ATC SCM40 stumbles the SN2?

Maybe the question should be, does one want the 'Naim sound' or does one want the way the ATC SCM40 delivers the sound.  If it is the latter then the choice of powerful amps of other brands for reasonable cost is a wider realistic choice.  If it is the former choice to get the best out of the ATC SCM40 with Naim one has to spend alot more money (beyond Supernat 2 price) to get that powerful drive.  I have only heard the ATC SCM40's once at a HIFI Show, but reading between the lines of persons who own or have used ATC SCM40's it seems there is no short cut, to get the best of the speakers particular talents one needs a powerful amp, as ATC advises to its customers.

Romi posted:

Maybe the question should be, does one want the 'Naim sound' or does one want the way the ATC SCM40 delivers the sound.  If it is the latter then the choice of powerful amps of other brands for reasonable cost is a wider realistic choice.  If it is the former choice to get the best out of the ATC SCM40 with Naim one has to spend alot more money (beyond Supernat 2 price) to get that powerful drive.  I have only heard the ATC SCM40's once at a HIFI Show, but reading between the lines of persons who own or have used ATC SCM40's it seems there is no short cut, to get the best of the speakers particular talents one needs a powerful amp, as ATC advises to its customers.

What do you define as, or how would you describe the ‘Naim sound’? 

Allan Probin posted:

Lot of love here for the SCM40's. I listened to the SCM40's in a back-to-back comparison with the SCM19's. The SCM19's sounded tight and bouncy, exactly as you would expect from a sealed box loudspeaker. The bass from the SCM40's sounded looser and free'er, a quite different presentation. Not even the slightest hint of boom or overhang from the 19's in a room about 3.5 x 4.5m, very clean and precise in the bass, but not as weighty or extended as the 40's. The 40's seemed to be hinting at some room issues, although I asked if this was the case and was told they were working fine in that room.

I got a sense that the acoustic suspension in the 19 litre enclosure had a firm grip on the mid/bass unit, but the similar sized bass unit of the 40's, working into a 40 litre cabinet, wasn't being controlled to the same degree. Another factor that might be in play is that the 19's are the only speaker in the ATC Entry range that have a Super Linear bass driver from the higher product ranges. It's actually the same one as used in the Classic 20 and SCM20 Pro. A case of less ambitious but higher quality ingredients perhaps? Or, it could just have been a room issue. However, in conclusion, on that occasion, my preference was for the 19's.

As the OP of this thread. I have got the ATCM19, C3C center to pair with the new Denon 8500 AV amp. 

I have my eyes set on the 40A to integrate into the HT with the upcoming 372 acting as a pre and HT bypass for 2 channels. Will also plan to get 3 pairs of ATC SCM 7s to complete the surround setup.

Innocent Bystander posted:
Romi posted:

Maybe the question should be, does one want the 'Naim sound' or does one want the way the ATC SCM40 delivers the sound.  If it is the latter then the choice of powerful amps of other brands for reasonable cost is a wider realistic choice.  If it is the former choice to get the best out of the ATC SCM40 with Naim one has to spend alot more money (beyond Supernat 2 price) to get that powerful drive.  I have only heard the ATC SCM40's once at a HIFI Show, but reading between the lines of persons who own or have used ATC SCM40's it seems there is no short cut, to get the best of the speakers particular talents one needs a powerful amp, as ATC advises to its customers.

What do you define as, or how would you describe the ‘Naim sound’? 

From my experience of owning Naim system (entry level), its like listening to music after one has drank a can of Red Bull.  Going into finer detail each Naim Amp injects its own character and I suspect going up the chain the sound gets more refined and richer.  As I read with ATC SCM40 speakers they will highlight the type of scource used and the components in the rest  the particular system.  Using brands other than  the Naim Audio with the speakers will obviously produce a different sound. I read that our other member Simon in Suffolk purposefully  uses a Naim power amp (Naim Nap 250.2) to for his ATC SCM 19 speakers rather then have ATC active system because it delivers all those benefits of a Naim Sound rather than a different fidelity sound.

 

Interesting simile  ...especially as when I have tried Red Bull I didn’t detect any effect on me, other than the lingering rather unpleasant aftertaste, I assume due to its artificial nature whether due to its active ingredient or its artificial flavouring.

The often vague hints more than direct statements about the ‘Naim sound” seem to suggest anything from an enhanced frequency band in the area covering the prime rhythmic information, to being ‘shouty’, to there being no house sound at all, while it has also been said to be different today from a so e years ago. This is what makes me prick up my ears when someone raises the subject of the ‘Naim sound’, trying to understand it better.

