Atc Scm 11 substitution

Halloween Man posted:
Pedro T. posted:

I don't know about the DAC but the 5si alone at 11 o clock must be close to full power...

Could it be that the amp is struggling to drive speakers? Could it also be that because of this amp is more or less running in class b and sounding harsh?

That's not necessarily valid, there is a volume control in the DAC V1, so if that is turned down, then the control in the 5si will have to be turned up by the corresponding amount.  This will simply restore the input to the power amp to the same level (and hence give the same output) as though the DAC V1 was at full volume and the 5si was set at a lower volume.

The views on acoustics are all very sensible.

Still, I'd consider the power issue if the OP likes to listen to music very loud. The 5si clips at 76WPC at 8 ohms (source: Stereophile). ATC recommends a minimum of 75W. Doesn't seem the right match for very loud music playing...

75W into SCM 11 will give around 100dB SPL in a reasonably small room (and likely more if the room's reflective) - that's very loud, loud enough to risk hearing damage in anything over 15 minutes.
A 5si has plenty of power for SCM11s in a small room.

Managed to find the post which mentioned on the size of the room (4m x 4m). Yes, I would surely say it's a rather small room and listening distance would be around 2m from speakers in that room with the user sitting on the bed. So the ATC SCM11/Nait 5si is a bedroom system.

Although a more powerful amp might bring some change to the ATC SCM11, I would agree with Huge that the differences might not be worthwhile since one cannot really listen to loud music in a small room (especially a bedroom). The SPLs would probably be in the range of 40 dB to 75 dB in that room.

If you have the SCM11s in a larger room you would then be able to listen at higher volumes, and for this reason a larger amp would do a lot of justice for the speakers. 

I have read about ATCs not sounding too good at lower volumes. Perhaps that's the reason the user experienced listening fatigue when the volume was cranked up higher, further exacerbated by the smallish room. Other than source and treatments to walls, a change in speaker might be an easier solution. A speaker with low listening fatigue which sounds good at low to moderate levels.

Sun King posted:

Dear community.

One year ago I bought my first Naim (Nait 5si) and month latter Scm 11 speakers. Unfortunately I did't have a chance to listen to them in my home environment since this is not a dealer's policy, but I had extensive listening at his audio room. Speakers, connected to my amp, sounded great and very easy to listen even at very high volume. 

Well, situation in my room was quite shocking. The transparency and beautiful sound is still there, but it comes with an ear fatigue, sometimes after 15 minutes, other times after hour of listening. It was very bad at the beginning, but I manage to place speakers in position that gives me minimal unpleasent feeling. But it is still there.

I would like to try some other speakers, maybe a bit warmer, but without loosing the transparency. With Naim I auditioned Neat Motive. They completely killed rock'n'roll with polite guitar. 

Can you give me a hint for what model to where to look, please. There is a huge problem here, since I am limited to audition only a few most commercial brands (B&W, KEF ...).

Thank you.

Regards.

If all else fails (source and room treatment), look at the Harbeth P3ESR. No room treatment required.

ryder. posted:

Managed to find the post which mentioned on the size of the room (4m x 4m). Yes, I would surely say it's a rather small room and listening distance would be around 2m from speakers in that room with the user sitting on the bed. So the ATC SCM11/Nait 5si is a bedroom system.

Although a more powerful amp might bring some change to the ATC SCM11, I would agree with Huge that the differences might not be worthwhile since one cannot really listen to loud music in a small room (especially a bedroom). The SPLs would probably be in the range of 40 dB to 75 dB in that room.

If you have the SCM11s in a larger room you would then be able to listen at higher volumes, and for this reason a larger amp would do a lot of justice for the speakers. 

I don't understand this reasoning - the sound level for a given amplifier setting is approximately inversely proportional to the distance from the speakers (nominally 6dB quieter for every doubling of distance between listener and speakers, the precise difference depending on reflections in the room). For the same amp. power the sound level at 2m from the speakers would be approximately the same in a small room as 2m away in a big room, though with reflective surfaces it would actually be slightly louder in the small room, but more 'muddy' due to the reflections). In a larger room a person has more potential to sit further from the speakers, when greater amp. power would be needed for the same sound level. So if one likes music loud, the key to reduced amp. power and hence less risk of clipping is to sit closer to the speakers -which in many cases might be more likely to happen in a smaller room rather than a larger one.

