be delayed. Putin beware !

Puegeot, BMW and Mercedes have promised to relocate their main production plants to Luton, Oxford and Milton Keynes respectively, but this will require a £350m "sweetener" for each company in the first three weeks of year 3. Meanwhile I am assured that Toyota, Honda and Tata have all been promised their £350m in weeks 4, 5 and 6.

.............As I say, "fear not", all is in hand ! We only need to get those bloody Peers to see sense this week and all will be well !

PS I was only kidding when I said "Brexit Leader" above. But in the probable (see "Brain Teasers") absence of any of the Forum's Leavers providing any glimmer of hope about our  future opportunities and benefits, I thought somebody should !!

 

 

ynwa250505 posted:
Don Atkinson posted:
Marksnaim posted:
Don Atkinson posted:

48% v 52% does not equal "the will of the People". It represents the will, by a very small margin, of some of the people.

The Government has stated that there WILL be a Parliamentary vote at the end of the Brexit negotiations. The Government is being deceitful if this is anything other than a totally free vote, on whether to Leave or Remain. It can NOT be a vote on whether to "accept the negotiated terms" v "Leave anyway".

Somebody, and it looks like Blair is the only person at the moment, (where is Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmon when you need them ?) who seems even remotely willing to make the government see sense and either reverse the Leave mantra, or be accountable for achieving the "Least-worse" Leave scenario.

IMHO, there was never any mandate for a "Hard Brexit" as wished for by the likes of Farage, Johnson, Gove, or Redwood.

I agree that Blair is not the ideal candidate, but even if Brown, Major, Heath or Thatcher were available and willing to lead this campaign, their past "sins" would be strung out by the Brexit campaigners to justify their claims of arrogance and condescension.

At the moment. I see this Government and the Labour "opposition" simply acquiescing to a howling minority in society, ie the 52% block.

 

How is 52% a minority?

I have highlighted the two parts above, assuming they are linked by your question.

The "Howling minority in society" are the c.16m people in the UK who voted to Leave. ie "the 52% block"

This "52% block" constitutes 25% of the UK's population of c.64m.

25% of a population is a minority.

I have coined the phrase "Howling Minority" because that is all that I hear when I ask "what opportunities and benefits will Brexit bring to the UK?"

Every government is elected by a minority of the population (both Trump and Trudeau were). Election results are determined by a majority of the voters - this is the way it works. It isn't a secret or a trick - get over it!

There was a higher turnout for the referendum than for the last General Election. 9 regions voted to leave, 3 voted to remain. Both the procedure and the outcome are valid and now we're getting divorced - going to live another life - no more misery. Now we've just got to make sure we've got a f**king good lawyer so that we don't get screwed by the Ex!

We're out. Rejoice

Somebody asked how come 52% = a Minority.

My explanation is straight forward. Your diatribe above is irrelevant.

Eloise posted:

As @MDS comments one big issue is that there is a lack of integrated thinking / planning between health service and social care so the NHS is being used to plug the failings in social care.  May and Hunt will likely start talking about the amount of additional money put into the NHS too, and there has been ... but the problem there is that the money has been "wasted" on emergency services, without tackling the issues that caused people to require the services which in many cases should be tacked by GP services ... only there isn't sufficient GP services.  Hunt then wants GPS to be doing more, while providing less resources.

All true.  And ministers can legitimately claim to have increased spending on the NHS but the increase hasn't remotely kept pace with rising costs and volume of demand so the result is the crisis we are seeing today.  And the seemingly endless 'reforms' and 'restructuring', PFIs etc of the NHS may have employed lots of administrators, managers, accountants and consultants must have sucked up huge resources that would have been better spent on clinical supply.

And the state of social care. Well, over the past year or so I've unfortunately needed to see it as a 'customer'.  I'll just say that it makes the NHS look a paragon of efficiency and awash with resources.  

ynwa250505 posted:
Don Atkinson posted:
Marksnaim posted:
Don Atkinson posted:

48% v 52% does not equal "the will of the People". It represents the will, by a very small margin, of some of the people.

The Government has stated that there WILL be a Parliamentary vote at the end of the Brexit negotiations. The Government is being deceitful if this is anything other than a totally free vote, on whether to Leave or Remain. It can NOT be a vote on whether to "accept the negotiated terms" v "Leave anyway".

