Brexit - the final throes....

The polarity of the 'debate' here is one of the reasons I dread another referendum.

I cannot believe the national debate would be other than desperately destructive if we did it all again

I would also challenge the argument that because some Opinion Polls now show people changing their mind (maybe) we have to have another vote. This is not how democracy works; if a Party/President gets in they have a term of office; changing opinions immediate after elections are pretty much standard. Ask Macron! the Brexit vote was never designed to be other than a single process.

I am solidly Remain but I have always respected the result. Even if it was decided by a single vote in my mind it would have been valid

Bruce

Hello Gary,

You posted:

Ray, so Europe, Scotland and Labour politics don’t meet your high standards, yet the right wing Conservatives and the likes of Boris and Nigel do. 

You will be no doubt pleased to know that I am no fan of BJ or Farage.  I am also acutely aware of the Conservatives track record on standards of behaviour (Jonathon Aitkin's trusty shield of truth and sword of justice etc) and I recognise flaws in the UKs electoral and parliamentary system but, and this is a big Angela Merkel sized but, I can't come up with anything better and its much more transparent and accountable than the EU's.

I am sure the Scottish Parliament functions okay and represents the ideas and social values of those north of the border well.

Ray

 

 

Bruce, I generally agree and that’s the reason I don’t support a second referendum. I’d love it for Brexit to be called off, but that’s unlikely to happen. With UKIP courting fascists in Yaxley-Lennon, one can easily see how things could quickly get out of control. Even on here, where we hopefully are united in our love of music, and where one would hope we were all reasonable people, we have Drewy offering to send remainers new dummies. If we cannot act like adults and engage in civilised debate, how can we expect a second referendum to be conducted in a respectful way. The leavers would be even more incensed than last time. There have been riots in France over tax; what would happen here? 

What still gets me is that we didn’t need the referendum in the first place. People didn’t vote to leave the EU, it was to kick the government in the teeth for not paying them enough attention in the first place. That’s why it was the poorer areas that voted leave, because they have suffered years of underinvestment while communities struggled. And despite that kicking, the government still doesn’t take note. The government have simply shifted the blame from themselves to the ‘unelected bureaucrats’ in Brussels. Of course, people are now convinced that it’s all the EU’s fault. What will happen when/if we leave and things don’t get better? Who will then get the blame?

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

The polarity of the 'debate' here is one of the reasons I dread another referendum.

I cannot believe the national debate would be other than desperately destructive if we did it all again

I would also challenge the argument that because some Opinion Polls now show people changing their mind (maybe) we have to have another vote. This is not how democracy works; if a Party/President gets in they have a term of office; changing opinions immediate after elections are pretty much standard. Ask Macron! the Brexit vote was never designed to be other than a single process.

I am solidly Remain but I have always respected the result. Even if it was decided by a single vote in my mind it would have been valid

Bruce

My own view is not based on opinion polls, but on the complete absence of any idea of what Brexit meant in practice, with an awful lot of, at best, misinformation, and I know for a fact that some people voted ‘leave’ not through any desire for that result, and believing there was no risk of it swinging to leave,  but simply to make it a closer finish to reduce Cameron’s cockiness - just the proportion of those is unknown. With this as a backdrop I believe it is fundamentally unsafe to take such a huge and damaging step without checking with the People that that is what they really want, because realistically if everyone had the knowledge that they have today at the time of the referendum they may very well have voted differently - and if the benefits of leaving, whatever they may be, are strong, the previous result could be confirmed - and if so, not a peep from me against it.

A confirmatory referndum. 

I support a second referendum for one big simple reason - if the people's representatives (Parliament) reject the withdrawal agreement and that agreement cannot be amended then the decision must come back to the people. The 51.9% of people that voted leave are still entitled to vote the same way again, no-one is taking anyone's vote or opinion away.

It would be undemocratic for any Government to stop Brexit without a second referendum. It would be entirely democratic for a second referendum to either verify our withdrawal, now that we know the exact terms, or allow the UK to remain.

I think is utterly disgraceful and dangerous hearing Brexiteers warning of some sort of violent uprising if there is a second referendum. We are a civilised people and civilised nation and we should respect each others opinion and voting however we disagree.

I think a second referendum, whichever way it went, would end the debate once and for all.

 

...and the reason Parliament is likely to reject the withdrawal agreement is because it threatens the sovereignty of the UK. My opinion is that if the withdrawal agreement or this form of Brexit gets through Parliament then the UK will cease to exist as both N. Ireland and Scotland will eventually break free and join the EU.

Nicola Sturgeon is standing quietly in the wings rubbing her hands together waiting for Brexit to happen.