My own preference is for a natural sound.

kaydee6 posted:
Allan Probin posted:

Lot of love here for the SCM40's. I listened to the SCM40's in a back-to-back comparison with the SCM19's. The SCM19's sounded tight and bouncy, exactly as you would expect from a sealed box loudspeaker. The bass from the SCM40's sounded looser and free'er, a quite different presentation. Not even the slightest hint of boom or overhang from the 19's in a room about 3.5 x 4.5m, very clean and precise in the bass, but not as weighty or extended as the 40's. The 40's seemed to be hinting at some room issues, although I asked if this was the case and was told they were working fine in that room.

I got a sense that the acoustic suspension in the 19 litre enclosure had a firm grip on the mid/bass unit, but the similar sized bass unit of the 40's, working into a 40 litre cabinet, wasn't being controlled to the same degree. Another factor that might be in play is that the 19's are the only speaker in the ATC Entry range that have a Super Linear bass driver from the higher product ranges. It's actually the same one as used in the Classic 20 and SCM20 Pro. A case of less ambitious but higher quality ingredients perhaps? Or, it could just have been a room issue. However, in conclusion, on that occasion, my preference was for the 19's.

As the OP of this thread. I have got the ATCM19, C3C center to pair with the new Denon 8500 AV amp. 

I have my eyes set on the 40A to integrate into the HT with the upcoming 372 acting as a pre and HT bypass for 2 channels. Will also plan to get 3 pairs of ATC SCM 7s to complete the surround setup.

Yep, taking the active option with ATC is very compelling. The comparison I described above was with the passive speakers and immediately after I was on the verge of pulling the trigger on a pair of 19's, but then I thought about it, and thought about it a bit more, then one day I just said what the hell and bought a pair of 19A's instead. Unheard

I'd also listened to a couple of pairs of ATC Classic series speakers, passive and active. If I had the money and the space to accommodate them, I would have a pair of SCM100A's. I have no doubt. It was also a compelling enough comparison to realise that the performance gap between the passive and active versions was so great that for all practical purposes (i.e. without spending multiple times the value of the speakers themselves on power amplification) it would not be closed, never mind exceeded. Hence I was reasonably confident ordering the 19A's and now very pleased I decided to go that route.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Interesting simile  ...especially as when I have tried Red Bull I didn’t detect any effect on me, other than the lingering rather unpleasant aftertaste, I assume due to its artificial nature whether due to its active ingredient or its artificial flavouring.

The often vague hints more than direct statements about the ‘Naim sound” seem to suggest anything from an enhanced frequency band in the area covering the prime rhythmic information, to being ‘shouty’, to there being no house sound at all, while it has also been said to be different today from a so e years ago. This is what makes me prick up my ears when someone raises the subject of the ‘Naim sound’, trying to understand it better.

My own preference is for a natural sound.

You can’t really understand the Naim sound until you hear a properly set up Naim system.

it not about frequency response at all. It’s more about timing accuracy and emotional aspect of the music

analogmusic posted
You can’t really understand the Naim sound until you hear a properly set up Naim system.

it not about frequency response at all. It’s more about timing accuracy and emotional aspect of the music

so no other manufacturer produces equipment with timing accuracy and emotion. Interesting.

have you ever thought its just a simple matter of you having a preference for Naim. The brand?

many make comments on here about how the amps sound different to other but still blindly move up the ever costly chain. Each to there own i suppose but i would want to evaluate at each stage. Either the products have the same sound but provide more detail etc or they don't, the consesus seems to be they don't. Just my observations from others posts, but just look at comments made by the dr upgrade, makes a huge change to the sound signature.

One individual has just put an order down for the new Naim streamer without even hearing it. Whats that all about. £12K and not even heard it. Will they do any comparison with other products, lets see but i doubt it. You pays yer money and makes yer choice.

crazy hobby this, but by god don't it make interesting conversation 

Foxman50 posted:
analogmusic posted
You can’t really understand the Naim sound until you hear a properly set up Naim system.

it not about frequency response at all. It’s more about timing accuracy and emotional aspect of the music

so no other manufacturer produces equipment with timing accuracy and emotion. Interesting.

have you ever thought its just a simple matter of you having a preference for Naim. The brand?

many make comments on here about how the amps sound different to other but still blindly move up the ever costly chain. Each to there own i suppose but i would want to evaluate at each stage. Either the products have the same sound but provide more detail etc or they don't, the consesus seems to be they don't. Just my observations from others posts, but just look at comments made by the dr upgrade, makes a huge change to the sound signature.