Somebody, and it looks like Blair is the only person at the moment, (where is Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmon when you need them ?) who seems even remotely willing to make the government see sense and either reverse the Leave mantra, or be accountable for achieving the "Least-worse" Leave scenario.

IMHO, there was never any mandate for a "Hard Brexit" as wished for by the likes of Farage, Johnson, Gove, or Redwood.

I agree that Blair is not the ideal candidate, but even if Brown, Major, Heath or Thatcher were available and willing to lead this campaign, their past "sins" would be strung out by the Brexit campaigners to justify their claims of arrogance and condescension.

At the moment. I see this Government and the Labour "opposition" simply acquiescing to a howling minority in society, ie the 52% block.

 

How is 52% a minority?

I have highlighted the two parts above, assuming they are linked by your question.

The "Howling minority in society" are the c.16m people in the UK who voted to Leave. ie "the 52% block"

This "52% block" constitutes 25% of the UK's population of c.64m.

25% of a population is a minority.

I have coined the phrase "Howling Minority" because that is all that I hear when I ask "what opportunities and benefits will Brexit bring to the UK?"

Every government is elected by a minority of the population (both Trump and Trudeau were). Election results are determined by a majority of the voters - this is the way it works. It isn't a secret or a trick - get over it!

There was a higher turnout for the referendum than for the last General Election. 9 regions voted to leave, 3 voted to remain. Both the procedure and the outcome are valid and now we're getting divorced - going to live another life - no more misery. Now we've just got to make sure we've got a f**king good lawyer so that we don't get screwed by the Ex!

We're out. Rejoice

Anybody with any sense, would ensure they have a good lawyer before triggering the "divorce" button.

And they would have their future, "brighter" opportunities and benefits well thought through.

Don Atkinson posted:
ynwa250505 posted:
Don Atkinson posted:
Marksnaim posted:
Don Atkinson posted:

48% v 52% does not equal "the will of the People". It represents the will, by a very small margin, of some of the people.

The Government has stated that there WILL be a Parliamentary vote at the end of the Brexit negotiations. The Government is being deceitful if this is anything other than a totally free vote, on whether to Leave or Remain. It can NOT be a vote on whether to "accept the negotiated terms" v "Leave anyway".

Somebody, and it looks like Blair is the only person at the moment, (where is Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmon when you need them ?) who seems even remotely willing to make the government see sense and either reverse the Leave mantra, or be accountable for achieving the "Least-worse" Leave scenario.

IMHO, there was never any mandate for a "Hard Brexit" as wished for by the likes of Farage, Johnson, Gove, or Redwood.

I agree that Blair is not the ideal candidate, but even if Brown, Major, Heath or Thatcher were available and willing to lead this campaign, their past "sins" would be strung out by the Brexit campaigners to justify their claims of arrogance and condescension.

At the moment. I see this Government and the Labour "opposition" simply acquiescing to a howling minority in society, ie the 52% block.

 

How is 52% a minority?

I have highlighted the two parts above, assuming they are linked by your question.

The "Howling minority in society" are the c.16m people in the UK who voted to Leave. ie "the 52% block"

This "52% block" constitutes 25% of the UK's population of c.64m.

25% of a population is a minority.

I have coined the phrase "Howling Minority" because that is all that I hear when I ask "what opportunities and benefits will Brexit bring to the UK?"

Every government is elected by a minority of the population (both Trump and Trudeau were). Election results are determined by a majority of the voters - this is the way it works. It isn't a secret or a trick - get over it!

There was a higher turnout for the referendum than for the last General Election. 9 regions voted to leave, 3 voted to remain. Both the procedure and the outcome are valid and now we're getting divorced - going to live another life - no more misery. Now we've just got to make sure we've got a f**king good lawyer so that we don't get screwed by the Ex!

We're out. Rejoice

Somebody asked how come 52% = a Minority.

My explanation is straight forward. Your diatribe above is irrelevant.

Well 10% of 64m is also a minority - but just as irrelevant a comment as your claim. The reality is; there is only one relevant statistic - 52% of voters voted to leave. Sad eh

Don Atkinson posted:
ynwa250505 posted:
Don Atkinson posted:
Marksnaim posted:
Don Atkinson posted:

48% v 52% does not equal "the will of the People". It represents the will, by a very small margin, of some of the people.