Halloween Man posted:

I support a second referendum for one big simple reason - if the people's representatives (Parliament) reject the withdrawal agreement and that agreement cannot be amended then the decision must come back to the people. The 51.9% of people that voted leave are still entitled to vote the same way again, no-one is taking anyone's vote or opinion away.

It would be undemocratic for any Government to stop Brexit without a second referendum. It would be entirely democratic for a second referendum to either verify our withdrawal, now that we know the exact terms, or allow the UK to remain.

I think is utterly disgraceful and dangerous hearing Brexiteers warning of some sort of violent uprising if there is a second referendum. We are a civilised people and civilised nation and we should respect each others opinion and voting however we disagree.

I think a second referendum, whichever way it went, would end the debate once and for all.

 

Very well said.

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

I note that Parliament voted for the Referendum, it also voted for Article 50.

So Parliament should sort the consequences.

Bruce

 

You cannot expect Parliament to agree a deal that threatens the sovereignty of the UK regardless of consequences, that is not what Parliament or people voted for so that decision must go back to the people.

All we need is to agree permanent membership of the and customs union and single market and the Irish Border issue goes away. Parliament can do that with an amendment and then strike agreement its the EU, who won’t say no. Brexit sorted, economy protected, no referendum. Job done. Move on. 

You could but then you'd be better off staying in the EU and be a rule maker, and not a rule taker. It wouldn't really leave the EU, we'd still be bound by their rules and regulations on free movement of goods, capital, services, and labour and have no say on any of it. Not an option really given people voted to leave.

The quickest option is a hard Brexit - March 2019. Next quickest option is second referendum - 6 months.

The slowest option is a negotiated trade deal - at least another 2 years!

thebigfredc posted:

Fatcat posted

I was having a conversation with one of your fellow brexiteers today, he’s not very happy with May’s deal. Apparently he’s convinced immigration from the EU will not be controlled if it is implemented. Being a racist (and proud of it) this is a deal breaker for him. He doesn’t want any foreigners to be allowed into the UK, no matter how skilled they are or how desperately they are needed. His solution to the perceived problem is ‘ship em all back’.

I am sorry that you met Alf Garnett today but I have to ask why are you engaging with the wretched creature? Is it to confirm your world view that Brexiteers are racists? If so and for clarity purposes let me tell you straight that I am NOT a racist and neither are the people I know who voted Leave.

Obviously, I don't know who you associate with in your everyday life but if you keep looking in the gutter you are likely to find a few turds.

Ray

 

Well. I actually work with the bloke you describe as Alf Garnett, so, I’ve no choice but to associate with him.

I had previously thought, you lived on the set of the vicar of Dibley or brideshead revisited, but due to the tone of your post above, I’ve change my mind. More like playing the lead in ‘keeping up appearances’.

I doubt anybody would take seriously the views on racism of anybody who claims never to have met a racist. A little tip for you, not all racist are the same, some are outwardly racist and proud of it, at the other end other scale some claim not to be racist.

However, most people are quite capable of identifying racists from their actions or words. (verbal or written)

 

Still waiting for the addresses. I’m off to Mothercare in a bit, need to know how many dummies I need to pick up. Need to get them in the post before the Christmas rush. 

Seriously though guys, this is a hifi forum where we are all supposed to share a common interest.You need to calm down a bit. And no I’m not going to feed your appetites by trying to explain why I voted for Brexit, it won’t achieve anything here. 

I really wish Richard would pull this thread, I know I don’t have to read it but it is causing bad feeling  on the forum. 

 

hungryhalibut posted:

All we need is to agree permanent membership of the and customs union and single market and the Irish Border issue goes away. Parliament can do that with an amendment and then strike agreement its the EU, who won’t say no. Brexit sorted, economy protected, no referendum. Job done. Move on. 

The only problem with that is we give up any influence (by right) over the future direction of the EU, yet are bound by the rules of the SM/CU.

So we stagger on for a few more years until we get another bunch of charlatans pushing for their own advantage.

We need to lance the boil and confirm in or out.  Above probably is just a waiting room to a later exit.

Drewy posted:

Still waiting for the addresses. I’m off to Mothercare in a bit, need to know how many dummies I need to pick up. Need to get them in the post before the Christmas rush. 

Seriously though guys, this is a hifi forum where we are all supposed to share a common interest.You need to calm down a bit. And no I’m not going to feed your appetites by trying to explain why I voted for Brexit, it won’t achieve anything here. 

I really wish Richard would pull this thread, I know I don’t have to read it but it is causing bad feeling  on the forum. 