As for absolute sound level, what is significant is that a doubling of amp. power is required for every 3dB increase in sound level, and it isvpeaks where that is generally significant, not average level: A pair of speakers with a sensitivity of 85dB/w positioned at a distance of 2 m from the listener both at the same sound level would produce a sound level of 82dB at the listening position (ignoring the effect of reflections) for just 1w amp. power. 8w would produce 91dB, which is loud, and for continuous listening is unwise for hearing health.

The above are relevant as considerations of average sound level, but of course real music is not a steady level, and where the power requirements become significant are for peaks - 100dB in this scenario (9dB above average level) would take 64w, while 112dB, which might be quite realistic for instantaneous peaks in some music played at 'realistic' levels -even more with occasional pieces, e,g Tchaikovsky's 1812 with canons - would require 1024w! Multiply these amplifier powers by 4 for a listening position 4m away instead of 2m. N.B. This is peak amplifier power capability that is required not RMS -but clearly extreme peaks can put many amps into clipping - though that does not mean that anything untoward would be heard on the average programme material.

Innocent Bystander posted:

I don't understand this reasoning - the sound level for a given amplifier setting is approximately inversely proportional to the distance from the speakers (nominally 6dB quieter for every doubling of distance between listener and speakers, the precise difference depending on reflections in the room). For the same amp. power the sound level at 2m from the speakers would be approximately the same in a small room as 2m away in a big room, though with reflective surfaces it would actually be slightly louder in the small room, but more 'muddy' due to the reflections). In a larger room a person has more potential to sit further from the speakers, when greater amp. power would be needed for the same sound level. So if one likes music loud, the key to reduced amp. power and hence less risk of clipping is to sit closer to the speakers -which in many cases might be more likely to happen in a smaller room rather than a larger one.

As for absolute sound level, what is significant is that a doubling of amp. power is required for every 3dB increase in sound level, and it isvpeaks where that is generally significant, not average level: A pair of speakers with a sensitivity of 85dB/w positioned at a distance of 2 m from the listener both at the same sound level would produce a sound level of 82dB at the listening position (ignoring the effect of reflections) for just 1w amp. power. 8w would produce 91dB, which is loud, and for continuous listening is unwise for hearing health.

The above are relevant as considerations of average sound level, but of course real music is not a steady level, and where the power requirements become significant are for peaks - 100dB in this scenario (9dB above average level) would take 64w, while 112dB, which might be quite realistic for instantaneous peaks in some music played at 'realistic' levels -even more with occasional pieces, e,g Tchaikovsky's 1812 with canons - would require 1024w! Multiply these amplifier powers by 4 for a listening position 4m away instead of 2m. N.B. This is peak amplifier power capability that is required not RMS -but clearly extreme peaks can put many amps into clipping - though that does not mean that anything untoward would be heard on the average programme material.

May I ask which part of my post you was referring to when you mentioned you had trouble understanding the reasoning?

In my humble opinion, having read everything above, the ear fatigue comes from driving the ATCs too loud and with an underpowered amplifier. With the V1 in place some of the source inadequacies are ameliorated, but the amplifier/speaker issue remains. 

The comment about not being able to play music loudly in a small room is interesting. My room is about 5m long and 3.6m wide, with the speakers on the long wall. The walls are made of brick, the floor is concrete and we have fire doors to help keep the sound in. With the volume up it's perfectly possible to drive the room and get incredible volume yet with a sound that remains totally clean with no boom or overhang. There is no room treatment whatsoever other than a good carpet, a well stuffed sofa and two armchairs. 

ryder. posted:
Innocent Bystander posted:

I don't understand this reasoning - the sound level for a given amplifier setting is approximately inversely proportional to the distance from the speakers (nominally 6dB quieter for every doubling of distance between listener and speakers, the precise difference depending on reflections in the room). For the same amp. power the sound level at 2m from the speakers would be approximately the same in a small room as 2m away in a big room, though with reflective surfaces it would actually be slightly louder in the small room, but more 'muddy' due to the reflections). In a larger room a person has more potential to sit further from the speakers, when greater amp. power would be needed for the same sound level. So if one likes music loud, the key to reduced amp. power and hence less risk of clipping is to sit closer to the speakers -which in many cases might be more likely to happen in a smaller room rather than a larger one.

