Brexit - the final throes....

Christopher_M posted:

Britain is leaving the EU. My question for Leavers is would you prefer to leave on the terms negotiated by the government with the EU, or would you prefer to leave with 'no deal'?

Chris

Sorry Chris - I genuinely don't believe a "no deal" option is on the table as a choice. It would have been before the GE but not now.

winkyincanada posted:
ynwa250505 posted:
naim_nymph posted:
Jonners posted:

We are not at the point where we're talking about leaving without a deal yet. This is just for transition period to be used as a basis on which to negotiate the final exit deal and a lot of folk are forgetting that. Why would a Peoples' Vote be needed for that when it's not a permanent arrangement?

Jonners, 

there is no need to cling to the reality-denial dreams of Mrs May and her despots diehards [ and deserters ] of Brexit. The unfolding deal [ or no deal ] is not what any of the UK people voted for in the 2016 referendum, and here in 2018 Mrs May's very dodgy deal will not gain enough votes in the HOC.

It's a dead duck from day one : (

From the start Brexit has been, and will always be based on a false prospectus. But all is not lost [ yet ] we still have time for a Peoples vote which will gain confirmation of the real will of the people, and which is highly likely to vote Remain within the EU.

Here is a very agreeable read, that puts the situation into an easy to understand context: 

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/...to-admit-that-truth/

This “very agreeable read” is of course nothing of the sort. It is a one-sided, utterly biased diatribe excoriating those voted to leave the EU. The article is one of the most disdainful of our electorate that I have read. Note that both the LSE and the LSE’s Brexit blog disown his views.

The author is an ex-employee of the EU and well known for his love of all things French and EU-related.

I found it agreeable. Your ad-hominem attack on the author is not. To allege that people were misinformed (which the majority of voters undoubtedly were) is not "excoriating" anybody except those peddling the misinformation. He was not disdainful of the electorate in the slightest. You appear overly sensitive.

P.S. I am disdainful of many of those who voted to leave, but for reasons Howorth doesn't even touch on, and which are off limits on this forum.

Remind me - which way did you vote?

Christopher_M posted:

Britain is leaving the EU. My question for Leavers is would you prefer to leave on the terms negotiated by the government with the EU, or would you prefer to leave with 'no deal'?

Chris

The terms negotiated by the Government do not represent a departure from the EU.

No Deal is, by far, the preferable option.

ynwa250505 posted:

This “very agreeable read” is of course nothing of the sort. It is a one-sided, utterly biased diatribe excoriating those voted to leave the EU. The article is one of the most disdainful of our electorate that I have read. Note that both the LSE and the LSE’s Brexit blog disown his views.

The author is an ex-employee of the EU and well known for his love of all things French and EU-related.

I fail to understand how loving "all things French and EU-related" disqualifies the author.

I also fail to understand how the blog can be interpreted as disdainful... "The electorate was sold a myth" is perfectly true.

The LSE and the Brexit blog don't disown the views of the author - ALL posts conclude with the same sentence: "This post represents the views of the author and neither those of the LSE Brexit blog nor of the LSE."

It's neither "a very agreeable read" nor an "utterly biased diatribe"...

Christopher_M posted:

Britain is leaving the EU. My question for Leavers is would you prefer to leave on the terms negotiated by the government with the EU, or would you prefer to leave with 'no deal'?

Chris

I'm a Remainer but have two comments:


i) Britain is not necessarily leaving, there's everything to play for.  The deceit of the leave-leaders is being exposed and opinions are moving fast.

ii) The only practical approach is something like May's deal (though I agree with a 'leave' poster who made the point that the default is leave with no deal).  There's no way that parliament will accept leaving with no deal and if unable to come to a deal then this returns to parliament.  Frankly the ERG are laughable, they've been bullying their way and have finally been exposed as not having the support they claimed. 

SamClaus posted:
ynwa250505 posted:

This “very agreeable read” is of course nothing of the sort. It is a one-sided, utterly biased diatribe excoriating those voted to leave the EU. The article is one of the most disdainful of our electorate that I have read. Note that both the LSE and the LSE’s Brexit blog disown his views.

The author is an ex-employee of the EU and well known for his love of all things French and EU-related.

I fail to understand how loving "all things French and EU-related" disqualifies the author.

I also fail to understand how the blog can be interpreted as disdainful... "The electorate was sold a myth" is perfectly true.

