bi-amping.

Common wisdom is that an amp higher up the range would produce better results than bi amping with two 'lessor' amplifiers. However, I have not tried it and really not qualified to state what would be better. You will need a second interconnect and two sets of speaker cables that would need to be factored into the equation

 

 

Perhaps you missed, check FAQs!

Topic, What is an Active System:

{ "FAQs, Thanks HH!

{{What is an Active System?

"Simple: it's the opposite of a passive system.

In a passive hi-fi system the job of dividing up music's high, middle and low frequencies so that they end up at the appropriate drive units in the loudspeaker is performed by an ..........................
....Finally, for what it's worth, bi-wiring and bi-amping (do not), whatever the hi-fi press or any other manufacturer might tell you, provide (similar) performance to a [properly designed] active system. Any of our franchised dealers will be more than happy to demonstrate this to you. ..........................

..............Bi-Wiring (NOT Active)

"Why does Naim not agree with bi-wiring and tri-wiring passive loudspeakers?

It's true that we are not great fans of multi-wiring passive loudspeakers in accordance with current vogue. Our belief is that if the crossover has been correctly designed, a single run of cable between amplifier and loudspeaker offers the best sound, as well as making it easier for the amplifier to drive safely.

Obviously, if the speaker crossover has been deliberately designed to sound better when bi- or tri-wired, then it quite possibly will; but that's not to say that it wouldn't sound better overall if it were designed for single wiring in the first place, as our speakers are."


In Addition:-
No Naim speaker is suitable for bi-wiring. }}
INFORMATION IS KEY!
A. Does Naim frown upon Bi-wiring?
Yes, don't do it!
 
B. Can Naim Speakers, be Bi-Amped Passively?
No!!!!!
 
C. Can Naim Speakers, be Bi-Amped Actively?
Yes, purchase a  Snaxo, PS, and an additional amp!
 
D. Is an Active System,  the Best That Naim has to Offer?????????
 
Ask the Active 500 Club!
Ask Tonym!
Ask DB!
Enjoy your Music!
Allante93!
 
Stephanie Gelder posted:

Thanks :-) 

So naim ethos is no (with regards to bi-amp). Simple answer.

"Finally, for what it's worth, bi-wiring and bi-amping (do not), whatever the hi-fi press or any other manufacturer might tell you, provide (similar) performance to a [properly designed] active system. Any of our franchised dealers will be more than happy to demonstrate this to you."

Beachcomber posted:

How about active Statement?

Like most companies, NAIM has done a turnaround on just about all of it's "philosophy" statements (no pun intended).  Fancy power cables - no way - makes no sense.  Fancy interconnects -no way - makes no sense.  Directional cable - no way - what idiot came up with that idea (all quotes from Julian himself).  

Same with Linn and their early excuses for the rather chintzy subchassis/armboard interface - now we have a $3000 Keel with integral armboard!

It's little wonder that the skeptics want double blind evaluations and comparisons. 

sktn77a posted:
Beachcomber posted:

How about active Statement?

Like most companies, NAIM has done a turnaround on just about all of it's "philosophy" statements (no pun intended).  Fancy power cables - no way - makes no sense.  Fancy interconnects -no way - makes no sense.  Directional cable - no way - what idiot came up with that idea (all quotes from Julian himself).  

Same with Linn and their early excuses for the rather chintzy subchassis/armboard interface - now we have a $3000 Keel with integral armboard!

It's little wonder that the skeptics want double blind evaluations and comparisons. 

Yes, and No, to stay on Topic and quotes let go back in time! 

OP''s Topic Bi-amping!  Which can be confusing!  But to keep it simple Bi-Amping, Two Amps. 

Not to be confused with Bi-Wiring, which can easily be done with one Amp! Julian knew that was a gimmick used by cable manufactures back in the day,  And even if you bring it up to date, the speaker manufacture can just as easily implement as single wire construct, that could have the same impact as the  bi- wire construct. 

But in the end, its about the Speaker, Can your Speaker, can your speaker even be implemented into an Active System. 

