Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Don Atkinson posted:
Resurrection posted:
 

You are of course referring to the likes of JRM, Boris, Redwood and Gove.

God help us and this Nation if, or when, any of this lot get to No10 or 11.

You, of course would prefer Corbyn, McDonnell, Nugee and Abbott. Unbelievable!

What on Earth leads you to such an outrageous conclusion ? You are clearly demented !

You're getting a little excited there. Take it easy, after all Rudd's gone - hopefully to be replaced by JRM 🤓

Don Atkinson posted:

It will be interesting to see what the inevitable reshuffle delivers.

JRM for Home Secretary?

Yes, JRM he'll soon show Johnny Foreigner what for! Actually, as far as I know he s not anti-immigration, or indeed anti-foreigner. Come on guys and gals let's all agree for once that having got rid of Rudderless we can drop all our differences and become Mogg Maniacs! 🤓

Resurrection posted:

Yes, JRM he'll soon show Johnny Foreigner what for! Actually, as far as I know he s not anti-immigration, or indeed anti-foreigner. Come on guys and gals let's all agree for once that having got rid of Rudderless we can drop all our differences and become Mogg Maniacs! 🤓

Or moggies!

Don Atkinson posted:

Or perhaps the Gov will collapse and we will wind up with the Lib-Dems (Vince Cable) holding the balance of power again and a re-run of the referendum............

That can't possibly happen...

Resurrection says that there won't be a re-run of the referendum...

...and he KNOWS for certain - he's assured us of that.

Resurrection posted:
You, of course would prefer Corbyn, McDonnell, Nugee and Abbott. Unbelievable!

Prefer yes... but that doesn’t mean I think they are the best people for the job but when the choice is (pretty much) A or B yes I would prefer Corbyn to May, prefer McDonnell to Hammond, Thornberry to Johnson and yes, even prefer (Dianne) Abbot to Rudd.  I would prefer a third choice, but our flawed democracy leaves very little choice for most of the country.

The Labour front bench have their flaws, but their flaws are minor in comparison to the unprincipled bunch of opportunist and populist figures in charge at the moment.  A group of people who will sacrifice the best outcome for the country on the alter of doctrine in an attempt to retain power!  A group who will lie in word and by omission.  Who wish to obfuscate their inadequacies by playing the “anti-semitism” card while playing to racist motivations to increase their support, then play dumb when they are caught.  A group who’s interests are more in pleasing the proprietors and editors of Daily Mail and the Sun than actually dealing with the problems of the country.

This is now getting mightily dangerous for TM. Not only is she mired in the creation of the policy itself when Home Secretary but, arguably worse in parliamentary terms, since the leaked memo was from Rudd to her, she is now implicated in mis-leading Parliament because she is open to the question 'the leaked memo proves that the PM knew of these targets, so why didn't she step in last week and correct the position when Rudd was denying knowledge of them?'.  Toxic.

Monday could be interesting.  

Eloise posted:
Resurrection posted:
You, of course would prefer Corbyn, McDonnell, Nugee and Abbott. Unbelievable!

 

The Labour front bench have their flaws, but their flaws are minor in comparison to the unprincipled bunch of opportunist and populist figures in charge at the moment.  A group of people who will sacrifice the best outcome for the country on the alter of doctrine in an attempt to retain power!  A group who will lie in word and by omission.  Who wish to obfuscate their inadequacies by playing the “anti-semitism” card while playing to racist motivations to increase their support, then play dumb when they are caught.  A group who’s interests are more in pleasing the proprietors and editors of Daily Mail and the Sun than actually dealing with the problems of the country.

But they are playing politics, that's what they do. If there were no anti-semitism in the Labour paty, then why was there a huge demonstration in London about it, only the other week?

And what are the racist motivations you refer to? If you meant the one where there is a -hidden or otherwise - policy to remove illegal immigrants [migrants if you prefer the more PC term for it], whats wrong with that? The clue is in the word, 'illegal'

To not have a policy, albeit long after the horse has bolted into oblivion, is most unwise. In case it has escaped your notice, the sheer amount of immigration this country has experienced, particularly since Blair and co were elected, has radically changed this country, in my opinion, for the worse. For example, here in not so sunny Kent, we have house building on former farming land and green fields. Wildlife habitat is being destroyed, more food importation, etc, bolstered by year upon year by uncontrolled immigration.  So much for our green and pleasant land...

lutyens posted:

Can't we just try and keep going and that as Rudd was simply carrying out TM's policies, can't we get rid of her too?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(Then we could have JR-M as PM instead!) Oh happy days

Oh mate, if only. Am going to sleep well tonight dreaming my man Mogg has replaced Maggie May and we're all on board SS UK for a non-EU Nirvana where we will live happily ever after, amen 🤓

Eloise posted:
Resurrection posted:
You, of course would prefer Corbyn, McDonnell, Nugee and Abbott. Unbelievable!