The Government has stated that there WILL be a Parliamentary vote at the end of the Brexit negotiations. The Government is being deceitful if this is anything other than a totally free vote, on whether to Leave or Remain. It can NOT be a vote on whether to "accept the negotiated terms" v "Leave anyway".

Somebody, and it looks like Blair is the only person at the moment, (where is Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmon when you need them ?) who seems even remotely willing to make the government see sense and either reverse the Leave mantra, or be accountable for achieving the "Least-worse" Leave scenario.

IMHO, there was never any mandate for a "Hard Brexit" as wished for by the likes of Farage, Johnson, Gove, or Redwood.

I agree that Blair is not the ideal candidate, but even if Brown, Major, Heath or Thatcher were available and willing to lead this campaign, their past "sins" would be strung out by the Brexit campaigners to justify their claims of arrogance and condescension.

At the moment. I see this Government and the Labour "opposition" simply acquiescing to a howling minority in society, ie the 52% block.

 

How is 52% a minority?

I have highlighted the two parts above, assuming they are linked by your question.

The "Howling minority in society" are the c.16m people in the UK who voted to Leave. ie "the 52% block"

This "52% block" constitutes 25% of the UK's population of c.64m.

25% of a population is a minority.

I have coined the phrase "Howling Minority" because that is all that I hear when I ask "what opportunities and benefits will Brexit bring to the UK?"

Every government is elected by a minority of the population (both Trump and Trudeau were). Election results are determined by a majority of the voters - this is the way it works. It isn't a secret or a trick - get over it!

There was a higher turnout for the referendum than for the last General Election. 9 regions voted to leave, 3 voted to remain. Both the procedure and the outcome are valid and now we're getting divorced - going to live another life - no more misery. Now we've just got to make sure we've got a f**king good lawyer so that we don't get screwed by the Ex!

We're out. Rejoice

Anybody with any sense, would ensure they have a good lawyer before triggering the "divorce" button.

And they would have their future, "brighter" opportunities and benefits well thought through.

Unfortunately, we had a sh*te lawyer when we started, but fortunately, he jacked it in halfway through. Now we've got a SUPER lawyer ...

Don Atkinson posted:

Anybody with any sense, would ensure they have a good lawyer before triggering the "divorce" button.

And they would have their future, "brighter" opportunities and benefits well thought through.

I thought Blair's analogy was a good one - deciding you don't like your house that you're going to sell up.....but you haven't seen the new house, what it has to offer, how much it's going to cost etc etc.  Once all those things become clear it might turn out that you think your old house isn't too bad after all!  

MDS posted:
Don Atkinson posted:

Anybody with any sense, would ensure they have a good lawyer before triggering the "divorce" button.

And they would have their future, "brighter" opportunities and benefits well thought through.

I thought Blair's analogy was a good one - deciding you don't like your house that you're going to sell up.....but you haven't seen the new house, what it has to offer, how much it's going to cost etc etc.  Once all those things become clear it might turn out that you think your old house isn't too bad after all!  

Yes, I thought that was a bloody good analogy as well.

Pity that once the "Missus" has made up her mind to move, common sense and the bleeding obvious is no longer relevant.

YNWA250505,

Along with Timmo and one or two others, you appear to not really care about the details or the potential benefits of Brexit at all - just that you can play the winners vs losers game. You certainly don't seem to be interested in contributing any meaningful posts other than just popping up now and again in order to attempt to irritate those who do and point out that we are 'losers'. So how about giving us some idea of your political beliefs? Are you a UKIP supporter? Big fan of Nigel Farage or Donald Trump? What about Stephen Bannon, Sebastian Gorka or Marine Le Pen. Do any of them float your boat? Will you be supporting Marine in the upcoming French elections, or do you actually have any interest in politics at all? Is this just a game to you? 

 

 

Hmack posted:

YNWA250505,

Along with Timmo and one or two others, you appear to not really care about the details or the potential benefits of Brexit at all - just that you can play the winners vs losers game. You certainly don't seem to be interested in contributing any meaningful posts other than just popping up now and again in order to attempt to irritate those who do and point out that we are 'losers'. So how about giving us some idea of your political beliefs? Are you a UKIP supporter? Big fan of Nigel Farage or Donald Trump? What about Stephen Bannon, Sebastian Gorka or Marine Le Pen. Do any of them float your boat? Will you be supporting Marine in the upcoming French elections, or do you actually have any interest in politics at all? Is this just a game to you? 