The Ovator 800s & 600's yes, the 400s, No! 

In Any Event lets go back to an Interview with Julian, very brief, which one can easily see, which came first, out of simplicity:

 

""Vereker: You have to have them away from the wall, but since we've only got a couple of pairs, we haven't had the opportunity to go around in all the different rooms to see what happens. They don't seem to be particularly critical. They just need to have air behind them. In one of our listening rooms, which is very, very small, it was quite surprising how nicely they worked.

At the moment, we haven't got the passive crossover, so they're tri-amped using the Naim external crossover. But there will be two versions, and you can order it either way. Inside the bias box which lives inside the speaker, there's space to put an internal passive crossover so you can use it either way. An economy-minded consumer could start out with one small Naim amp and later change over from passive to active crossovers. People who are not into enormous levels will be pleasantly surprised.""

 {Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/co...#2dauQ7hzWlQMhrlp.99 ""}

 

So with that Vein of Thought, The More Things Change, The More They Stay The Same! 

The Purist Route, even though the Gap has been narrowed is from an external calibrated crossover, to the amps, then directly to the Drivers! 

@ the OP, So if you are curious about your 272 being Bi-Amped, First off are your speakers up to the Task! 

It might be costly, with and additional 250 DR, and preferably and SCDR, and The Snaxo, but when its all said and done, yes it will be of better SQ! 

But at what Price!  Perhaps an Passive 252, with one single 300 DR, might bring more to the Party! 

 

In the Meanwhile, Enjoy your Music! 

Allante93! 

 

Well... if I do I'll just get the piss taken out of them with the only suggestion being statement amps :-) 

PMC twenty.23 as per about the 5th post in the thread where I did put them :-)

 

sorry  that sounded more grumpy than I meant it to sound. As per the previous post not looking down the fully active route :-) 

Some of the posts on this thread seem to be away with the fairies. The twenty.23s are super speakers. When I first got my 272/250 I had the PMCs and the system worked really well. I wouldn't bother biamping them, but would aim for a 250DR. An XPSDR can come later. Get F connections on the speaker leads to dispense with the nasty biwire links. It'll make an audible difference. 

Many moons ago, having acquired a NAP 300, I tried bi-amping, using my existing 250.2.

It was not a happy experiment, and I reported at the time that music had become "oppressive" and leaden footed, which description was confirmed by several forum members.

It does seem to hold true that a superior amp will outperform a bi-amped combination of two lesser amps, so, as others have suggested, I'd keep looking at a 300 instead ........... it's a super piece of kit, and there are occasional bargains to be had when folks do as I did, and move up to the DR version.

dave marshall posted:

Many moons ago, having acquired a NAP 300, I tried bi-amping, using my existing 250.2.

It was not a happy experiment, and I reported at the time that music had become "oppressive" and leaden footed, which description was confirmed by several forum members.

It does seem to hold true that a superior amp will outperform a bi-amped combination of two lesser amps, so, as others have suggested, I'd keep looking at a 300 instead ........... it's a super piece of kit, and there are occasional bargains to be had when folks do as I did, and move up to the DR version.

Many years ago, Julian new the Active route was the purist route!

Hence, his proto type, did not employ an passive crossover!

But later the bias box was supplemented with an passive crossover, but initially, it was the external active crossover!

 Julian's upgrade Path:

Naim's Speaker ran passively with one Amp, then when funds permitted, an additional amp with Naim's external crossover!

{{Repeat Naim Speakers can't be Passively Bi-Amped!}}


HH, and Mr Richard Dane, has mentioned on several occasions, that Naim Speakers, can't be Passively Bi-Amped!

My Question, again, What Speakers are being used.

I started with a single
LK 280, then upgraded to Passive Bi-Amped Briks, than upgraded to Full Blown Aktiv Briks!

Of course, the latter was the cat's meow, but upgrading from a single LK-280 to a Spark on the Bass and mid, and LK-280, on the tweeter, was quite an improvement, to say the least!