Prefer yes... but that doesn’t mean I think they are the best people for the job but when the choice is (pretty much) A or B yes I would prefer Corbyn to May, prefer McDonnell to Hammond, Thornberry to Johnson and yes, even prefer (Dianne) Abbot to Rudd.  I would prefer a third choice, but our flawed democracy leaves very little choice for most of the country.

The Labour front bench have their flaws, but their flaws are minor in comparison to the unprincipled bunch of opportunist and populist figures in charge at the moment.  A group of people who will sacrifice the best outcome for the country on the alter of doctrine in an attempt to retain power!  A group who will lie in word and by omission.  Who wish to obfuscate their inadequacies by playing the “anti-semitism” card while playing to racist motivations to increase their support, then play dumb when they are caught.  A group who’s interests are more in pleasing the proprietors and editors of Daily Mail and the Sun than actually dealing with the problems of the country.

Interesting! Always wondered how the mind of a rabid Corbynite 'worked'. Clearly that is a non sequitur. And insulting the millions of people who read the Sun and The Daily Mail, I thought you were a woman of the people, Eloise. You must also be one of the few people that buy the Grauniad which I personally believe has a much more useful function than being read, like, inter alia, lighting fires. And there you are littering your vituperation with allusions to race and religion but never actually playing the card, oh no!

You accuse me of being destructive in my support of Brexit but are quite happy to align yourself with some of the nastiest thugs to have ever been inflicted on Parliament, whose stated aim is to take us to a Marxist Hell that has failed every single state in which it has been practised. You invoke political vandalism for no other reason than a congenital hatred of conservatism. You may consider yourself an idealist but are in fact one of those, like Corbyn, McDonnell and McCluskey, that brooks no deviation from your own 'principles' and norms. 

Resurrection posted:

... and we're all on board SS UK for a non-EU Nirvana where we will live happily ever after, amen 🤓

Most of the people on the Titanic thought they were on their way to a much better life in an ideal country (and the UK has even fewer lifeboats per capita!).

Huge posted:
Resurrection posted:

... and we're all on board SS UK for a non-EU Nirvana where we will live happily ever after, amen 🤓

Most of the people on the Titanic thought they were on their way to a much better life in an ideal country (and the UK has even fewer lifeboats per capita!).

I knew my allusion would attract moths. 🤓

Resurrection posted:
Huge posted:
Resurrection posted:

... and we're all on board SS UK for a non-EU Nirvana where we will live happily ever after, amen 🤓

Most of the people on the Titanic thought they were on their way to a much better life in an ideal country (and the UK has even fewer lifeboats per capita!).

I knew my allusion would attract moths. 🤓

Well, despite that comment, you're not my flame!

docmark posted:

Politics on the Naim forums.  Boy, you people are nasty to one another!  Hopefully your country can get things sorted out.  Good luck.

Indeed!

The political divides in both the UK and the US are becoming more pronounced and more acrimonious, although we haven't lurched quite so much to the far right as has the current US Presidency. At least, not until the likes of John Redwood get into a position of real power. I was tempted to bundle Rees-Mogg and a couple of others in with Redwood (just to please Resurrection), but awful though I think Rees-Mogg's political views are, even he is not a match for the nastiness of John Redwood and his political views.

We are also beginning to have a press that is a little akin to that in the States. In the States you have Fox News and Breitbart on the extreme right, and the likes of CNN on the other who are portrayed by some on the right as being on the far left and propagating 'fake news'. I guess that if you are one of those who view Breitbart, Fox News as constituting real journalism with Sean Hannity at the helm, and CNN as 'Socialists' (heaven forbid) and the nasty guys on the extreme left of politics, then you would probably feel the same way about Newspapers such as the Guardian in the UK. You may also feel that right wing rags such as the Mail and the Sun are independent and impartial bastions of the political truth, despite being owned and increasingly influenced by ultra rich magnates (in the  case of the Sun, by the Fox News owner Rupert Murdoch). I hasten to add that even they don't troll the gutter to anything like the extent that do Breitbart and Fox News with the exception of a particularly nasty former Mail columnist called Katie Hopkins whom I believe has recently left the Mail to join a right wing Canadian outlet called 'Rebel Media'. Canadians beware!