One individual has just put an order down for the new Naim streamer without even hearing it. Whats that all about. £12K and not even heard it. Will they do any comparison with other products, lets see but i doubt it. You pays yer money and makes yer choice.

crazy hobby this, but by god don't it make interesting conversation 

Some very pertinent points here - and relates directly to the thread “Moving away from their signature sound”, started yesterday.

I've had blind faith once or twice in hifi brands. Some you win, some you lose. I pre-ordered a Hugo 2 as I loved my Hugo TT but soon realised after using it, it wasn't for me or my system.

I'm surprised in a thread discussing how to drive ATC speakers nonone has yet mentioned ATC P1 power amp. In typical ATC manner you get an awful lot of quality for your money - true dual mono design, low noise and distortion, natural sound (nothing added, nothing taken away, as with other brands they do timing accuracy, emotion comes from the music not the hardware), 6 year warranty, and enough juice to drive just about anything. I've previously demo'd P1 with SCM40 and SCM19 and thought they were a perfect match. They're not the prettiest though.

Halloween Man posted:

I've had blind faith once or twice in hifi brands. Some you win, some you lose. I pre-ordered a Hugo 2 as I loved my Hugo TT but soon realised after using it, it wasn't for me or my system.

I'm surprised in a thread discussing how to drive ATC speakers nonone has yet mentioned ATC P1 power amp. In typical ATC manner you get an awful lot of quality for your money - true dual mono design, low noise and distortion, natural sound (nothing added, nothing taken away, yes as with other brands they do timing accuracy and emotion comes from the music, not the hardware), and enough juice to drive just about anything. I've previously demo'd P1 with SCM40 and SCM19 and thought they were a perfect match. They're not the prettiest though.

I think we have all done the blind faith bit once or twice, or moved up the chain without consideration of other manufacturers products.

like you i looked at chopping in my TT for the H2, but after hearing it i new it wasn't for me. Clear example of no guarantee a new product is better than the last, no matter how many reviews say to the contrary.

interestinly ive not heard the ATC amps driving the speakers, well other than in active form. I guess its the same amp just in external chassis.

Foxman50 posted:
analogmusic posted
You can’t really understand the Naim sound until you hear a properly set up Naim system.

it not about frequency response at all. It’s more about timing accuracy and emotional aspect of the music

so no other manufacturer produces equipment with timing accuracy and emotion. Interesting.

have you ever thought its just a simple matter of you having a preference for Naim. The brand?

many make comments on here about how the amps sound different to other but still blindly move up the ever costly chain. Each to there own i suppose but i would want to evaluate at each stage. Either the products have the same sound but provide more detail etc or they don't, the consesus seems to be they don't. Just my observations from others posts, but just look at comments made by the dr upgrade, makes a huge change to the sound signature.

One individual has just put an order down for the new Naim streamer without even hearing it. Whats that all about. £12K and not even heard it. Will they do any comparison with other products, lets see but i doubt it. You pays yer money and makes yer choice.

crazy hobby this, but by god don't it make interesting conversation 

No, I wouldn't pay this much money for a preference.

The Naim equipment has to perform musically for me.

 

 

 

Innocent Bystander posted:

Interesting simile  ...especially as when I have tried Red Bull I didn’t detect any effect on me, other than the lingering rather unpleasant aftertaste, I assume due to its artificial nature whether due to its active ingredient or its artificial flavouring.

The often vague hints more than direct statements about the ‘Naim sound” seem to suggest anything from an enhanced frequency band in the area covering the prime rhythmic information, to being ‘shouty’, to there being no house sound at all, while it has also been said to be different today from a so e years ago. This is what makes me prick up my ears when someone raises the subject of the ‘Naim sound’, trying to understand it better.

My own preference is for a natural sound.

When I had the Naim System the interaction between musicians was very exciting, ofcourse 'PRAT' existed but when I played classical to the  music something was missing but then my system was only entry level.  On bands such as Santana, or any bands Naim is second to none for toe tapping musical experience, but I still felt that the Naim sound added something akin  to the excitement factor to the whole sound.  As one rewier commented that the excitement factor is like grain added to digital photography to make it look like film.  Anyway its all subjective, lucky is the audiophile who has found his or her audio nirvana!

Hungryhalibut posted:

Thank you so much for going to the effort with all that detail, it’s absolutely perfect and much appreciated. ATC are sending me some 19A to try, but I was also wondering about the 40. My room is 12’ wide, and they’d be firing across that distance. 