 

Come on Drewy, your suggestion that I need a dummy is hardly fostering good feeling, is it? Why not make your arguments in a respectful way, as I’m sure you would if you were here with me now? 

Richard should not pull the thread, rather people should show mutual respect. We can surely disagree without descending into silly name calling and general childishness. 

 

Halloween Man posted:

You could but then you'd be better off staying in the EU and be a rule maker, and not a rule taker. It wouldn't really leave the EU, we'd still be bound by their rules and regulations on free movement of goods, capital, services, and labour and have no say on any of it. Not an option really given people voted to leave.

The quickest option is a hard Brexit - March 2019. Next quickest option is second referendum - 6 months.

The slowest option is a negotiated trade deal - at least another 2 years!

The quickest exit is also the most damaging economically, and although the exit is quick, trying to renegotiate the 70 or so trade deals that we would then have lost is going to be even slower (probably at least 5 to 10 years and maybe even longer).

Another referendum could be organised and run in less than three months; it really doesn't need six months (a general election only takes six weeks to organise and complete).

Halloween Man posted:

...and the reason Parliament is likely to reject the withdrawal agreement is because it threatens the sovereignty of the UK. My opinion is that if the withdrawal agreement or this form of Brexit gets through Parliament then the UK will cease to exist as both N. Ireland and Scotland will eventually break free and join the EU.

Nicola Sturgeon is standing quietly in the wings rubbing her hands together waiting for Brexit to happen.

I'm cool with that - if Scotland wants to go its own way - its important the people there are happy and content with their lot.

I don't think NI is very far down the 'join up with Eire road' though.

Ray

Anyone wholly neutral reading this thread would be astounded -

Astounded st the inability of those supporting Brexit to cite any benefits other than freedom for which they can’t offer any indication of what Britain is not free to do that it would.

Astounded, no shocked, at the racism and xenophobia Brexit has uncovered.

And astounded at the willingness to cause harm to a large number of people on the strength of a referendum conducted with so much lies and missing information, without a double-check with the people when the very different reality is known.

To those who dismiss the NI issue as irrelevant, a minor point or a minor inconvenience I have two questions...

How would you like to have to keep a mirror on a stick in your car so that before driving off you can check underneath to look for pipe bombs?

How would you feel about being on a terrorist's target list, merely because of your job?
(From personal experience I can tell you it's not a pleasant feeling.)

thebigfredc posted:

Glasnaim posted

@thebigfredc......From your answer I can see the set up in Europe might be a wee bit too complicated for you.

Its not just me who struggles with this hence the much lower turnout in the UK for European elections and without resorting to Google can you name your MEP, which collaboration they belong to in the EU Parliment, or even know the name your constituency?

I can see that your clearly irritated by Westminster and the power it has over Scotland despite the concessions Phoney Blair made to the  Scottish Nationalists in setting up your albeit limited Parliment. The sense of injustice and misrepresentation you feel at being pushed about by a distant institution of power is the same way that Brexiteers south of the border feel about the EU establishment.

Ray

MEP's are elected on proportional representation, Scotland has 6 out of 73 UK MEP's. I do not have a constituency as Scotland is treated as one area, representation is split proportionally across the various parties with SNP have the most MEP's. No I can't name them all, I could if I googled it, perhaps 3 of them off the top of my head but again I can't name all the Scottish MP's in west minster.

My irritation regarding west minster is nothing to do with the power it has over Scotland, this is dwindling day by day, but that it is populated by a self serving bunch of liars and incompetents who are stumbling towards the brink of ruining the country.

I sense from your responses you are a little englander tory and as such perhaps you should be more grateful to the Scots as without Scottish votes Labour will never return to power. Yes the Scottish people voted overwhelmingly to stay in Europe and yes we have no love for west minster, the current malaise underlines the reasons why, but I suspect soon we will have the opportunity to put this right by further referendum.

 

I hope so too Glasnaim. I love Scotland and had family in Peterhead for a long time, all dead now I am afraid.

I don't give a flying about the mathematical advantage it would give to the Conservatives; my reasons are both more noble and more selfish than that. In short, I hate to be thought of as anybody's jailer. Scotland has a long and proud history, some fantastic scenery and my favourite national anthem. If the yoke of Westminster is too much for them then throw it off and take responsibility for your own destiny.

That's exactly how I feel towards the EU.

Ray

Huge posted:

To those who dismiss the NI issue as irrelevant, a minor point or a minor inconvenience I have two questions...

How would you like to have to keep a mirror on a stick in your car so that before driving off you can check underneath to look for pipe bombs?