However, I will also point out for anyone from outside these shores who hasn't quite grasped this yet, that the Brexit divide in the UK (which is the subject of this particular thread) is not split along party political lines, and there are many reasonable people on both sides of the debate who contribute to this thread. Many reasonable people on this forum who argue strongly in favour of remaining in the EU have indicated that they have right leaning political viewpoints, and  similarly, there are no doubt more than a few on the left who support Brexit. Unfortunately, there are also a few contributors to this thread who display triumphalism at its worst, and whose sole aim in the thread appears to be to gloat over the Brexit Referendum result.

It's depressing, but it's difficult to know how the political acrimony can be replaced by harmony or cross party collaboration in the near future in either of our countries.  

                  

docmark posted:

Hi HMACK - thanks for your well-written response.  I'm Canadian, and of course we also have our problems.  I continue to follow the political scene in both the UK and the US with some interest.

Hi Docmark,

I hadn't realised that you were based in Vancouver. I should have read your profile. Vancouver is a beautiful city. I have close relatives who live in Vancouver, and I hope to return there soon.  

Whatever political problems and party political divisions you have in Canada, I very much suspect that they do not compare with those currently afflicting the UK and the US.

  

Another defeat for the Government in the Lords this afternoon, inserting an amendment to give Parliament a meaningful vote. It will be interesting to see how this one plays out and the arguments advanced by HMG if it wants to use the House of Commons to overturn the amendment. After all, a fundamental argument of the Brexiteers during the campaign was that the UK needs to 'take back control' form the 'undemocratic' (sic) EU and that power to decide things affecting the Uk should be decided by the UK Parliament.  

So the Lords insert an amendment to enhance the power of Parliament in respect of the Brexit deal.  What do the Brexiteers say now ? 'Oh, when we said we need to take back control, we didn't mean for the UK Parliament to have it. We meant for the executive to have it! '  How democratic.

docmark posted:

Politics on the Naim forums.  Boy, you people are nasty to one another!  Hopefully your country can get things sorted out.  Good luck.

To be fair, Docmark, you did chime in at a point when things had got somewhat more heated than usual - at least in the limited time I've been viewing this thread - a few weeks. By and large though, most people are reasonably civilised to one another, even when coming from polar opposite viewpoints. When things do get a bit heated, I remind myself of the adage "sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never harm me"  

Thankfully it would appear that Parliament is in the last week or so starting to get a grip on the Brexit process, so instead of the country being held to ransom by the Tory party chasing unachievable unity on Europe, there is the real prospect of a sane outcome that won't please the hard Brexiters, but everyone else - the majority of people in the UK - will be able to get behind it.

Don Atkinson posted:

Should the Commons accept the Lords amendment and give MPs a meaningful vote on any Brexit deal, rather than the “accept the deal, or leave without any deal” (no deal is better than a bad deal) ?

The whole “meaningful vote” is a lie (depending how May takes the Lords defeat).

She says that she can’t offer Parliament a vote which would leave her having to go back to the EU or remain because that would mean that the EU would give a really bad deal in the hope the U.K. parliament vote to remain part of the EU.  Well by the same argument she can get a deal which suits her and not the wider parliament knowing that the “meaningful vote” is a case of take a bad deal, or leave without any deal which most of parliament have said would be worse than the worst of bad deals!

Don Atkinson posted:

Should the Commons accept the Lords amendment and give MPs a meaningful vote on any Brexit deal, rather than the “accept the deal, or leave without any deal” (no deal is better than a bad deal) ?

A good question - for Resurresction's benefit, a one word response - "Yes".

For everyone else, a more nuanced response. A good article on it in the Guardian today - salient extracts:

[Douglas Hogg] said a choice between accepting the terms or crashing out of the EU would not be a genuine choice. “This is not regaining control. To act in such a manner would be to impose ministerial decisions on parliament by coercion,” he said, calling it “an elective dictatorship of a particularly flagrant kind”.