As for absolute sound level, what is significant is that a doubling of amp. power is required for every 3dB increase in sound level, and it isvpeaks where that is generally significant, not average level: A pair of speakers with a sensitivity of 85dB/w positioned at a distance of 2 m from the listener both at the same sound level would produce a sound level of 82dB at the listening position (ignoring the effect of reflections) for just 1w amp. power. 8w would produce 91dB, which is loud, and for continuous listening is unwise for hearing health.

The above are relevant as considerations of average sound level, but of course real music is not a steady level, and where the power requirements become significant are for peaks - 100dB in this scenario (9dB above average level) would take 64w, while 112dB, which might be quite realistic for instantaneous peaks in some music played at 'realistic' levels -even more with occasional pieces, e,g Tchaikovsky's 1812 with canons - would require 1024w! Multiply these amplifier powers by 4 for a listening position 4m away instead of 2m. N.B. This is peak amplifier power capability that is required not RMS -but clearly extreme peaks can put many amps into clipping - though that does not mean that anything untoward would be heard on the average programme material.

May I ask which part of my post you was referring to when you mentioned you had trouble understanding the reasoning?

Sorry, I should have made clear it was pimarily the  second paragraph - can't listen to really loud music in a small room; sound levels limited to 40-75dB in that room (which I take to have meant no more than 75dB reasonably achievable with those speakers).

Re third para, being able to listen at higher levels in a larger room. I agree if you meant that if you sit the same distance from the speakers in a larger room the effect of reflections would be less and so the music clearer, though that is a function of the reflections and not the larger room per se - as I indicated, if you sit further away because it is a larger room a greater amplifier output is required for the same sound level.  (N.B. the muddying effect of reflections is irrespective of sound level, so in the small reflective room the effect would remain even at low listening levels.)

While at it, I should clarify that when I was describing average and peak sound levels, with some types of music the dynamic tange is very much less than others, so an average level of, say, mid 80 dBs does not necessarily mean peaks that come anywhere near to exceeding the amp's capability.

Ryder, the part of you post I don't understand (and I suspect the same for IB) is "since one cannot really listen to loud music in a small room (especially a bedroom). The SPLs would probably be in the range of 40 dB to 75 dB in that room.".  Smaller rooms sound louder for a given power and speaker: One can listen at the same volumes as in larger rooms with less amplifier power.  My room is 3.6mx4.25m and, with acoustic treatment, +/-4dB 18Hz to 18kHz!

IB, your calculations are correct for an anechoic environment, within a real room you can add between 2 and 4 dB, and the OP's room is quite reflective, so 8W will give 94dB which is very loud; but 8W isn't going to tax a 5si one little bit.  If the 5si is running out of power and turning hard, the OP is listening way too loud and rapidly damaging his hearing.

The nature of the reflections from the left wall (being excessive in the mid and HF) and the bookcase (being predominantly HF) are, I believe the biggest problem here (combined with an overall brightness in the room).

HH, don't forget that the OP found the amp & speaker combination particularly good when listening the dealer's showroom, so he doesn't find anything fundamentally wrong with that particular combination.  The problems only show up now the system is installed in his room.


P.S.  IB I was still typing as you sent your post!

Thanks for the clarification. I should be more specific. When I mentioned one cannot really listen to loud music in a small room, I was actually referring to the OP's room which is a bedroom. I am aware that one would be able to listen at high levels in a small dedicated room but in the context of a bedroom especially a smaller one with a bed on one side, it may not be a conducive or proper environment to listen to loud music. Apart from the bed occupying the space, I would expect other furniture in the room such as wardrobe or side table etc. that would contribute more to the acoustics of the room, more reflections at higher SPLs.

I run NBLs in a room about the same size with no problems, however although one speaker is only 17cm from the side wall, that side wall falls back into a bay before the first reflection point, the other side there is a fireplace and the mantlepiece is cluttered enough to diffuse the high frequencies. When I had Thiel CS1.6 in the same room I had a harsh treble and blamed the speakers until I discovered the benefits of cable dressing. The OP has a plain hard wall right next to the left speaker, it may be adding to the harshness but there could still be benefit dressing the cables properly.

What is on the other wall we haven't seen in the pictures? Is there any scope for rearranging the layout?

Thank you all for the replies. 

I always tought, that book shelf would soften the sound, now I see a different perspective. Back wall may be the issue. If I lay on the bed with my head on the pillow, sound is so much softer with less HF. In that case I am about 0.5 m below the tweeters. 