The LSE and the Brexit blog don't disown the views of the author - ALL posts conclude with the same sentence: "This post represents the views of the author and neither those of the LSE Brexit blog nor of the LSE."

It's neither "a very agreeable read" nor an "utterly biased diatribe"...

Then we’ll just have to disagree ...

Mike1951 posted:

There is, of course, a third choice recently surfacing, even from the mouth of the reluctant Leaver In Chief herself.

No Brexit.

The UK could still, just, you know...

not do it.

Yep.

and if the politicians feel exposed in any way doing that, all they need to do is have a referendum to assess the current view of the people, with the fuller information now known to them : true democracy, empowering, and wise. It is argued against, of course, by those who aren’t interested in those reasons for doing, simply either wanting Brexit because circumstances will give them personal gain and not being bothered adout the negative effect on a far greater number of people, or wanting Brexit out of a notional concept of ‘freedom’ (with those on this forum not having been able able to point to anything Britain would do differently that it can’t now).

Roll on wisdom and democracy, or simply Government deciding that leaving is not in the best interests of the country, whether because the deal available is too much like continued membership but with reduced benefits or influence, or because no deal has too many disbenefits.

Mike1951 posted:

There is, of course, a third choice recently surfacing, even from the mouth of the reluctant Leaver In Chief herself.

No Brexit.

The UK could still, just, you know...

not do it.

That would be the best outcome.  I thought Tony Blair summarised the current choice very well. He said it's a choice between a "pointless" and "painful" outcome. Pointless being TM's draft deal which gains little or no benefit and surrenders significant control to the EU (JR-M also characterises it in those terms); and painful being leaving with no deal.  Surely if there is no 'beneficial' choice available it would be better to stick with what we've got?  

Mike1951 posted:

There is, of course, a third choice recently surfacing, even from the mouth of the reluctant Leaver In Chief herself.

No Brexit.

The UK could still, just, you know...

not do it.

Yes, I agree that (remote) possibility does exist - in fact, I believe this is what the Elites of Brussels (who seem to be as committed to “the Project” as life itself) and Westminster have been conniving at, for different reasons, ever since the failure of Project Fear. For the good of democracy, let us hope they don’t succeed.

 

MDS posted:
Mike1951 posted:

There is, of course, a third choice recently surfacing, even from the mouth of the reluctant Leaver In Chief herself.

No Brexit.

The UK could still, just, you know...

not do it.

That would be the best outcome.  I thought Tony Blair summarised the current choice very well. He said it's a choice between a "pointless" and "painful" outcome. Pointless being TM's draft deal which gains little or no benefit and surrenders significant control to the EU (JR-M also characterises it in those terms); and painful being leaving with no deal.  Surely if there is no 'beneficial' choice available it would be better to stick with what we've got?  

Tony Blair? What a pathetic no-hoper - he wanted the UK to join the Euro FFS! He should get back to the lecture circuit where he gets more attention ...

”Painful” is the better option by far. Remaining in the EU is certainly not beneficial to the majority who voted to leave.

 

Innocent Bystander posted:
Mike1951 posted:

There is, of course, a third choice recently surfacing, even from the mouth of the reluctant Leaver In Chief herself.

No Brexit.

The UK could still, just, you know...

not do it.

Yep.

and if the politicians feel exposed in any way doing that, all they need to do is have a referendum to assess the current view of the people, with the fuller information now known to them : true democracy, empowering, and wise. It is argued against, of course, by those who aren’t interested in those reasons for doing, simply either wanting Brexit because circumstances will give them personal gain and not being bothered adout the negative effect on a far greater number of people, or wanting Brexit out of a notional concept of ‘freedom’ (with those on this forum not having been able able to point to anything Britain would do differently that it can’t now).

Roll on wisdom and democracy, or simply Government deciding that leaving is not in the best interests of the country, whether because the deal available is too much like continued membership but with reduced benefits or influence, or because no deal has too many disbenefits.

We’ve done the democracy thing and a majority of the largest electoral turnout EVER have spoken so why don’t you stop your interminable waffle about wanting another vote in the name of democracy ffs?

Why not be honest and just say you want to overturn the result of the previous referendum because you don’t like the result?

”...wisdom and democracy...” indeed! Sour grapes is more accurate!

 

ynwa250505 posted:
Mike1951 posted:

There is, of course, a third choice recently surfacing, even from the mouth of the reluctant Leaver In Chief herself.