 

 

The details of the EU are that it is ex-growth, it is financially corrupt and it is politically moribund. It was a project conceived by politicians, for the benefit of politicians and is run behind closed doors. Democracy is not a concept recognised by the powers-that-be in Brussels and that is why it is doomed - as happened to communism.

The benefit of Brexit is simple - the UK Government regains control of the UK's destiny will have the opportunity to make the best of that situation.

winners vs losers? I've never used those words - fact-check me lol ...

Meaningful posts? On here? Its a music website ffs ...

I don't support anybody in foreign elections - why would I? I've no idea who those people are, they don't affect me and I don't f**king care about them ...

it's just a game ... I wish catching fish were as easy though

I suggest you take a look at the first verse of the Serenity Prayer because the horse hasn't just bolted - it's way down the road and you are still trying to find the lock on the barn door.

 

ynwa250505 posted:

I suggest you take a look at the first verse of the Serenity Prayer because the horse hasn't just bolted - it's way down the road and you are still trying to find the lock on the barn door.

The Serenity Prayer?  Malcom Reynolds and the crew never gave up the fight just because the brow coats lost...

winkyincanada posted:

Seeing the early results, it seems the UK is stupider, more racist, more selfish, more paranoid and more delusional than I imagined in my worst nightmares. I'm now kind of hoping they do vote to leave. The rest of the world might be better off without them.

Well, what do you know! The UK did vote to leave - the rest of the world might be better off.

Bloody damn democracy!!!

ps: I hope the nightmares ease eventually ...

Eloise posted:
ynwa250505 posted:

I suggest you take a look at the first verse of the Serenity Prayer because the horse hasn't just bolted - it's way down the road and you are still trying to find the lock on the barn door.

The Serenity Prayer?  Malcom Reynolds and the crew never gave up the fight just because the brow coats lost...

its all about getting by ...

ynwa250505 posted:
winkyincanada posted:

Seeing the early results, it seems the UK is stupider, more racist, more selfish, more paranoid and more delusional than I imagined in my worst nightmares. I'm now kind of hoping they do vote to leave. The rest of the world might be better off without them.

Well, what do you know! The UK did vote to leave - the rest of the world might be better off.

Bloody damn democracy!!!

ps: I hope the nightmares ease eventually ...

"The rest of the world"? Crikey, I didn't know we voted to leave that too! 

winkyincanada posted:
dayjay posted:
winkyincanada posted:
Clay Bingham posted:

Gentlemen

How about some respect for our friends. It's not your country and the outcome whatever it turns out to be will have resulted from a democratic process. We've all had our say over the past couple of months, now its time to wish them the best and trust that life will go on for all of us.

 

Respect for those that didn't vote for racism, intolerance and exclusion. Contempt for those that did.

What an arrogant and judgemental view that is, and rather insulting to just over 50% of the U.K. Population who's votes have so far been counted.  There were far more factors at play than that very narrow list, and attitudes like yours, and others who refuse to listen to those who don't want to be ruled via Brussels, and who continue to play the race card, has only helped to push people into hardening their support for brexit.  There are many people who believe in democracy and tonight is democracy in action regardless of the end result

I agree with you that there are far more factors at play (or at least that their should be), but you're being naive if you think that a fair chunk (but no, not all) of the "Leavers" weren't motivated by distrust and/or hatred for people "not like them". The future of your country should not be decided by xenophobes and racists. It is a sad day for all of us.

Bottom line is that this was far too important a decision, and it is far too complex, for it to be decided by referendum. Your leadership is weak and spineless.

"weak and spineless" - clearly unlike Junior - he punches his opponents in Parliament - now that's what I call Leadership!!!

and as to the inadequacies of a referendum for complex decisions, Canada has had, not one, but two! I guess the electorate is smarter over there ...

Don Atkinson posted:
winkyincanada posted:

Seeing the early results, it seems the UK is stupider, more racist, more selfish, more paranoid and more delusional than I imagined in my worst nightmares. I'm now kind of hoping they do vote to leave. The rest of the world might be better off without them.

That applies to c.17m of the c.46m population entitled to a vote.

It will take a change of Government to implement their wishes.

I'm not sure how such a Government can be elected.

But the 46m didn't all vote ...