The slight issue is that if I wanted to connect the speakers to the mains spur, which I would, I’d need to run the mains lead and din to XLR through a conduit behind the fireplace, which is not ideal with an unbalanced connection. ATC reckon it would be ok for the four feet of conduit. They don’t have 40s available so I’ll see how the 19s work. The 20 is the one I’m really interested in but they don’t have any available. 

I must say that the idea of not having tweaky burndies and SL wires rather appeals. We’ll see what transpires. 

Hi HungryHalibut,

did you receive those ATC , and if so , have you been able to hear them in your setup ?

Thanks

Simon

Hi Simon

Thanks for asking. In the end I decided not to try them. My system is sounding really good and I decided it would be daft to sell a 300 and wires that I’ve only had for six months, with the loss that would entail. I had some SL2s about ten years ago, sold them and wasn’t really satisfied with speakers until I got some more. It’s very easy to get carried away with an idea and sometimes, if you just do nothing, the idea simply goes away. I’m sure the ATCs are lovely, but it’s not the right time for me. 

The funny thing is that as soon as I gave up on the idea of trying the ATCs, my enjoyment of what I have improved. All the time you are thinking of something different, it’s like you are saying that what you have isn’t good enough. Which in the case of my system is just silly. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

Hi Simon

Thanks for asking. In the end I decided not to try them. My system is sounding really good and I decided it would be daft to sell a 300 and wires that I’ve only had for six months, with the loss that would entail. I had some SL2s about ten years ago, sold them and wasn’t really satisfied with speakers until I got some more. It’s very easy to get carried away with an idea and sometimes, if you just do nothing, the idea simply goes away. I’m sure the ATCs are lovely, but it’s not the right time for me. 

Very sensible. If the system pleases, leave it alone and just enjoy the music. 

Muttonjef posted:
analogmusic posted:

a most wise decision HangryHalibut  - I am not the least bit interested in trying ATC active speaker myself.

If it works, why try to break it? 

Blinkers on as usual!  

oh - so somebody doesn't like the ATC and you have to say something insipid and banal

what would be blinkers is for HH to try to waste his time on the  mongrel combination of Naim preamp and ATC speaker.

As I said, there's no need to try and improve on what Naim's engineers have spend thousands of hours on already.

 

 

 

 

 

analogmusic posted:
Muttonjef posted:
analogmusic posted:

a most wise decision HangryHalibut  - I am not the least bit interested in trying ATC active speaker myself.

If it works, why try to break it? 

Blinkers on as usual!  

oh - so somebody doesn't like the ATC and you have to say something insipid and banal

Some people will never understand Naim - and Naim never really wasted their time on those people.

 

If you actually would’ve heard any ATC speaker then your word would possibly have some weight behind it but you base your opinion of ATC on someone else saying that they didn’t like them in their system. That’s simply ridiculous. Please stop provoking people and bashing a brand you know nothing about, thank you. 

To HH: Good decision! If there’s nothing clearly wrong with your system, just listen and enjoy. 

analogmusic posted:
Muttonjef posted:
analogmusic posted:

a most wise decision HangryHalibut  - I am not the least bit interested in trying ATC active speaker myself.

If it works, why try to break it? 

Blinkers on as usual!  

oh - so somebody doesn't like the ATC and you have to say something insipid and banal

what would be blinkers is moving away from a full Naim system to a Mongrel ATC one.

 

 

 

No my comment said it all and not insipid and banal in any way.

You have never heard the ATC's and yet you say "I am not the least bit interested in trying ATC active speaker myself" So blinkered!!!

Speakers are a very personal choice and down to the individual, which I completely respect without question. Therefore I have no issue if someone doesn't like ATC's.

The fact that I moved away from Naim as my main system, was my choice and in no way a criticism of Naim. Therefore blinkers is very inappropriate as my ears and eyes were wide open, unlike yours.

 

Now hold on. There is no need for any argument here. It simply wasn’t the right time for me. It seems wholly inappropriate for Analogmusic to step in here and to slag off ATC. I’m sure they make great speakers. It seems very odd to refer to ‘mongrel systems’ when one has non Naim speakers and source. Naim is not the be all and end all, and it’s up to individuals to find what they like. My system is pure Naim but that’s not to say it wouldn’t be better with ATC speakers, or many others. Let’s live and let live. 

What you fail to understand in your ignorance and lack of understanding, is that Naim designed their amplifiers to work together, down to the very cable that links them together.

I've tried Naim preamp and Dynaudio active speakers, didn't work out (and Dynaudio is a much better match for Naim),  and while there are gains in clarity, the Naim boogie is gone..... Do you understand, can you understand that? 