No Brexit.

The UK could still, just, you know...

not do it.

Yes, I agree that (remote) possibility does exist - in fact, I believe this is what the Elites of Brussels (who seem to be as committed to “the Project” as life itself) and Westminster have been conniving at, for different reasons, ever since the failure of Project Fear.  For the good of democracy, let us hope they don’t succeed.

 

For the good of democracy, let’s have a referendum and see what people want now, which may or may not be what the majority said 2½ years ago.

As for “project fear”, that ridiculous branding as an attempted dismissal of all things Brexiteers didn’t want to believe, didn’t want others to hear, or simply denied without and better arguments to counter them, has long since been done to death. Failure yes:  failure of the Brexiteers to show any good would come of Brexit, and their inability to do other than shout “no proof” when anyone pointed out anything negative, thus not showing that there was any “Project Fear”in the first place.

ynwa250505 posted:

We’ve done the democracy thing and a majority of the largest electoral turnout EVER have spoken so why don’t you stop your interminable waffle about wanting another vote in the name of democracy ffs?

Why not be honest and just say you want to overturn the result of the previous referendum because you don’t like the result?

”...wisdom and democracy...” indeed! Sour grapes is more accurate!

 

Yes, of course I want the thing reversed. As for democracy, the whole point  is to find out what the majority want - and as has been pointed out by so many, not just by me, the original referendum was not undertaken with any real information, and with much false information. You are just afraid of the outcome if there was to be proper democracy and a referendum now, just before finalising the deed. Afraid you would not get whatever you perceive You would gain from it, and not wanting it put to the vote because in your heart of hearts you recognise that the view of the people is indeed different now from the time of the original referendum, so you are terrified that they may indeed decide to go for another referendum. That is, at least, the impression you give.

ynwa250505 posted:

Yes, I agree that (remote) possibility does exist - in fact, I believe this is what the Elites of Brussels (who seem to be as committed to “the Project” as life itself) and Westminster have been conniving at, for different reasons, ever since the failure of Project Fear. For the good of democracy, let us hope they don’t succeed.

 

Project Fear...

Oh yes...

The attempt to paint the executive branch of the EU administration as a bunch of faceless, unaccountable, unelected bureaucratic oligarchs, determined to suppress the British people by turning our government into nothing more than a worthless talking shop pandering to the whims of the German and French politicians and hell bent punishing us for having the temerity of activating Article 50; and quite unlike our own diligent, fully accountable Civil Service, working tirelessly to fully implement the will of our elected representatives.
Yes, Project Fear...

Innocent Bystander posted:
ynwa250505 posted:

We’ve done the democracy thing and a majority of the largest electoral turnout EVER have spoken so why don’t you stop your interminable waffle about wanting another vote in the name of democracy ffs?

Why not be honest and just say you want to overturn the result of the previous referendum because you don’t like the result?

”...wisdom and democracy...” indeed! Sour grapes is more accurate!

 

Yes, of course I want the thing reversed. As for democracy, the whole point  is to find out what the majority want - and as has been pointed out by so many, not just by me, the original referendum was not undertaken with any real information, and with much false information. You are just afraid of the outcome if there was to be proper democracy and a referendum now, just before finalising the deed. Afraid you would not get whatever you perceive You would gain from it, and not wanting it put to the vote because in your heart of hearts you recognise that the view of the people is indeed different now from the time of the original referendum, so you are terrified that they may indeed decide to go for another referendum. That is, at least, the impression you give.

The above point is spot on. What kind of democracy is based on ignorance, lies and deceit.

Innocent Bystander posted:
ynwa250505 posted:
Mike1951 posted:

There is, of course, a third choice recently surfacing, even from the mouth of the reluctant Leaver In Chief herself.

No Brexit.

The UK could still, just, you know...

not do it.

Yes, I agree that (remote) possibility does exist - in fact, I believe this is what the Elites of Brussels (who seem to be as committed to “the Project” as life itself) and Westminster have been conniving at, for different reasons, ever since the failure of Project Fear.  For the good of democracy, let us hope they don’t succeed.

 

For the good of democracy, let’s have a referendum and see what people want now, which may or may not be what the majority said 2½ years ago.