He called the referendum vote “at the very best an interim decision” and said the public could not have predicted the terms of the UK’s departure.

By way of balance, and from the same article:

The Brexit secretary, David Davis, said: “Firstly, the amendment tries to secure a vote for parliament before the negotiations have concluded. This is, quite frankly, nonsensical – because nothing in this negotiation is agreed until everything is agreed.

“Second, it demands specific votes by artificial deadlines which, if not met, would give parliament the power to micromanage the government on how to carry out these negotiations.”

Davis said the change would give the EU commission “a clear incentive to delay the negotiations or present unacceptable propositions”.

My take on it would be that the UK's negotiating team have consistently played a weak negotiating hand very badly, and that this isn't really a negotiation - the EU Commission have hardly moved on their red lines from the get go, nor are they likely to, despite JRM's wet dreams about British exceptionalism. I note that even the DT have been calling for a re-examination of the Norway option recently, as they realise that the negotiation is a busted flush, and that this is the least bad option remaining open to the UK, if we are to have any form of Brexit. There is no doubt in my mind that the EU have indeed firmed up their negotiating position in recent months, no doubt to put pressure on the UK to at the very least stay in a/the customs union - primarily as this forms a workable basis for a solution to the NI problem, but as a useful corollary prevents the UK from becoming Singapore upon Thames. Clearly, there has been much briefing from No 10 recently that remaining in a/the customs union is actively under consideration, hence the near panic on the part of the ERG. The only thing the ERG fear more than this is a Corbyn government, which is a very real prospect given the dire performance of the current incumbents. 

Given the above, I'd much rather Parliament had a meaningful input to the process of deciding our destiny re Brexit, than trust the hard right cabal of the Tory party, who have no grasp of realpolitik and who I suspect are trying to engineer a crash out of Europe at any costs, to the immense detriment of practically everyone except the 1%ers. 

Once this is all over, and TM is safely out of the way having served her purpose as useful idiot, it will be fascinating to read her memoir as to her role in all of this. I am endlessly baffled as to what motivates her to try to square the Brexit circle. 

I agree the EU negotiation team have played a much better game than HMG, but then they do have a stronger hand.  Like in any negotiation, it pays to understand where your opponent's position is strong and where it is weak, and seek to leverage the weaknesses to maximum advantage. The EU team have rightly identified the Irish  border issue as a real weak spot for the UK, not just because it is practically difficult but also the tension within the Conservative party and the DUP. It's hard to see that position being reconciled so it's completely logical for the EU team to say 'the UK created this problem so it is up to the UK to come forward with suggestions for solving it and, BTW, a satisfactory solution to the Irish border issue is critical to the overall deal. So if you can't find a solution to it you get no negotiated exit.'

 

So I see Johnson has done the (near) impossible today: the Brexit and Remain camps are united in agreeing that TM’s preferred customs partnership is unworkable and “crazy”.

I suspect they differ in their reasons why this is unworkable or what the best alternative is, but May’s plan has at last united the country if only in a very small way!

Eloise posted:

So I see Johnson has done the (near) impossible today: the Brexit and Remain camps are united in agreeing that TM’s preferred customs partnership is unworkable and “crazy”.

I suspect they differ in their reasons why this is unworkable or what the best alternative is, but May’s plan has at last united the country if only in a very small way!

Like Johnson would know anything about it?! He's demonstrated time and again a poor grasp of the topics he expresses views on, even those he should know about.  I suspect he wouldn't stand-up too well to a well-briefed journo quizzing him about the two customs union options that TM seems prepared to consider.  The dividing line I'm seeing here is one group (Johnson & co)  criticising options on the basis that they offend what they believe is the ideology of Brexit and another who seem keen to explore practical options that might accommodate a host of competing objectives and minimise possible damage to the UK trade's and economy.   I know which group I'd rather have in charge.  

I read today that Airbus has, if awarded the contract, committed to future activities for Galileo in than EU27 rather than in the UK.  Beyond the catchphrases I hope someone is keeping count of the wins and losses that Brexit is generating. I work for a company that is invested in the UK, and we are looking beyond the fantasies of the elected officials who don't  have to worry about how to keep people busy, pay their salaries, while making a profit to secure future investments inside a fiscal year to keep the shareholders happy. That would be too much trouble since Brexit does mean Brexit and the details will come later, however the details are being worked by companies now as it is their money on the line.

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