Atc Scm 11 substitution

Keler Pierre posted:

ah, finally you got: it was that, like some said: just the right amp and more power. I am happy for you!

Do you really believe it's the extra 20W that make the difference (rather than the better power supply and higher current [but 'slower'] poweramp)?

Huge posted:
Keler Pierre posted:

ah, finally you got: it was that, like some said: just the right amp and more power. I am happy for you!

Do you really believe it's the extra 20W that make the difference (rather than the better power supply and higher current [but 'slower'] poweramp)?

i don't know, just said a better amp, more power for sure but as you point also better power supply, parts....   All i said before is that the scm11 need a better amp to drive these not so easy to drive speakers.... and a lot of members from different topics on scm11 said that nait5 is not enough.   just that.   It was the critical point and i was right: but i just read members experiences....   But the other periferical aspects are also important, like support, positioning, ...    the most important is that sun king is happy now.

Keler Pierre posted:
Huge posted:
Keler Pierre posted:

ah, finally you got: it was that, like some said: just the right amp and more power. I am happy for you!

Do you really believe it's the extra 20W that make the difference (rather than the better power supply and higher current [but 'slower'] poweramp)?

i don't know, just said a better amp, more power for sure but as you point also better power supply, parts....   All i said before is that the scm11 need a better amp to drive these not so easy to drive speakers.... and a lot of members from different topics on scm11 said that nait5 is not enough.   just that.   It was the critical point and i was right: but i just read members experiences....   But the other periferical aspects are also important, like support, positioning, ...    the most important is that sun king is happy now.

"just the right amp and more power"   That seems to specify power as the important thing.

Actually SCM11s aren't particularly difficult to drive (4.8Ω min in the treble, 50º phase angle maximum in the sub-bass).  It's just that they clearly show up the deficiencies of less capable amps (as is usually the case with true monitor type speakers).  Less revealing speakers mask these deficiencies with lower resolution.  (In fact even QAcoustics 3020s and Whafedale Diamond 225s are both more difficult loads for an amp to drive, but they reveal less about the amp and source.)

As Pedro points out, the fact that a better amp sorted the problem doesn't invalidate the possibility that sorting the room acoustics could equally have sorted the problem (since that possibility was only partially tested with only partial results, but those were positive).

Huge posted:
Keler Pierre posted:
Huge posted:
Keler Pierre posted:

ah, finally you got: it was that, like some said: just the right amp and more power. I am happy for you!

Do you really believe it's the extra 20W that make the difference (rather than the better power supply and higher current [but 'slower'] poweramp)?

i don't know, just said a better amp, more power for sure but as you point also better power supply, parts....   All i said before is that the scm11 need a better amp to drive these not so easy to drive speakers.... and a lot of members from different topics on scm11 said that nait5 is not enough.   just that.   It was the critical point and i was right: but i just read members experiences....   But the other periferical aspects are also important, like support, positioning, ...    the most important is that sun king is happy now.

"just the right amp and more power"   That seems to specify power as the important thing.

Actually SCM11s aren't particularly difficult to drive (4.8Ω min in the treble, 50º phase angle maximum in the sub-bass).  It's just that they clearly show up the deficiencies of less capable amps (as is usually the case with true monitor type speakers).  Less revealing speakers mask these deficiencies with lower resolution.  (In fact even QAcoustics 3020s and Whafedale Diamond 225s are both more difficult loads for an amp to drive, but they reveal less about the amp and source.)

As Pedro points out, the fact that a better amp sorted the problem doesn't invalidate the possibility that sorting the room acoustics could equally have sorted the problem (since that possibility was only partially tested with only partial results, but those were positive).

other possibility: sun king had headache when he was listening.....or a mosquito was flying in his tweeter at that time...

Huge posted:

"just the right amp and more power"   That seems to specify power as the important thing.

Actually SCM11s aren't particularly difficult to drive (4.8Ω min in the treble, 50º phase angle maximum in the sub-bass).  It's just that they clearly show up the deficiencies of less capable amps (as is usually the case with true monitor type speakers).  Less revealing speakers mask these deficiencies with lower resolution.  (In fact even QAcoustics 3020s and Whafedale Diamond 225s are both more difficult loads for an amp to drive, but they reveal less about the amp and source.)

As Pedro points out, the fact that a better amp sorted the problem doesn't invalidate the possibility that sorting the room acoustics could equally have sorted the problem (since that possibility was only partially tested with only partial results, but those were positive).

It's a general remark that most people will make when they compare Naim amps. As we all know, the better Naim amps will have higher wattage when going up the range. Although the difference of 10W may not make any meaningful difference in terms of power, it is still higher powered amp. The better amps may come with better power supply, current and transient figures among other things, though most will usually regard the better amp to be a more powerful amp since it's easier to mention "more powerful".