As for “project fear”, that ridiculous branding as an attempted dismissal of all things Brexiteers didn’t want to believe, didn’t want others to hear, or simply denied without and better arguments to counter them, has long since been done to death. Failure yes:  failure of the Brexiteers to show any good would come of Brexit, and their inability to do other than shout “no proof” when anyone pointed out anything negative, thus not showing that there was any “Project Fear”in the first place.

How many referendums do you want? At what point will “democracy” be served?

”Project Fear” is the branding given to the lies, deceit and false forecasts peddled by the machinery of Government, aided by the civil service, the IMF, the EU, numerous global political leaders, the Bank of England and various corporate leaders and academics from here and abroad - every one of whom had a vested interest in the status quo!

Not deceived by all that - a majority of “ordinary people” - without any vested interest - voted to leave. That’s called democracy!

THen there is the other side. The rumours I hear from the EU side is that they worry they already given to much. They openly stated there is no re-neg  on the negotiated deal with the UK government. The message on extending the A50 is also openly stated. No extension for negotiations. Maybe a month for a vote.

Now if the UK replace May with some of the brexit-boys. What can he do? Nothing! The EU27 again openly stated they negotiated a deal with the UK goverment (i.e. not personally with May or Raab). 

If the negotiated deal is voted down in London it leaves two options. No-deal or no-brexit. Possibly via a vote.

You can always say that the ’no-reneg’ position is a bluff. I am not so sure,  the EU27 (of which 22 is UK:s NATO-buddies) is pretty tired of brexit now (and stunts like the UK foreign minister calling them a Soviet gulag a few weeks ago). Yesterday afternoon I heard an interview with the head of the german central bank. He was asked about brexit and his view was that even a no-deal break would not be more than small blip for the german economy - his biggest problem for the german economy during 2019 is the need to hire more poeple for their industry, the large immigration Merkel allowed was not enough.

Much of this this is speculation of course. 

 

Innocent Bystander posted:
ynwa250505 posted:

We’ve done the democracy thing and a majority of the largest electoral turnout EVER have spoken so why don’t you stop your interminable waffle about wanting another vote in the name of democracy ffs?

Why not be honest and just say you want to overturn the result of the previous referendum because you don’t like the result?

”...wisdom and democracy...” indeed! Sour grapes is more accurate!

 

Yes, of course I want the thing reversed. As for democracy, the whole point  is to find out what the majority want - and as has been pointed out by so many, not just by me, the original referendum was not undertaken with any real information, and with much false information. You are just afraid of the outcome if there was to be proper democracy and a referendum now, just before finalising the deed. Afraid you would not get whatever you perceive You would gain from it, and not wanting it put to the vote because in your heart of hearts you recognise that the view of the people is indeed different now from the time of the original referendum, so you are terrified that they may indeed decide to go for another referendum. That is, at least, the impression you give.

Well we know what the majority want ...

We want to leave that corrupt, undemocratic, sclerotic, bullying (and if you insist, I can evidence all those adjectives) institution that only exists for the benefit of political elites in Brussels and Westminster with their snouts in the trough.

And if there is to be another referendum, then I say FFS BRING IT ON!!! Arouse the referendum-wanting rabble and get them to agitate for it!!!

And in the next referendum campaign, we will have the evidence of the intentions of the conniving, back-stabbing elites here and abroad who remain determined to frustrate the democratic opinion of the UK to consider.

This issue is never going to go away until we are free of the bullying shackles of the EU - who are determined to impose political union on the nations of Europe, controlled from Brussels, with national governments subordinated to the will of Brussels. You think that will work? You want to be controlled by an unelected faceless bureaucracy from another country? We don’t - but hey, you go for it ...

jlarsson posted:

THen there is the other side. The rumours I hear from the EU side is that they worry they already given to much. They openly stated there is no re-neg  on the negotiated deal with the UK government. The message on extending the A50 is also openly stated. No extension for negotiations. Maybe a month for a vote.

Now if the UK replace May with some of the brexit-boys. What can he do? Nothing! The EU27 again openly stated they negotiated a deal with the UK goverment (i.e. not personally with May or Raab). 

If the negotiated deal is voted down in London it leaves two options. No-deal or no-brexit. Possibly via a vote.

You can always say that the ’no-reneg’ position is a bluff. I am not so sure,  the EU27 (of which 22 is UK:s NATO-buddies) is pretty tired of brexit now (and stunts like the UK foreign minister calling them a Soviet gulag a few weeks ago). Yesterday afternoon I heard an interview with the head of the german central bank. He was asked about brexit and his view was that even a no-deal break would not be more than small blip for the german economy - his biggest problem for the german economy during 2019 is the need to hire more poeple for their industry, the large immigration Merkel allowed was not enough.