It seems no. 

Life is too short and money too, and my Naim system makes me happy, so I would be very reckless indeed to trust your ears, (and who are you anyway? Some  guy on the Naim forum - who sold most of his Naim kit  ...) rather than my own and Naim's engineers.

Your comment is very much boring, mundane and banal. 

I am never  interested in views of people who sold their Naim kit. End of.

Analog .... I’m still very perplexed as to why a number of years ago, you criticised the Chord Hugo without ever hearing one.

Having done a complete u-turn, you are now a zeolot for all things Chord ... regularly quoting Rob Watts as some kind of Guru.

The same pattern appears to manifest itself regularly and now you turn your attention to ATC .... weird.

Either you are over enthusiastic and consider your posts somehow helpful, or as I suspect, you like to wind folk up.

Why not just listen to the music and enjoy ...

Yes I have ATC and Chord Hugo (and Naim), but don’t bang on about it.

Please don’t take offence ... absolutely none intended.

just a well intentioned reality check 😄

By all means it’s fine to comment on things you are qualified to .... but rather destructive and misleading if you are basing your opinions on little known facts, which are seemingly put across as fact.

Once again, no offence intended but it may help to consider the whole picture 😄

 

 

 

 

 

analogmusic posted:

What you fail to understand in your ignorance and blinkered mind, is that Naim designed their amplifiers to work together, down to the very cable that links them together.

I've tried Naim preamp and Dynaudio active speakers, didn't work out (and Dynaudio is a much better match for Naim),  and while there are gains in clarity, the Naim boogie is gone..... Do you understand, can you understand that? 

It seems no. 

Life is too short and money too, and my Naim system makes me happy, so I would be very stupid indeed to trust your ears, (and who are you anyway? Some strange guy on the Naim forum...) rather than my own and Naim's engineers.

Your comment is very much boring, mundane and banal.  

HH is correct, this isn't the playground!

I'm sure others will judge your comments with the contempt they clearly deserve.

 

Analog ... that's great and I sincerely hope that you achieve your chosen goal.

Just take care and ensure that you actually listen to the system before deciding that it is the panacea ... since there are other alternatives out there that may suit you better.

As ever, listening first and don't make assumptions based on the comments made by others.

It's all a matter of personal taste and making suggestions about possible solutions is absolutely fine ... as opposed to being intransigent about alternative options. 

It just gets a little irritating when trying to "preach" about there being only one way.

It's almost a decade of Naim ownership, and trying all kinds of Naim products and others too.

There's no company like Naim that have made a beginning to end system, from the source, amplifiers, crossovers, speakers, and cables.

Naim never compromises on engineering, and that is why I guess they simply  didn't attach an amp pack to the back panel of a speaker?

Naim got there decades ago, and I trust Naim products to be able to play music in a way that makes me forget I am listening to a hi-fi, and takes me back to the original performance....

Irritation is what comes to me when I listen to a compromised hi-fi system.... musical enjoyment is the goal...

 

analogmusic posted:

It's almost a decade of Naim ownership, and trying all kinds of Naim products and others too.

There's no company like Naim that have made a beginning to end system, from the source, amplifiers, crossovers, speakers, and cables.

Naim never compromises on engineering, and that is why I guess they simply  didn't attach an amp pack to the back panel of a speaker?

Naim got there decades ago, and I trust Naim products to be able to play music in a way that makes me forget I am listening to a hi-fi, and takes me back to the original performance....

Irritation is what comes to me when I listen to a compromised hi-fi system.... musical enjoyment is the goal...

 

Errrrr........Linn to name one! 

So when are you trading down to an nDAC from your DAVE? 

Oh dear, this has rather got out of hand. All that matters is whether people like the sound of music what they use. 

Analogmusic, interestingly a committed digitallistener, if I read this right you say Naim is best - but went for Dave (and Mojo). You rejected Dynaudio active speakers, and on that basis reject ATC actives? without having heard? And you say people should decide with their ears. Aren’t there some inconsistencies here...

analogmusic posted:

I’m on the search for those elusive SL2

with the aspiration for a Naim active system.... 

They crop up sufficiently regularly, though I don’t know how many potential buyers descend on each one. Most recent I’ve seen were advertised in March, possibly refreashed on 10th May though that is unclear. Still showing for sale (€3,500), but of course that doesn’t mean they are actually still available. From Italy (but if I was desperate enough for something I wouldn’t let the location stop me - I have sat on ferries for 7 hours and driven 700 miles to look at speakers, and bought an amp from Canada).

Likes (0)
×
×
×
×