But that was Linn's upgrade path, the Isobariks CAN be Passively Bi & Tri-Amped, whereas Naim Speakers CAN'T.

So I,m using LINN'S Upgrade Path with my Briks:

Passive Bi-amped > Passive Tri-Amped

Then NAIM'S upgrade Path with my Briks:

Passive Tri-Amped Briks> Active Snaxo Briks!

The Question that begs to answered, what Speakers are being used when bi-amping with Naim's Amps????

Allante93!

PS. It can't be Naim's Speakers!

Richard Dane posted:

Well, for the benefit of others and just to avoid any possible confusion here; while it's true that you can't passively bi-amp a pair of SL2s, you can actively bi-amp them by removing the passive crossover and using an appropriate active crossover and additional amp(s).  Same goes for SBLs, IBLs, later Intros, Credos and Allaes. DBLs and NBLs can be actively tri-amped in a similar way.

The point here is that in the realm of Naim, when Naim refer to bi-amping and tri-amping, it's taken as read that this means active rather than passive.

Allante93 yet again asked what speakers I told you at least twice pmc twenty.23 . 5th post was first time and second was a few up!! 

Also as I said I got the idea it's no x posts ago hence saying drooling over a 300.... second ha d as opposed to a new 250.... 

 or would you like to repeat yourself for the nth time.

I am unclear as to the advantage/cost benefit of passive biamping (two amps in parallel connected to the two pairs of connections on the back of the speaker with the links removed, so utilising the speakers' own internal crossover: probably some benefit, possibly depending on how susceptible the amp is to intermodulation distortion! But not the full benefit of active triamping e crossover in the speakers.

However, PMC speakers generally seem to have crossovers that are removeable, so with a bit of simple DIY and adding an active crossover you could go fully active bi-amp, which almost certainly will be distinctly advantageous compared to your current system (though I would not presume to guess how it would compare to passive with a single much better amp).

Regarding active crossover, Snaxo is the obvious choice, but a cheap alternative reputedly surprisingly good for its cost is the Behringer DCX2496, which could be good for an i terim play before taking the leap with Snaxo.

dave marshall posted:

Many moons ago, having acquired a NAP 300, I tried bi-amping, using my existing 250.2.

It was not a happy experiment, and I reported at the time that music had become "oppressive" and leaden footed, which description was confirmed by several forum members.

It does seem to hold true that a superior amp will outperform a bi-amped combination of two lesser amps, so, as others have suggested, I'd keep looking at a 300 instead ........... it's a super piece of kit, and there are occasional bargains to be had when folks do as I did, and move up to the DR version.

Was that passive or active bi-amping?

Innocent Bystander posted:

I am unclear as to the advantage/cost benefit of passive biamping (two amps in parallel connected to the two pairs of connections on the back of the speaker with the links removed, so utilising the speakers' own internal crossover: probably some benefit, possibly depending on how susceptible the amp is to intermodulation distortion! But not the full benefit of active triamping e crossover in the speakers.

However, PMC speakers generally seem to have crossovers that are removeable, so with a bit of simple DIY and adding an active crossover you could go fully active bi-amp, which almost certainly will be distinctly advantageous compared to your current system (though I would not presume to guess how it would compare to passive with a single much better amp).

Regarding active crossover, Snaxo is the obvious choice, but a cheap alternative reputedly surprisingly good.

Passive biamping changes the sound in my setup, which is not too much of a surprise since I compared NAP 250 DR vs. NAP 200 + NAP 250 DR in biamp configuration. It's not an ideal setup as the correct way to do it is to use two identical amps ie. 2 X NAP 250 DR with identical speaker wires of similar length. I am convinced that a "proper" biamp setup will bring an improvement , slight or appreciable.

The issue of sound improvement or cost advantage with biamping which you have mentioned above is relevant. From my limited experience, I suspect passive biamping is not cost efficient and not particularly a VFM route of doing things.