Much of this this is speculation of course. 

 

I suggest you stop speculating - it isn’t adding anything constructive to our debate.

ynwa250505 posted:

Well we know what the majority want ...

Indeed: a recent survey of >20,000 people indicated that a majority now support remaining in the EU.  In fact the majority for remain was by a larger percentage margin than that by which the [now out of date] original referendum indicated to leave.

ynwa250505 posted:

Well we know what the majority want ...

We want to leave that corrupt, undemocratic, sclerotic, bullying (and if you insist, I can evidence all those adjectives) institution that only exists for the benefit of political elites in Brussels and Westminster with their snouts in the trough.

And if there is to be another referendum, then I say FFS BRING IT ON!!! Arouse the referendum-wanting rabble and get them to agitate for it!!!

And in the next referendum campaign, we will have the evidence of the intentions of the conniving, back-stabbing elites here and abroad who remain determined to frustrate the democratic opinion of the UK to consider.

This issue is never going to go away until we are free of the bullying shackles of the EU - who are determined to impose political union on the nations of Europe, controlled from Brussels, with national governments subordinated to the will of Brussels. You think that will work? You want to be controlled by an unelected faceless bureaucracy from another country? We don’t - but hey, you go for it ...

We absolutely do NOT know what the majority want. Present tense.  All we do know is the outcome of the referendum 2½ years and an awful lot of mileage ago. Everything I have said stands - and no babbling about the referendum will alter the fact that a referendum now just before going ahead is the only way to ensure true democracy - but you have made quite clear that you have absolutely  no interest whatsoever in ensuring that the present will of the people is known so it can be met .

ynwa250505 posted:

Well we know what the majority want ...

We want to leave that corrupt, undemocratic, sclerotic, bullying (and if you insist, I can evidence all those adjectives) institution that only exists for the benefit of political elites in Brussels and Westminster with their snouts in the trough.
...

ynwa250505 posted:

I suggest you stop speculating - it isn’t adding anything constructive to our debate.

I suggest you take your own advice!

glasnaim posted:
Innocent Bystander posted:
ynwa250505 posted:

We’ve done the democracy thing and a majority of the largest electoral turnout EVER have spoken so why don’t you stop your interminable waffle about wanting another vote in the name of democracy ffs?

Why not be honest and just say you want to overturn the result of the previous referendum because you don’t like the result?

”...wisdom and democracy...” indeed! Sour grapes is more accurate!

 

Yes, of course I want the thing reversed. As for democracy, the whole point  is to find out what the majority want - and as has been pointed out by so many, not just by me, the original referendum was not undertaken with any real information, and with much false information. You are just afraid of the outcome if there was to be proper democracy and a referendum now, just before finalising the deed. Afraid you would not get whatever you perceive You would gain from it, and not wanting it put to the vote because in your heart of hearts you recognise that the view of the people is indeed different now from the time of the original referendum, so you are terrified that they may indeed decide to go for another referendum. That is, at least, the impression you give.

The above point is spot on. What kind of democracy is based on ignorance, lies and deceit.

Utter nonsense.

ynwa250505 posted:
glasnaim posted:
Innocent Bystander posted:
ynwa250505 posted:

We’ve done the democracy thing and a majority of the largest electoral turnout EVER have spoken so why don’t you stop your interminable waffle about wanting another vote in the name of democracy ffs?

Why not be honest and just say you want to overturn the result of the previous referendum because you don’t like the result?

”...wisdom and democracy...” indeed! Sour grapes is more accurate!

 

Yes, of course I want the thing reversed. As for democracy, the whole point  is to find out what the majority want - and as has been pointed out by so many, not just by me, the original referendum was not undertaken with any real information, and with much false information. You are just afraid of the outcome if there was to be proper democracy and a referendum now, just before finalising the deed. Afraid you would not get whatever you perceive You would gain from it, and not wanting it put to the vote because in your heart of hearts you recognise that the view of the people is indeed different now from the time of the original referendum, so you are terrified that they may indeed decide to go for another referendum. That is, at least, the impression you give.

The above point is spot on. What kind of democracy is based on ignorance, lies and deceit.

Utter nonsense.

Not as utter nonsense as dismissing with those words.