How would you feel about being on a terrorist's target list, merely because of your job?
(From personal experience I can tell you it's not a pleasant feeling.)

Huge,

I hope this is a general point rather than being aimed at me. I haven't dismissed the NI issue and indeed I can't see how anybody has dismissed the NI issue in recent posts.

Ray

Hi Ray,

No, it's not directed at you.

You've provided a well reasoned explanation as to why you wish to leave, and to leave despite knowing that it won't be at all easy or economically advantageous.  You've also acknowledged that there's good rational argument the other way as well.

From this I can fully respect your position (even if I personally believe it to be the wrong one!  ).

Huge posted:

Perhaps it's the other way round: England is under the yoke of the descendants of a Scottish Monarchy!    

Thomas Arne had it covered when he composed the UK national anthem,  not sure about it being the 'uk' national anthem,  seems to have more than a hint of disunited.   

Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.

There's also Flanders & Swan - A song of Patriotic Prejudice...

The Scotsman is mean, as we're all well aware
And bony and blotchy and covered with hair
He eats salty porridge, he works all the day
And he hasn't got bishops to show him the way!

The English, the English, the English are best
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest

When I was a lot younger I was dating a girl , who's father used the pseudonym Thurso Berwick, he wrote this as a verse in one of his songs ; 

Noo Scotland hasnae got a King.

And she hasnae got a Queen

How can ye hae the Second Liz

When the First yin's never been.

Given the history between the two nations it's perhaps surprising the union has lasted so long.

 

 

ynwa250505 posted:

I really wish Richard would pull this thread, I know I don’t have to read it but it is causing bad feeling  on the forum.

Agreed - in spades. We could just follow the news instead ...

Well, I have done, on a number of occasions, where a moderators steadying hand has been needed.  

As I've said before, I'm always wary of discussions in here about politics.  They always turn out to be divisive, and I feel that this a much better place where our common interests unite us.

So all I can ask of the members is to try to be civil to one another and try to remember what brought us all here to the forum in the first place.

Richard Dane posted:
ynwa250505 posted:

I really wish Richard would pull this thread, I know I don’t have to read it but it is causing bad feeling  on the forum.

Agreed - in spades. We could just follow the news instead ...

Well, I have done, on a number of occasions, where a moderators steadying hand has been needed.  

As I've said before, I'm always wary of discussions in here about politics.  They always turn out to be divisive, and I feel that this a much better place where our common interests unite us.

So all I can ask of the members is to try to be civil to one another and try to remember what brought us all here to the forum in the first place.

Willdo. Thanks.

Personally my instinct is if we are to address the many fundamental challenges we face in the world starting with climate and environmental issues, we are going to have to be a lot more collaborative and coordinated internationally, for me being part of the EU is a progressive and optimistic development that we should embrace. I dislike nationalism and the breakup of existing treaties of likeminded peoples such as we have in the UK [speaking as a Scot who wishes for Scotland to stay in the UK] and think our inclusion in the EU has for the most part been beneficial for the UK and would continue to be should we stay within it.

One of the problems we seem to have with this subject, perhaps due to it's complexity, is a lot of people have made their choice based on their gut instinct [as I have] and I think this is why it's so difficult to get specific answers pinned down beyond the well established sweeping criticisms of faceless unelected bureaucrats, for a lot of people it simply doesn't feel right, they feel too far removed from some of the decision making  governing parts of their lives and there is truth to this, it kind of goes hand in hand with larger blocks of people under one administration, your vote becomes diluted. The disaffection with the EU is not dissimilar to the opposition of Federal government in the States

Richard Dane posted:
ynwa250505 posted:

I really wish Richard would pull this thread, I know I don’t have to read it but it is causing bad feeling  on the forum.

Agreed - in spades. We could just follow the news instead ...

Well, I have done, on a number of occasions, where a moderators steadying hand has been needed.  

As I've said before, I'm always wary of discussions in here about politics.  They always turn out to be divisive, and I feel that this a much better place where our common interests unite us.

So all I can ask of the members is to try to be civil to one another and try to remember what brought us all here to the forum in the first place.

Thank you Richard. There have been a number of requests to pull the thread previously, and I for one am grateful that you have refrained from doing so. The problem with "just following the news" as proposed above is that Brexit is without question the most divisive subject this country has faced (at least in my lifetime), and has the potential to profoundly affect all of us living in the UK, and indeed beyond. Whatever the outcome, there has to be a way to heal the divisions in the future, if we are regain any sense of unity as a nation, and talking to each other and honouring our different perspectives (even if that resolves into the resolution to agree to disagree) is the only way forward. Of course, we could all go to our respective social media or newspaper comment section silos, but there is an authenticity about this forum because there are genuine shades of grey here, and it is mercifully bot free. Agree though we may need another thread as the "dying throes" may turn out to be considerably longer than anticipated, or indeed Brexit may not happen at all.  