No change of government needed was needed ...

Hmack posted:

Having gone to bed at 4am in the forlorn hope that what I was witnessing was just a nightmare, I see that it is a reality.

So, David Cameron has not delayed his resignation. I would say good riddance, were it not for the fact that this will exacerbate the economic and social turmoil.  Also, as a supporter of the labour party with a great deal of admiration for Corbyn and his approach to politics up to now, I have to register my opinion in respect of his performance in the debate leading up to the election. I am afraid I have to say that he must go as well. His presence in the campaign, his apparent lack of conviction, and the lacklustre efforts of the labour leadership to participate effectively in the campaign are just too damning. 

And the icing on the cake - Donald Trump has just congratulated UK voters  - apparently, "BREXIT is a great thing". Donald Trump and Nigel Farage! Now they are fine bedfellows, aren't they.

I have been appalled by the result of general elections in the past, but I have never been so completely dismayed and disheartened by a national vote of any sort. I also have to admit that I did not see this coming. I was completely convinced that the British public could not possibly be so utterly naïve. (I can't even bring myself to prefix Britain by the word "Great", even as a joke. This is past joking about.

We have just done irreparable damage to the UK, and we have just helped create economic and social chaos in Europe and beyond.

I think Corbyn is awesome ...

It will take "years and years" before British workers are ready to fill the low-skilled jobs left by EU migrants, Brexit Secretary David Davis has conceded.

He said the UK was not about to "suddenly shut the door" on low-skilled EU migrants because UK nationals were not likely to take up the low-paid jobs in care, farming or hotels and restaurants for some time.

Mr Davis' comments, made during a visit to Estonia, will raise questions over Theresa May's pledge to use Brexit to take back control of immigration and reduce net migration to the tens of thousands.

Difficult to make this sorry saga up, isn't it !

No doubt we shall have to use £350m pw to encourage these essential workers to actually come to the UK to help us out. And the EU will charge us a "premium" to provide this service.

Is there anybody in the HoC that is wise enough to say "enough is enough" ?

 

I have removed a particular post and any associated replies.  As a first post it had all the hallmarks of a troll post and hence unacceptable on this forum.  A reminder to members new, and sometimes old, by all means come into the padded cell to discuss stuff outside of music and hifi, but if all you want to do is come to this forum and extol what are considered by many as controversial or extreme views on issues unrelated to Naim then I'm afraid this isn't the place for you.

The forum is quite a broad church culturally and politically, however we are all united by our love of music and an appreciation of Naim.  Whatever arguments we may have, it's always worth bearing in mind what brought us together here.

Richard Dane posted:

I have removed a particular post and any associated replies.  As a first post it had all the hallmarks of a troll post and hence unacceptable on this forum.  A reminder to members new, and sometimes old, by all means come into the padded cell to discuss stuff outside of music and hifi, but if all you want to do is come to this forum and extol what are considered by many as controversial or extreme views on issues unrelated to Naim then I'm afraid this isn't the place for you.

The forum is quite a broad church culturally and politically, however we are all united by our love of music and an appreciation of Naim.  Whatever arguments we may have, it's always worth bearing in mind what brought us together here.

Thanks, Richard. I'm sure we should all endorse your sentiments.

Clive

Richard Dane posted:

The forum is quite a broad church culturally and politically, however we are all united by our love of music and an appreciation of Naim.  Whatever arguments we may have, it's always worth bearing in mind what brought us together here.

Indeed for the love of music, major political and cultural events usually generate great musical revolutions which we could look forward to enjoying.  Probably the Sixties was the main example of that, progressing rock 'n' roll onto further levels of hard rock/ metal.  Certainly the winter of discontent and what created music "year Zero" through punk rock.  Hip-hop superseded all.  Interesting times will create very powerful music.  This will be led by the youth of course... hopefully they haven't run out of new ideas.

An interesting speech by Sir John Major at Chatham House this evening.  I was reminded of the plain and common-sense speaking style which I think never got the credit it deserved when he was PM.  Anyway, some interesting common ground with Blair's speech e.g. the over-statement of the promises of Brexit; the realism needed about how difficult a process this will be; the importance of transparency in what can be achieved; and the folly of shouting down the '48% remainers'.

I was also struck by Major's assertion of how strong the binding forces are on continental Europe to ensure the EU project survives the UK's departure.   

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