Innocent Bystander posted:
ynwa250505 posted:

Well we know what the majority want ...

We want to leave that corrupt, undemocratic, sclerotic, bullying (and if you insist, I can evidence all those adjectives) institution that only exists for the benefit of political elites in Brussels and Westminster with their snouts in the trough.

And if there is to be another referendum, then I say FFS BRING IT ON!!! Arouse the referendum-wanting rabble and get them to agitate for it!!!

And in the next referendum campaign, we will have the evidence of the intentions of the conniving, back-stabbing elites here and abroad who remain determined to frustrate the democratic opinion of the UK to consider.

This issue is never going to go away until we are free of the bullying shackles of the EU - who are determined to impose political union on the nations of Europe, controlled from Brussels, with national governments subordinated to the will of Brussels. You think that will work? You want to be controlled by an unelected faceless bureaucracy from another country? We don’t - but hey, you go for it ...

We absolutely do NOT know what the majority want. Present tense.  All we do know is the outcome of the referendum 2½ years and an awful lot of mileage ago. Everything I have said stands - and no babbling about the referendum will alter the fact that a referendum now just before going ahead is the only way to ensure true democracy - but you have made quite clear that you have absolutely  no interest whatsoever in ensuring that the present will of the people is known so it can be met .

And if there is to be another referendum, then I say FFS BRING IT ON!!!

Innocent Bystander posted:
ynwa250505 posted:
glasnaim posted:
Innocent Bystander posted:
ynwa250505 posted:

We’ve done the democracy thing and a majority of the largest electoral turnout EVER have spoken so why don’t you stop your interminable waffle about wanting another vote in the name of democracy ffs?

Why not be honest and just say you want to overturn the result of the previous referendum because you don’t like the result?

”...wisdom and democracy...” indeed! Sour grapes is more accurate!

 

Yes, of course I want the thing reversed. As for democracy, the whole point  is to find out what the majority want - and as has been pointed out by so many, not just by me, the original referendum was not undertaken with any real information, and with much false information. You are just afraid of the outcome if there was to be proper democracy and a referendum now, just before finalising the deed. Afraid you would not get whatever you perceive You would gain from it, and not wanting it put to the vote because in your heart of hearts you recognise that the view of the people is indeed different now from the time of the original referendum, so you are terrified that they may indeed decide to go for another referendum. That is, at least, the impression you give.

The above point is spot on. What kind of democracy is based on ignorance, lies and deceit.

Utter nonsense.

Not as utter nonsense as dismissing with those words.

The words I use to dismiss arguments don’t matter one hoot - you all want to remain subjugated by the EU and there are no words that will change that.

 

Huge posted:
ynwa250505 posted:

Well we know what the majority want ...

We want to leave that corrupt, undemocratic, sclerotic, bullying (and if you insist, I can evidence all those adjectives) institution that only exists for the benefit of political elites in Brussels and Westminster with their snouts in the trough.
...

ynwa250505 posted:

I suggest you stop speculating - it isn’t adding anything constructive to our debate.

I suggest you take your own advice!

As though I need your advice ...

Huge posted:
ynwa250505 posted:

Well we know what the majority want ...

Indeed: a recent survey of >20,000 people indicated that a majority now support remaining in the EU.  In fact the majority for remain was by a larger percentage margin than that by which the [now out of date] original referendum indicated to leave.

Oh the polls! Yes of course! These are ones that all predicted a “remain” victory ...

ynwa250505 posted:
Huge posted:
ynwa250505 posted:

I suggest you stop speculating - it isn’t adding anything constructive to our debate.

I suggest you take your own advice!

As though I need your advice ...

If you can't take it yourself, don't dish it out to others!

ynwa250505 posted:
Innocent Bystander posted:
ynwa250505 posted:
glasnaim posted:
Innocent Bystander posted:
!

 

Yes, of course I want the thing reversed. As for democracy, the whole point  is to find out what the majority want - and as has been pointed out by so many, not just by me, the original referendum was not undertaken with any real information, and with much false information. You are just afraid of the outcome if there was to be proper democracy and a referendum now, just before finalising the deed. Afraid you would not get whatever you perceive You would gain from it, and not wanting it put to the vote because in your heart of hearts you recognise that the view of the people is indeed different now from the time of the original referendum, so you are terrified that they may indeed decide to go for another referendum. That is, at least, the impression you give.