I never tought that listening music on less then 12, so less then half volume, could be much for the amp. As said, at the demo room, speakers were conected to Creek 50 w amp and playing at very high volume. It was not possible to talk normaly wit person sitting next to me. After more then two hours of different music, I expirienced no ear pain. Speakers were (sometimes) conected to Rel T9 sub. Dealer was not quite happy with my Naim decision, suggesting that his amp is much better and more dynamic.

I will try to toe in the near wall speaker and report on the sound.

 Maybe I should post photo of the other part of the room? It is a one room appartment and my living room is my bedroom. On the other side of the room is a bit of an open space and then a furniture alongside the right wall.

Huge - the above post says that a Creek was used at the dealer's, rather than the Nait, so it's completely different. Dealer dems of speakers are pretty useless anyway. Listening for a couple of hours is not the same as days on end at home. You only find out what speakers are really like when you live with them. 

Using a Nait at 12 o'clock, with a bed in front of the speakers sucking up all the sound, with those ATCs, is very likely never going to be ideal. 

Perhaps if the volume was turned down all the problems would go away. Better to have quieter music than ear pain and deafness. 

I have the Dali Mentor Menuets in my bedroom with a large bed just in front of the system, and my room is slightly larger than the OP's. In my limited experience, bedroom systems are compromised unless the room is huge and the listener sits on a proper chair instead of a bed. If the speakers are close to the bed especially a large and high bed, the early reflections will be bad and there is no room acoustics that's going to correct that. 

I'd agree that the problems would go away if the volume is turned down. I mostly listen at low volumes with the bedroom system. Mostly relaxing background music.

Hungryhalibut posted:

Huge - the above post says that a Creek was used at the dealer's, rather than the Nait, so it's completely different. Dealer dems of speakers are pretty useless anyway. Listening for a couple of hours is not the same as days on end at home. You only find out what speakers are really like when you live with them. 

Using a Nait at 12 o'clock, with a bed in front of the speakers sucking up all the sound, with those ATCs, is very likely never going to be ideal. 

Perhaps if the volume was turned down all the problems would go away. Better to have quieter music than ear pain and deafness. 

HH:  That's a change from previous info which said (or implied) that the only difference was the source.

Sun King:  Lack of info or incorrect info invalidates all prior conclusions.  Try acoustic absorption and extreme toe-in, but the amp-speaker interface is now just as suspect as the speaker room interface.


P.S.

HH, I don't agree with the comment "with a bed in front of the speakers sucking up all the sound": The bed will selectively absorb higher frequencies making things less harsh.)

Ryder, I don't agree "If the speakers are close to the bed especially a large and high bed, the early reflections will be bad and there is no room acoustics that's going to correct that. ":  If the bed has a large foot-board, yes that will reflect and the top (or any grille effect) will cause diffraction, but a bed is primarily an HF absorber not a reflector.

 

It is not ideal, I know. I also learned, that home demo is a must. However, from the short list of speakers I am interested in, ATCs were the only one that i can demo. Harbeth and PMC did not have a local dealer.

As I said, I rarely go to 12. If so, maybe with quiter music or with albums that are not produced loud. Eleven is usualy enough. 

Huge, sorry for that. Pqeople are using the same (or similar) combo without any complains and amp with less powere pushed at high volume could sound less relaxed, right?

Sun King posted:

It is not ideal, I know. I also learned, that home demo is a must. However, from the short list of speakers I am interested in, ATCs were the only one that i can demo. Harbeth and PMC did not have a local dealer.

As I said, I rarely go to 12. If so, maybe with quiter music or with albums that are not produced loud. Eleven is usualy enough. 

Huge, sorry for that. Pqeople are using the same (or similar) combo without any complains and amp with less powere pushed at high volume could sound less relaxed, right?

Are you using the DAC V1 in line out mode or are you using it in preamp mode (i.e. using the DAC V1's volume control)?

You should only be using one volume control, either the DAC V1 or the 5si.

Lower powered amps can sometimes sound more harsh, but usually that requires them to be pushed hard (and if you do that in your room it'll be very loud - so loud you'll be damaging your hearing).

Huge, how to do that? If I change one volume contol with remote, the other is turning also.

I checked the settings and dac is set to fixed output.

It is not ear hurting loud. I know what it is since I once accidently push the volume to 3 o'clock and did't notice that. I a second I jumped to the volume button and turn the noise down.

Yes, you set the DAC to fixed output!
What interconnects are you using?   - You should be using a 4pin DIN to 5pin DIN.