(*I am aware that power figures are not representative of the true capability of an amplifier as I used to have a 140W Sony amp which didn't sound half as powerful).

As for partial success with the Supernait, it is true that room acoustics might resolve the problem. Even with the Supernait on board, room treatments will likely bring further gains to the system. Nevertheless, some folks may just find a partial solution to be adequate as there might be restrictions with a full solution.

 

 

 

Huge posted:
Antonio1 posted:

Huge, either you know the speaker or don't .

Yu don't ,It's that easy , conjectures being useless.

I could also say either you understand logic or you don't.

However, in my case I assume that you do understand logic, but are just ignoring it, trying to make a point for some reason best known to yourself.

And having designed electronic equipment including HiFi amps, I do know how amps and speakers interact, and yes I do know the electrical characteristics of the SCM11.  I also have a fair amount of experience of dealing with room acoustics and the interaction of room acoustics with speakers.

No, sorry if I seemed rude.

Fact is, it's a very,very particular speaker which may easily lead to strong unsatisfaction , for personal experience its rather difficult to me not to set down these markers for the debate.

Ah, thank you Antonio, it seemed to come across in a different way; I apologise, I misinterpreted the intent behind your words..

And yes they do have a particular style of presentation.  However Sun King seemed to like that, so, on that point, he has me confused.

ryder. posted:
Huge posted:

"just the right amp and more power"   That seems to specify power as the important thing.

Actually SCM11s aren't particularly difficult to drive (4.8Ω min in the treble, 50º phase angle maximum in the sub-bass).  It's just that they clearly show up the deficiencies of less capable amps (as is usually the case with true monitor type speakers).  Less revealing speakers mask these deficiencies with lower resolution.  (In fact even QAcoustics 3020s and Whafedale Diamond 225s are both more difficult loads for an amp to drive, but they reveal less about the amp and source.)

As Pedro points out, the fact that a better amp sorted the problem doesn't invalidate the possibility that sorting the room acoustics could equally have sorted the problem (since that possibility was only partially tested with only partial results, but those were positive).

It's a general remark that most people will make when they compare Naim amps. As we all know, the better Naim amps will have higher wattage when going up the range. Although the difference of 10W may not make any meaningful difference in terms of power, it is still higher powered amp. The better amps may come with better power supply, current and transient figures among other things, though most will usually regard the better amp to be a more powerful amp since it's easier to mention "more powerful".

(*I am aware that power figures are not representative of the true capability of an amplifier as I used to have a 140W Sony amp which didn't sound half as powerful).

As for partial success with the Supernait, it is true that room acoustics might resolve the problem. Even with the Supernait on board, room treatments will likely bring further gains to the system. Nevertheless, some folks may just find a partial solution to be adequate as there might be restrictions with a full solution.

 

 

 

I am totally with you in your above comments as to Naim Amps and I mentioned this sometime ago in a telephone conversation directly with ATC, who dismissed the suggestion that although Naim amps tend to have slightly lower quoted power out puts they are still high powered amps due to other factors.  They took the other view if the Naim Amp for eg is 80watt and another Amp is eg 120watt, no matter how that Naim amp 80watt performs the other Amp has 'more power' and will be more suitable to control with some of their model speakers.  It seems to me from that conversation people at ATC have a some what 'Engineers' view on audio and any suggestion that some ATC speakers seem to require burn in time was instantly repudiated by them.  Despite their certain stance on matters of Audio science I respect them for their products, the way they are built, their belief in their technology and the way their products still attract music lovers and professionals despite the constant competition from other audio brands. 

The problem of taking a view based solely on rated power output is that you are only considering a 1 dimensional scalar analysis of a three dimensional property.  The RMS power output at a given distortion level is truly valid only when applied to 1kHz sine wave test tones into purely resistive loads (in all other conditions it's merely a very rough 'ball park' estimate of performance).

To properly understand an amplifiers output properties require analysis in all three dimensions of voltage, current and time.

Just a brief notice. I have to put Supernait in a box and return it due to a demo with another client my dealer have at the end of the week.

I am a ritual person so I did a small farewell.

- opened a beer and roled a cigarete

- listend to the Morphine song Buena on the lp on SN

- listend to The National song Bludbuzz Ohio sn SN

- disconnect SN and listened to both songs on Naim 5Si.

What a difference. 5Si feels to weak with SCM. SN drives them well.

Now there is a possibilty that SN will go with another person and I would still like to hear XS 2 before I make my deceison.