The above point is spot on. What kind of democracy is based on ignorance, lies and deceit.

Utter nonsense.

Not as utter nonsense as dismissing with tho se words.

The words I use to dismiss arguments don’t matter one hoot - you all want to remain subjugated by the EU and there are no words that will change that.

 

You, or at least the persona you present on here as that is all we have to go on, have no interest in democracy, no concern for the risk to peace in Northern Ireland, no care for the negative effects Brexit with no deal will have on a very large number of people, and no answers to the problems you glibly dismiss.

I was about to say you’ve dug your hole so deep, there’s no getting out, however:

ynwa250505 posted:
And if there is to be another referendum, then I say FFS BRING IT ON!!!

  at last, other than the language you hint at, you have said the right thing.

ynwa250505 posted:
Huge posted:
ynwa250505 posted:

Well we know what the majority want ...

Indeed: a recent survey of >20,000 people indicated that a majority now support remaining in the EU.  In fact the majority for remain was by a larger percentage margin than that by which the [now out of date] original referendum indicated to leave.

Oh the polls! Yes of course! These are ones that all predicted a “remain” victory ...

No, not the same ones.

The pre-referendum polls surveyed around 1000 voters each, the latest survey was >20,000 people.
If you don't understand the statistical effect of this, then you don't have the competence to pass valid comment.
If you do understand the statistical effect of this, then you'll know why your comment above is irrelevant.

ynwa250505 posted:
naim_nymph posted:
Jonners posted:

We are not at the point where we're talking about leaving without a deal yet. This is just for transition period to be used as a basis on which to negotiate the final exit deal and a lot of folk are forgetting that. Why would a Peoples' Vote be needed for that when it's not a permanent arrangement?

Jonners, 

there is no need to cling to the reality-denial dreams of Mrs May and her despots diehards [ and deserters ] of Brexit. The unfolding deal [ or no deal ] is not what any of the UK people voted for in the 2016 referendum, and here in 2018 Mrs May's very dodgy deal will not gain enough votes in the HOC.

It's a dead duck from day one : (

From the start Brexit has been, and will always be based on a false prospectus. But all is not lost [ yet ] we still have time for a Peoples vote which will gain confirmation of the real will of the people, and which is highly likely to vote Remain within the EU.

Here is a very agreeable read, that puts the situation into an easy to understand context: 

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/...to-admit-that-truth/

This “very agreeable read” is of course nothing of the sort. It is a one-sided, utterly biased diatribe excoriating those voted to leave the EU. The article is one of the most disdainful of our electorate that I have read. Note that both the LSE and the LSE’s Brexit blog disown his views.

The author is an ex-employee of the EU and well known for his love of all things French and EU-related.

Here's another very truthful, factual, and agreeable read from, Fintan 

https://www.theguardian.com/po...antasy-fintan-otoole

Huge posted:
ynwa250505 posted:
Huge posted:
ynwa250505 posted:

I suggest you stop speculating - it isn’t adding anything constructive to our debate.

I suggest you take your own advice!

As though I need your advice ...

If you can't take it yourself, don't dish it out to others!

Ditto

ynwa250505 posted:
Huge posted:
ynwa250505 posted:
Huge posted:
ynwa250505 posted:

I suggest you stop speculating - it isn’t adding anything constructive to our debate.

I suggest you take your own advice!

As though I need your advice ...

If you can't take it yourself, don't dish it out to others!

Ditto

This is getting rather desperate...

naim_nymph posted:

Here's another very truthful, factual, and agreeable read from, Fintan 

https://www.theguardian.com/po...antasy-fintan-otoole

Debs, if you're looking for a robust argument for staying in the EU, may i respectfully suggest that you quote a more credible source than Fintan O'Toole?

Along with the likes of Blair's mate "Lord" Adonis and Loris Luyendijk he belongs to the demento wing of the Bremaniac faction, and is regularly trotted out - along with the aforementioned dotty duo - by the Graun as some sort of authority; but O'Toole is an Irish theatre critic masquerading as an intellectual and no more of an authority on these matters than you, I, my mum or the bloke in the betting shop. He does not live in the UK, nor has he ever done so, as far as I'm aware. He also dislikes the UK, and has a long record of trashing it - which is of course catnip to the Graun's self-loathing editorial team.