If you do have the DAC set at fixed output, then setting the volume control to 12o/c will be excessively loud - you'll be damaging your hearing in about 5-15 minutes.
At fixed output 3o/c is likely to cause clipping in the amp and could have damaged the tweeters - this could cause harshness in the sound due to HF distortion - you need to get the speakers checked out.

Incidentally power output vs. loudness is a red herring:  My NAP300(DR) is still only 90W - i.e. only 2dB louder at maximum.
Also the Creek is rated 50W, the Nait 60W, so no significant difference to the relative amount of stress there.

Both volumes knobs turning is because they use the same RC5 codes.  Nothing to do with the interconnect

Phono to DIN5 is better than phono to phono, and although not ideal, probably not enough to cause your problems.

Get the speakers checked for damaged tweeters.

These are the same speakers, that were playing at the demo room. I bought burned in ex demo speakers. Well, it was the last pair. 

As I said before, the sound did improve a lot. RCA to DIN cable has a significant role here. After I installed speakers at my home and listen to them for the first two hours, I had a feeling of thick worm liquid purring out of my ears. I was shocked. 

I tend to agree with the volume issue. I have played in loud rock bands for years and wear ear protection but haven't always. I suspect I have some degree of hearing damage but find that 10 'o clock on my current system is plenty loud. 11 is a bit too much for me and HF definitely gets grating. I previously owned a nait 5i and rarely pushed it over 10 even in a much bigger room than yours. 

It is tempting to crank the volume to get that visceral feel from the music but it can be difficult to get the right balance in many domestic spaces. 

Sun King posted:

These are the same speakers, that were playing at the demo room. I bought burned in ex demo speakers. Well, it was the last pair. 

As I said before, the sound did improve a lot. RCA to DIN cable has a significant role here. After I installed speakers at my home and listen to them for the first two hours, I had a feeling of thick worm liquid purring out of my ears. I was shocked. 

nait5i is 50w amp, and your atc are 85 db in 8 ohm, so i am quite sure that the nait5i is struggling at high volumes, with a not easy load speakers. Try to borrow from your dealer a supernait or more powerful amp to test.  And i agree that 12 o'clock is high, normally we listen to 9 0'clock and 10 is high volume.

Keler,

5SI is 60W, and the SCM11 are, electrically speaking a fairly benign 8Ω load.

There is no reason to suggest the 5SI is struggling when a 50W Creek amp wasn't.  Yes, a more capable amp (not necessarily a more powerful amp) will control the speakers better; but a lesser amp won't actually struggle with them, it just won't sound as energetic or have the dynamic contrast that a more capable amp will.

With those speakers the 5SI will just start to show hardness somewhere around 95dB to 98dB in room (somewhere about 5 - 15W), so that's not the reason unless the OP is listening at ridiculously high (and damagingly high) sound levels.

A SN2 isn't actually that much more powerful (only 33%), but it will control speakers better.
As the OP has a DAC V1, a 200 or, better still a 250, would be a better solution than a SN2.

Again, listening for two hours, moderate levels, my ears ache. Made some changes, put the speakers in toe, have pillows in a bookshelf corner ... nothing.

To be honest, I have enough of this s***. 

Just want to sit down and listen to some music. Never have problem with my moderate kef iq30 connected to rotel and later to naim.

Harbeth are, drom what i reed, good choice. I think my dealer is also selling them in the latesteh months, but when I mentioned them, he said they are not rocking enough for my taste. And he does not have a home listen.

 

Huge posted:

Keler,

5SI is 60W, and the SCM11 are, electrically speaking a fairly benign 8Ω load.

There is no reason to suggest the 5SI is struggling when a 50W Creek amp wasn't.  Yes, a more capable amp (not necessarily a more powerful amp) will control the speakers better; but a lesser amp won't actually struggle with them, it just won't sound as energetic or have the dynamic contrast that a more capable amp will.

With those speakers the 5SI will just start to show hardness somewhere around 95dB to 98dB in room (somewhere about 5 - 15W), so that's not the reason unless the OP is listening at ridiculously high (and damagingly high) sound levels.

A SN2 isn't actually that much more powerful (only 33%), but it will control speakers better.
As the OP has a DAC V1, a 200 or, better still a 250, would be a better solution than a SN2.

he listen at 12 o'oclock.....so very loud.  On the site i see nait5i at 50w.....   I didn't know that dacv1 has a volume control.....and Sun King has a turntable too....