Stephanie Gelder posted:

Allante93 yet again asked what speakers I told you at least twice pmc twenty.23 . 5th post was first time and second was a few up!! 

Also as I said I got the idea it's no x posts ago hence saying drooling over a 300.... second ha d as opposed to a new 250.... 

 or would you like to repeat yourself for the nth time.

My Bad Mr. Gelder, the only point I was attempting to make, was that Naim Speakers can't be Passively Bi-Amped and Briks can, Which happens to show some Affinity towards Naim Amps.

Not that your PMCs don't, but in Either case the gains of Active Bi- Amping is far Greater than Passive Bi-Amping.

This I know, I have walked that Path!

But to you point, there are plenty of Amps that could probably be Passively Bi- Amped with Naim Amps!

{And your PMCs are added to the list!}

But not let us,  forget the Linn/Naim Merger:

Naim in the Middle, Sandwiched

between Linn!

LP 12 > Naim> Isobariks

That's all my friend, didn't mean to be annoying!

Allante93!

Innocent Bystander posted:

I am unclear as to the advantage/cost benefit of passive biamping .......

However, PMC speakers generally seem to have crossovers that are removeable, so with a bit of simple DIY and adding an active crossover you could go fully active bi-amp, which almost certainly will be distinctly advantageous compared to your current system (though I would not presume to guess how it would compare to passive with a single much better amp). { going out on the limb, better Single Amp }

Regarding active crossover, Snaxo is the obvious choice,

{general consensus}

but a cheap alternative reputedly surprisingly good for its cost is the Behringer DCX2496, which could be good for an i terim play before taking the leap with Snaxo.

I couldn't agree more!

 

dave marshall posted:

That was passive, with the 300 on the midrange / treble side of things and the 250.2 lookIng after the bass.

Just didn't work for me at all.

Dave was that with your Neat MF9s?

"..Finally, for what it's worth, bi-wiring and bi-amping (do not), whatever the hi-fi press or any other manufacturer might tell you, provide (similar) performance to a [properly designed] active system. Any of our franchised dealers will be more than happy to demonstrate this to you. .........................."

Allante93!

PS, If the Path, or intent, is not Aimed at Active Bi-Amping, it's more than likely, not worthwhile!

Allante93 posted:
Innocent Bystander posted:

but a cheap alternative reputedly surprisingly good for its cost is the Behringer DCX2496, which could be good for an i terim play before taking the leap with Snaxo.

I couldn't agree more!

 

Snaxo it is. Allante93,  you should cut down on any expense and save every penny and dime for getting that Snaxo and Supercap / Hicap.

What are you currently using as crossover? I don't understand how you tri-amped your briks.

Ardbeg10y posted: 

Snaxo it is. Allante93,  you should cut down on any expense and save every penny and dime for getting that Snaxo and Supercap / Hicap.

{U got that right}!!!!!!!!

What are you currently using as crossover? I don't understand how you tri-amped your briks.

Allante93 posted:

@ Lyndon! 

I Cleaned and cut the the Bridges myself, with the aid of the Naim Forum, Nice bunch of Guys! 

That's it Lyndon! 

Now for the rest of you, 

REPEAT, THIS CAN ONLY BE DONE WITH THE BRIKS, AS HH, AND MR. RICHARD DANE HAS POINTED OUT! 

Is it all that?  NO, but I can tell that I do have more head room, and my 250.2 is no longer running hot and shutting down like it was when I was Bi amping with 200 & 250.2. 

That's why I Sold the 200, and purchased two more 250.2s.  2012 and 2015. 

Next Step, Active Tri-Amped Briks, with Snaxo. 

For now Passive Tri-Amped Briks, without Snaxo, or SC! 

Got it!

Hope that helped Lyndon. 

Enjoy your Music! 

Allante93! 

PS, my HCDR, has the same three outputs as the Above SC has, didn't feel like going into my Library and copying it to photebuckgt! 

PS. Not directed at you Ardbeg, just stole it from a previous thread!

But you are right, not a penny on fancy wires etc.. But I did purchase 6 sets of Naim Cups & Balls!