Just because you happen to agree with an argument, doesn't make it true or even credible. There are plenty of sound arguments for staying in the EU - and I say that as someone who voted to leave - but quoting O'Toole's swivel-eyed dribble isn't doing  the remain case any favours at all. It's like quoting the ramblings of Mogg or Farrago as a credible argument for Brexit.

I do find it amusing how often the Brexiteers immediately accuse anyone who suggests a peoples vote of ignoring the will of the people and secretly wanting to overturn the result of the 2016 referendum.  The history shows that the 'will of the people' changes: witness the different parties that it elects to power in general elections so the first part of the Brexiteers rebuttal is logically flawed.  However the second part 'you actually want to reverse the result of the referendum!' is, of course, a statement of the bleeding obvious!   Why did Farage, JR-M and all the other hard-line anti-EU politicians lobby so hard and for so long to get a referendum on EU membership if not because they hoped that people would vote to leave the EU?

In supporting calls for a people vote, while there are good democratic arguments to support it, I don't feel remotely sheepish in acknowledging that I am primarily motivated but the hope that another vote gives us a chance of reversing out of this madness.  It is now clearer than ever that the bold assertions of the benefits of leaving made by the Brexiteers at the time of the referendum and since were not and are still not supported by a shred of evidence, and is simply wishful thinking. Meanwhile the dis-benefits of leaving have been steadily accumulating and becoming clearer day by day since the referendum result.  The case for leaving in 2016 was weak and relied largely on playing to peoples emotion. The case today is very evidently very much weaker. I think that the majority of our politicians can see that. The challenge for them now is to act upon it.  

Kevin-W posted:
naim_nymph posted:

Here's another very truthful, factual, and agreeable read from, Fintan 

https://www.theguardian.com/po...antasy-fintan-otoole

Just because you happen to agree with an argument, doesn't make it true or even credible. There are plenty of sound arguments for staying in the EU - and I say that as someone who voted to leave - but quoting O'Toole's swivel-eyed dribble isn't doing  the remain case any favours at all. It's like quoting the ramblings of Mogg or Farrago as a credible argument for Brexit.

What! Bl**dy hell, Kevin. If they hear you say such things they'll accuse you of being one of the 'liberal elite'!

MDS posted:

I do find it amusing how often the Brexiteers immediately accuse anyone who suggests a peoples vote of ignoring the will of the people and secretly wanting to overturn the result of the 2016 referendum.  The history shows that the 'will of the people' changes: witness the different parties that it elects to power in general elections so the first part of the Brexiteers rebuttal is logically flawed.  However the second part 'you actually want to reverse the result of the referendum!' is, of course, a statement of the bleeding obvious!   Why did Farage, JR-M and all the other hard-line anti-EU politicians lobby so hard and for so long to get a referendum on EU membership if not because they hoped that people would vote to leave the EU?

In supporting calls for a people vote, while there are good democratic arguments to support it, I don't feel remotely sheepish in acknowledging that I am primarily motivated but the hope that another vote gives us a chance of reversing out of this madness.  It is now clearer than ever that the bold assertions of the benefits of leaving made by the Brexiteers at the time of the referendum and since were not and are still not supported by a shred of evidence, and is simply wishful thinking. Meanwhile the dis-benefits of leaving have been steadily accumulating and becoming clearer day by day since the referendum result.  The case for leaving in 2016 was weak and relied largely on playing to peoples emotion. The case today is very evidently very much weaker. I think that the majority of our politicians can see that. The challenge for them now is to act upon it.  

The 'will of the people' argument is a spurious one in relation to the 2016 and always has.

You see, that referendum did not determine the will of the people.  It did not do that because, with a 48/52 result there was no consensus, and that is exactly the problem and is why we are in the mess we are in.  Just to be clear: there was no consensus.

I have always been opposed to a second referendum because I fear that it could exacerbate the divisions within our society.  However, with developments over the past few days, there is a sense of urgency and it is only now we are now having a proper debate about what Brexit actually means and, I have to say, previous positions are being exposed for what they are.  If we have a second referendum, then, if the original result was valid, then a new referendum will return the same result.  If not, then it will be overturned.

It is these changes in circumstances that have convinced me now, more than ever, that a second referendum is necessary.  In my opinion, there are only two events that can break this logjam -

  1. a second referendum that arrives at a consensus that settles the argument once and for all, or,
  2. we crash out without a deal which, in essence will almost certainly be a catastrophic event that forces people to confront the issues.

I think these two possible events shows what a bad place we are in.

David

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