Strange days have found me

To Sun King,

I started off with the Nait 5i used. And moved to the XS, SN1 with hicapDR and finally the SN2 with hicapDR. I have no more desire to upgrade.

If you want the very best amp for your ATC, I suggest you get the supernait 2. End your search for the amp, and just simply enjoy music instead.

One thing I will say, despite what anyone says, ATC consumer speakers, as with most speakers,  absolutely do take time to run or settle down .. every pair I have owned does.. it's quite obvious over the first 100 hours or so that they open out and then  subtle..  I have owned half a dozen pairs of ATCover the years now and have my 'burn in' process quite procedualused... 

it might be the term 'burn in' ATC object to.. to me it's most like mechanically loosening up... not dissimilar to a car... I guess BMW might object to their new cars needing to be 'burnt in' by their customers.... but the 'feel' of my car changes over the first 3000  miles or so. Funnily enough even my BMW audio speakers take time to open up from new.. and again just like ATC I am very familiar with new BMWs....

Another thing, I thing we trip up with the terms on audio amps and power... amps are often quoted with a sine wave RMS power into a fixed impedance load... in the real world this is not that helpful... the peak power is 1.41 x the RMS power for a sine wave, but who listens to a sine tone?... for real music and audio content.. the ratio of the peak to RMS value of music audio will possibly be a ratio of 6, 7 or significantly more for the peak power for very brief amounts of time .... it is this that is essential to 'control' a speaker with music .... lesser amps will run out of head room quickly ... more conservative or perhaps 'quality' amps will have plenty in reserve for the peaks but not necessarily for a continuous sine wave ... and so will sound like they better drive the speakers with real music 

 

Simon

Simon,

I'd like to add another three factors in the performance of power amps in the real world.

Current clipping:  The maximum current that the output stage can deliver, and this interacts with the phase angle of the load as the imaginary current component through the speakers also has to be delivered by the amps output stage, as well as the real current component.

Current rise time:  How quickly the output current can increase with reducing load impedance - this again is important as the phase angle of the load can interact with the varying voltage of the signal to increase the current faster than the equivalent voltage rise.

The relationship between forward open loop gain / frequency response and the closed loop frequency response.  This can affect the transient performance of an amp.  In the worst case where the open loop gain x the slew rate demand exceeds the slew rate of the output stage by too great a margin, the driver stage can be driven into current saturation.  It takes bipolar transistors a short time to recover after this (an condition known as driver latch-up), and this causes a particularly unpleasant form of non-linear transient distortion.

I assume you mean on the front of the drivers... no I don't, but after several years with my first ever SCM12s I did notice for some reason one bolt  was not as tight as the others and I can't remember why I checked... ... anyway perhaps my curiosity might get the better of me and check my current ATCs at some point... but rather inclined not  to tamper with them really as they are sounding pretty good to me...

Back to the subject of Naim power amps,and difficult loads...I used to own Dynaudio C1 MK 11's,which I was using in home theatre,driven by a 350/channel watt Cary audio power amp.At the time I had a supernait 2 in a separate room for 2 channel only.I changed speakers in home theatre to Dynaudio XD 600's,so decided to try the C1's in 2 channel,running off the SN 2.It struggled to drive the C1's properly,like the Cary amp could do,when I tried to turn it up loud,it simply ran out of steam,the woofer sounded sloppy,and incoherent.I sold the C1's at that point.A year or so later,I upgraded the SN2 to my current N272/250 Dr combo,and my dealer let me borrow his old pair of C1's to try...magnificent is all I will say,the 250 DR controlled the C1's with ease,and I wish I would of kept mine,and upgraded the amp.The point is,although SunKing is seeing the benefit of the SN 1 over the 5i,eventually going to a 250DR or 300,would take things much further with those great little speakers.I can't remember who it is,but I think there is a member here with the same speakers running a 250 DR,maybe they could chime in.

 

I'm running ATC SCM11s v2 partnered with a 272/555 DR/250 DR and SL loom, being fed from a UnitiServe. My listening room is 8' x 12' and the system sounds sublime to my ears. The speakers and SL loom were the last upgrades and in my room the balance, depth and sheer musicality is all I could ask for. Music sounds so natural and 'live' in a being there sense

Listening to my son's band new album (Dead Man's Whiskey - Under the Gun) which is on Tidal - shameless plug - and albums that I played on back in the day, and knowing what tracks like My Year sounded like in the control room, it's remarkable just how my system emulates not just the sound but the 'sensation' of being there.

Even if the mythical 372 / 572 ever got released I will listen long and hard before replacing the 272.