Peace out!

@ Ardbeg10y:

 

The Crossover incorporated beneath the Briks, within Stands made for the Briks! 

Notice how the Nac A4/Linn K-20 Speaker Cable, that is used from the internal/external XO, is routed directly to the inputs of the Isobariks! 

Not Bad in Passive Mode, but can't wait to take that XO out of the Equation! 

I thought it best not to change Speaker Cable, until I take the XO out of the equation, at that point, I will be eyeballing that Archaic Chord Signature Speaker Cable, I always thought it was well put together!  

How bad can it Be!!!!

Allante93! 

PS. Those Bricks  weigh a ton, What ever happened to Real Craftsmanship!  

@ Lyndon, its easy, but not to be mis-leading, as HH, and Richard Dane has said, Naim Speakers can't be Passively Bi, or Tri-Amped! 

But Linn Isobariks, that's another Story.

First in the rear of the SC, and HC their are three outputs.  That's where your 3 amps are connected. 4 pin Din to XLR with the three 250.2's . 

Now, From the back of the amps run the three pair of speaker wires to the Crossover in the above picture. The first stage was done on the Crossover, back in the  day I Bi-Amped my LK 280's, before I went Full Blown Active with LP 12>Ghenki> Linn XO with Bingo Card, Linn Dirack PS> Briks. 

But That's it simple! The only thing I had to do was cut the three wire Bridge, to allow the Cross over to go into Tri Amp Mode. 

250.2 > Tweeters 

2502 > Midrange

250.2 >  Bass

Is it all that ??????  No!!!! 

But as I said for the umpteenth  time it is the Path towards an Naim Active System! 

Is an Naim Active System All that? I don't know, ask the 500 Club! 

Ask DB, he had Active Briks with 552 and 3 x 500s . 

Of Course, he's moved on to Active 800s with Naim's Top of the Line Pre Amp! 

But that's it Lyndon, run the three amps from the rear of HCDR, or SCDR, which ever PS you are using to power your Pre-Amp. 

Then that signal is directed to the three amps, which in return is directed to the Crossover, shown above, which is directed to the inputs on the rear of the Bricks!!!!!

REPEAT, TEMPORARY UNTIL I PURCHASE A SNAXO 362 AND SC WITH THE BURNDY GOING FROM THE SC TO THE SNAXO, THEN THE SNAXO WILL DELIVER THE  SIGNALS TO THE REAR OF THE BRIKS THREE WAY SPEAKER. 

HENCE, ELIMINATING THAT CROSSOVER SHOWN ABOVE! 

Hope that answers your question Lyndon! 

Allante93! 

Christopher_M posted:
Allante93 posted:
Next Step, Active Tri-Amped Briks, with Snaxo. 
Can't come soon enough imo  ;-)

 

I'm Broke Chris, I'm still rocking a 36 inch picture tube in the Rec Room!

Maybe Christmas!

Anyhow MM>Airport Extreme>Airport Express>Emotiva Dac 1>Primare Pre 30> Arcam PF1 mono Blocks> Vienna Acoustics Baby Grands. 

Hence, Vienna Acoustics all the way around. I have been listening to these speakers the last 6 years, Great Speakers, the Wall mounted speakers are sleek, and Amazing! 

Before I remolded this room the 36 inch picture tube accompanied an Acurus Act 3 & Linn Sizmick, never heard Vienna Acoustics with TV, not All timers, but Some timers!

I'm drawing a Blank! 

It was a phantom Center!

But the Act 3, got a glitch in it:

Sold Act 3, Linn Sizmick, Linn Ghenki, LinnLP 12, Linn Kans, 

It might have been 4 x Kans, Act 3, and Sizmick! 

Anyhow, kick but! The Matrix shooting scene!

I'm getting long winded!

Goodnight, Morning! LOL......

I love Hi-Fi!

Just finished off the 18 year! 

Holliday Weekend! 

Trust me it's all Good!

Allante93! 

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