Duncan Mann posted:
Richard Dane posted:
ynwa250505 posted:

I really wish Richard would pull this thread, I know I don’t have to read it but it is causing bad feeling  on the forum.

Agreed - in spades. We could just follow the news instead ...

Well, I have done, on a number of occasions, where a moderators steadying hand has been needed.  

As I've said before, I'm always wary of discussions in here about politics.  They always turn out to be divisive, and I feel that this a much better place where our common interests unite us.

So all I can ask of the members is to try to be civil to one another and try to remember what brought us all here to the forum in the first place.

Thank you Richard. There have been a number of requests to pull the thread previously, and I for one am grateful that you have refrained from doing so. The problem with "just following the news" as proposed above is that Brexit is without question the most divisive subject this country has faced (at least in my lifetime), and has the potential to profoundly affect all of us living in the UK, and indeed beyond. Whatever the outcome, there has to be a way to heal the divisions in the future, if we are regain any sense of unity as a nation, and talking to each other and honouring our different perspectives (even if that resolves into the resolution to agree to disagree) is the only way forward. Of course, we could all go to our respective social media or newspaper comment section silos, but there is an authenticity about this forum because there are genuine shades of grey here, and it is mercifully bot free. Agree though we may need another thread as the "dying throes" may turn out to be considerably longer than anticipated, or indeed Brexit may not happen at all.  

You're quite right about healing the divisions, but this is not the kind of ordinary political decision that may be challenged in 5 years' time (or less).

It's for a long, long time - and it's a yes/no choice, there's little room for shades of grey here. Unfortunately.

My dummy comments are not serious. I don’t really want names and addresses and I haven’t been to Mothercare for many years and have no intention of going for many years yet. Obviously this forum is no place for a little humour and banter which I often turn to I’m my life when things aren’t going the way I like. It’s what I thought was part of being British but it seems most of us are now European. 

Anyway i’ll Leave you all to analyse the paragraph above and put your own twist on it. Looking forward to the results

Drewy posted:

My dummy comments are not serious. I don’t really want names and addresses and I haven’t been to Mothercare for many years and have no intention of going for many years yet. Obviously this forum is no place for a little humour and banter which I often turn to I’m my life when things aren’t going the way I like. It’s what I thought was part of being British but it seems most of us are now European. 

Anyway i’ll Leave you all to analyse the paragraph above and put your own twist on it. Looking forward to the results

We're all European here in the British Isles, and always will be.

Duncan Mann posted:

Thank you Richard. There have been a number of requests to pull the thread previously, and I for one am grateful that you have refrained from doing so. The problem with "just following the news" as proposed above is that Brexit is without question the most divisive subject this country has faced (at least in my lifetime), and has the potential to profoundly affect all of us living in the UK, and indeed beyond. Whatever the outcome, there has to be a way to heal the divisions in the future, if we are regain any sense of unity as a nation, and talking to each other and honouring our different perspectives (even if that resolves into the resolution to agree to disagree) is the only way forward. Of course, we could all go to our respective social media or newspaper comment section silos, but there is an authenticity about this forum because there are genuine shades of grey here, and it is mercifully bot free. Agree though we may need another thread as the "dying throes" may turn out to be considerably longer than anticipated, or indeed Brexit may not happen at all.  

Sadly whatever happens; brexit, remain, Norway+ etc I don't expect divisions to be healed.  I won't be able to forgive (what I see) as the lies and corruption of the leave campaigns, and I'm sure others won't be able to forgive the ongoing remain campaign for everything they've done.

So one way or another there's going to be pain for years.  Maybe a bit like the miners strike fall out in the 80s.

Oh Steven, the reality is the country has had ambivalent feelings towards the EU for many years. The UK political scene has been separated by Europhobes and Europhiles since the EEC vote of the 70s from both sides of British politics. Tony Benn no less was a fierce critic of its machinations.

It was Cameron's aim to settle the matter once and for all which spectacularly back-fired. To most Leavers the EU is just an extra layer of unwanted and unmerited bureaucracy. Look at the folly of some of their projects such as the funding of the Hungarian leaders football stadium and railway line homage to himself.

And please stop perpetuating the myth of a unified and content EU. The Dutch dislike and distrust the Germans. Similarly the Portuguese and Spain which is easily eclipsed by the animosity between the adjacent islands of Corsica and Sardinia. 

Ray

 

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