Back to the speakers, these really are remarkable at their price point. Trust me, I tried many other speakers, some costing over twice as much, and the SCMs worked best, for what I was looking for, in my room/system.

Well, guys, slow down

I checked the price of  272/250 and sincerly, I can not aford the combo. Used SN1 or big maybe on good price used SN2 would go. The sugested combo, as sweet as it may be, is out or reach.

Menwhile I had a convesation with a guy who owns Creek/Scm combo.he mainly listens to instrumental music and from his inital impression, he sounded clearly dissapointed by the dealer suggestion, that 55W amp is enough for 4m x 4m room. He is also looking for more powerful one.

Sun King posted:

Well, guys, slow down

I checked the price of  272/250 and sincerly, I can not aford the combo. Used SN1 or big maybe on good price used SN2 would go. The sugested combo, as sweet as it may be, is out or reach.

Menwhile I had a convesation with a guy who owns Creek/Scm combo.he mainly listens to instrumental music and from his inital impression, he sounded clearly dissapointed by the dealer suggestion, that 55W amp is enough for 4m x 4m room. He is also looking for more powerful one.

you can easily enjoy your atc scm11 with supernait, 1 or 2. With nait5i it was more difficult...

As for 282 or 272/ 250, you are not in a hurry..... In absolute terms, there is always and always better...never end.  If you buy 282/250, people will say you to upgrade your speakers,  etc...

For now you solved the problem of incompatibility of nait5i/ atc scm11, as for power/load.

Antonio1 posted:

Yes ,you would definitely get a lot more. 

But not worth staying passive I think.

Anyway, not a technician myself but have you looked at those huge magnets assembly  ?

 

http://www.audiostereo.ro/ATC%...bass%201%20large.jpg

Larger magnets allow the speaker designer to get more bass extension, or greater sensitivity, or an easier amplifier load, or a use a smaller box, or any combination of the four.

Sun King posted:

Well, guys, slow down

I checked the price of  272/250 and sincerly, I can not aford the combo. Used SN1 or big maybe on good price used SN2 would go. The sugested combo, as sweet as it may be, is out or reach.

 

However, the Supernait has a similar rated power section to the NAP250 and regardless of theory it is clear that your experience with the SCM11 / Supernait combination, the fact a 250matches well and ATC themselves recommending a power rating above 70w rms is likely why you were having the issues you were experiencing using the lessor rated power section of your current amp.

alanbass1 posted:
Sun King posted:

Well, guys, slow down

I checked the price of  272/250 and sincerly, I can not aford the combo. Used SN1 or big maybe on good price used SN2 would go. The sugested combo, as sweet as it may be, is out or reach.

 

However, the Supernait has a similar rated power section to the NAP250 and regardless of theory it is clear that your experience with the SCM11 / Supernait combination, the fact a 250matches well and ATC themselves recommending a power rating above 70w rms is likely why you were having the issues you were experiencing using the lessor rated power section of your current amp.

Without more information on the integration between the speaker and the room, that's not a guaranteed conclusion.

N.B. I'm not saying that's an incorrect conclusion, just that it's not the only possibility.

Huge posted:
alanbass1 posted:
Sun King posted:

Well, guys, slow down

I checked the price of  272/250 and sincerly, I can not aford the combo. Used SN1 or big maybe on good price used SN2 would go. The sugested combo, as sweet as it may be, is out or reach.

 

However, the Supernait has a similar rated power section to the NAP250 and regardless of theory it is clear that your experience with the SCM11 / Supernait combination, the fact a 250matches well and ATC themselves recommending a power rating above 70w rms is likely why you were having the issues you were experiencing using the lessor rated power section of your current amp.

Without more information on the integration between the speaker and the room, that's not a guaranteed conclusion.

N.B. I'm not saying that's an incorrect conclusion, just that it's not the only possibility.

I agree there are other factors. However, reading SUNKING's own account of how the Supernait transformed his listening experience in his circumstances I expect that in this specific case the higher rated/performing Supernait is the way to go for him.

alanbass1 posted:

I agree there are other factors. However, reading SUNKING's own account of how the Supernait transformed his listening experience in his circumstances I expect that in this specific case the higher rated/performing Supernait is the way to go for him.

Given that he can get the SN1 for a relatively low additional expenditure (about €600 - €800), then yes I wholeheartedly agree this is the right solution for him.

Huge, ex demo SN1 is a bit more - 1900 euros. Ex demo XS 2 goes for 1600. The price difference is a bit higher. There are not many used SN's availible on the market and I am not shure that I could sell 5si. I sold  my previous Rotel amp for a very low price after one year.

As far as room treatment - i moved speakers a bit more to the back an few cm more from the left wall, now both are slightly toed in.

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