Sun King posted:

Again, listening for two hours, moderate levels, my ears ache. Made some changes, put the speakers in toe, have pillows in a bookshelf corner ... nothing.

To be honest, I have enough of this s***. 

Just want to sit down and listen to some music. Never have problem with my moderate kef iq30 connected to rotel and later to naim.

Harbeth are, drom what i reed, good choice. I think my dealer is also selling them in the latesteh months, but when I mentioned them, he said they are not rocking enough for my taste. And he does not have a home listen.

 

perhaps your atc are damaged.  Your dealer can't come to your house?

Keler Pierre posted:
Huge posted:

Keler,

5SI is 60W, and the SCM11 are, electrically speaking a fairly benign 8Ω load.

There is no reason to suggest the 5SI is struggling when a 50W Creek amp wasn't.  Yes, a more capable amp (not necessarily a more powerful amp) will control the speakers better; but a lesser amp won't actually struggle with them, it just won't sound as energetic or have the dynamic contrast that a more capable amp will.

With those speakers the 5SI will just start to show hardness somewhere around 95dB to 98dB in room (somewhere about 5 - 15W), so that's not the reason unless the OP is listening at ridiculously high (and damagingly high) sound levels.

A SN2 isn't actually that much more powerful (only 33%), but it will control speakers better.
As the OP has a DAC V1, a 200 or, better still a 250, would be a better solution than a SN2.

he listen at 12 o'oclock.....so very loud.  On the site i see nait5i at 50w.....   I didn't know that dacv1 has a volume control.....and Sun King has a turntable too....

Good point about the TT.

Keler Pierre posted:
Sun King posted:

Again, listening for two hours, moderate levels, my ears ache. Made some changes, put the speakers in toe, have pillows in a bookshelf corner ... nothing.

To be honest, I have enough of this s***. 

Just want to sit down and listen to some music. Never have problem with my moderate kef iq30 connected to rotel and later to naim.

Harbeth are, drom what i reed, good choice. I think my dealer is also selling them in the latesteh months, but when I mentioned them, he said they are not rocking enough for my taste. And he does not have a home listen.

 

perhaps your atc are damaged.  Your dealer can't come to your house?

Yes I also suggested the possibility of tweeter damage after turning the Nait up to the 3 o/c position!

I own a pair of ATCs  and know them very well, the nait isn't the amp I'd pair them with successfully at all.

The SN2 will do but a classic combo will start making real music and for a considerable outlay.

They're a bastard speaker, but if you like, keep repeating,  best to consider either costly Naim  or their own up until 19s.  Then active . If you want to listen to music and not sounds , highs, bass ,problems etc, don't you?  

Don't know of any 50W miracle out there.

yes huge, it is curious to have unpleasant listening even at moderate volumes. If it is not the corner placement,  it may be damaged tweeter or something else in the speaker.

But at high volumes, like 12 o'clock,  the nait5i can struggle...But it is not the cause here because sun king is even tired at moderate volumes.

I did 3 o'clock possition once. Let's say two month ago. My ears are not okey since the beginning. I once restructured my whole room, put the speakers in an open possition, no walls around. 

Now, with Dac, still not okey. Even with turntable. It is a much better, but not at ease. 

If nait is not a good pair, my dealer should not be gready and sell me SCM's.

It is friday, i came home looking for some music, did some of your suggestions. Nothing

Really, I am so tired of that.

I am not aware of your listenig habits, but I did some loud listening (not transperent, not good) with my Kef's. Even with scm's, if i listen a bit loud, I can without any problem talk to a person in the room. I think that your meaning of loud is so much louder then my listening habbit.

 

 

Sun King posted:

I did 3 o'clock possition once. Let's say two month ago. My ears are not okey since the beginning. I once restructured my whole room, put the speakers in an open possition, no walls around. 

Now, with Dac, still not okey. Even with turntable. It is a much better, but not at ease. 

If nait is not a good pair, my dealer should not be gready and seel me SCM's.

It is friday, i came home looking for some music, did some of your suggestions. Nothing

Really, I am so tired of that.

 

 

it is a little sad, i understand.  But now we are some here thinking that your speakers are perhaps damaged, because after putting your speakers out of walls and listening at moderate volumes, you normally have not listening fatigue.  Your dealer is better placed to help you: borrow other standmounth speakers and verify if your atc are not damaged at dealer place.

If the atc are not damaged, it is the association nait5i/atc scm11 that doesn't work.

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