Brexit - the final throes....

tonym posted:
Drewy posted:

My dummy comments are not serious. I don’t really want names and addresses and I haven’t been to Mothercare for many years and have no intention of going for many years yet. Obviously this forum is no place for a little humour and banter which I often turn to I’m my life when things aren’t going the way I like. It’s what I thought was part of being British but it seems most of us are now European. 

Anyway i’ll Leave you all to analyse the paragraph above and put your own twist on it. Looking forward to the results

We're all European here in the British Isles, and always will be.

With respect Tony, I for one, certainly don’t regard myself as “European” - I am British and I am proud to have been born here. I revel in the history, culture and achievements of our peoples.

Furthermore, I have lived in France and Italy and I can assure you that none of my neighbours regarded themselves as “European” - they were French and Italian.

Finally, a short review of recent European history (circa 1500 onwards) should put paid to the idea that we in the British Isles are “European”.

rgds

thebigfredc posted:

Oh Steven, the reality is the country has had ambivalent feelings towards the EU for many years. The UK political scene has been separated by Europhobes and Europhiles since the EEC vote of the 70s from both sides of British politics. Tony Benn no less was a fierce critic of its machinations.

It was Cameron's aim to settle the matter once and for all which spectacularly back-fired. To most Leavers the EU is just an extra layer of unwanted and unmerited bureaucracy. Look at the folly of some of their projects such as the funding of the Hungarian leaders football stadium and railway line homage to himself.

And please stop perpetuating the myth of a unified and content EU. The Dutch dislike and distrust the Germans. Similarly the Portuguese and Spain which is easily eclipsed by the animosity between the adjacent islands of Corsica and Sardinia. 

Ray

 

Animosity between nations/provinces/cultures is nothing new - you don't have to go as far as Corsica and Sardinia. Anybody who thinks that the European Union will put an end to local conflicts is simply dreaming. Flemish-speaking Belgians will distrust French-speaking Belgians (and vice-versa- - Europe or no Europe. Do you think Yorkshire people hold Southerners in great esteem? Yet they are citizens of the same nation.

Nobody's perpetuating the myth of a unified and content Europe...

ynwa250505 posted:
tonym posted:
Drewy posted:

My dummy comments are not serious. I don’t really want names and addresses and I haven’t been to Mothercare for many years and have no intention of going for many years yet. Obviously this forum is no place for a little humour and banter which I often turn to I’m my life when things aren’t going the way I like. It’s what I thought was part of being British but it seems most of us are now European. 

Anyway i’ll Leave you all to analyse the paragraph above and put your own twist on it. Looking forward to the results

We're all European here in the British Isles, and always will be.

With respect Tony, I for one, certainly don’t regard myself as “European” - I am British and I am proud to have been born here. I revel in the history, culture and achievements of our peoples.

Furthermore, I have lived in France and Italy and I can assure you that none of my neighbours regarded themselves as “European” - they were French and Italian.

Finally, a short review of recent European history (circa 1500 onwards) should put paid to the idea that we in the British Isles are “European”.

rgds

I guess geography isn't your strong subject.

thebigfredc posted:

Oh Steven, the reality is the country has had ambivalent feelings towards the EU for many years. The UK political scene has been separated by Europhobes and Europhiles since the EEC vote of the 70s from both sides of British politics. Tony Benn no less was a fierce critic of its machinations.

It was Cameron's aim to settle the matter once and for all which spectacularly back-fired. To most Leavers the EU is just an extra layer of unwanted and unmerited bureaucracy. Look at the folly of some of their projects such as the funding of the Hungarian leaders football stadium and railway line homage to himself.

And please stop perpetuating the myth of a unified and content EU. The Dutch dislike and distrust the Germans. Similarly the Portuguese and Spain which is easily eclipsed by the animosity between the adjacent islands of Corsica and Sardinia. 

Ray

 

And the French and Italian peoples, in general, totally despise the Germans.

Whereas the Greeks have a visceral hatred of Germany, with (imho) good reason.

 

So, following on from the above, let me ask a question (for the first time) of the Remainers;

I don’t think it can be denied that Political Union is the objective of the EU’s political classes, (reference Monnet, Delors, Merkel, Juncker et al). Do you think this objective is achievable?

thebigfredc posted:

Oh Steven, the reality is the country has had ambivalent feelings towards the EU for many years. The UK political scene has been separated by Europhobes and Europhiles since the EEC vote of the 70s from both sides of British politics. Tony Benn no less was a fierce critic of its machinations.

It was Cameron's aim to settle the matter once and for all which spectacularly back-fired. To most Leavers the EU is just an extra layer of unwanted and unmerited bureaucracy. Look at the folly of some of their projects such as the funding of the Hungarian leaders football stadium and railway line homage to himself.

And please stop perpetuating the myth of a unified and content EU. The Dutch dislike and distrust the Germans. Similarly the Portuguese and Spain which is easily eclipsed by the animosity between the adjacent islands of Corsica and Sardinia. 

Ray

 

Firstly, if you insist on patronising me at least take the trouble to spell my name correctly, Roy.

Secondly, your point on ambivalence, while I agree has nothing to do with the point I made.

Finally, I've done nothing to perpetuate the myth; I agree there is petty animosity between nations everywhere; and on a micro level between villages FFS.

 

been watching the debate in the HoC this evening and witnessed Liam Fox challenging the shadow chancellor on implications of being member of the CU and the treaties underlining this. A bit embarrassing as JM failed to address challenge, oh dear... But perhaps I read too much into the event....

enjoy/ken

tonym posted:
ynwa250505 posted:
tonym posted:
Drewy posted:

My dummy comments are not serious. I don’t really want names and addresses and I haven’t been to Mothercare for many years and have no intention of going for many years yet. Obviously this forum is no place for a little humour and banter which I often turn to I’m my life when things aren’t going the way I like. It’s what I thought was part of being British but it seems most of us are now European. 

Anyway i’ll Leave you all to analyse the paragraph above and put your own twist on it. Looking forward to the results

We're all European here in the British Isles, and always will be.

With respect Tony, I for one, certainly don’t regard myself as “European” - I am British and I am proud to have been born here. I revel in the history, culture and achievements of our peoples.

Furthermore, I have lived in France and Italy and I can assure you that none of my neighbours regarded themselves as “European” - they were French and Italian.

Finally, a short review of recent European history (circa 1500 onwards) should put paid to the idea that we in the British Isles are “European”.

rgds

I guess geography isn't your strong subject.

I think you are deliberately missing my point. C’est la vie ...

ynwa250505 posted:
thebigfredc posted:

Oh Steven, the reality is the country has had ambivalent feelings towards the EU for many years. The UK political scene has been separated by Europhobes and Europhiles since the EEC vote of the 70s from both sides of British politics. Tony Benn no less was a fierce critic of its machinations.

It was Cameron's aim to settle the matter once and for all which spectacularly back-fired. To most Leavers the EU is just an extra layer of unwanted and unmerited bureaucracy. Look at the folly of some of their projects such as the funding of the Hungarian leaders football stadium and railway line homage to himself.

And please stop perpetuating the myth of a unified and content EU. The Dutch dislike and distrust the Germans. Similarly the Portuguese and Spain which is easily eclipsed by the animosity between the adjacent islands of Corsica and Sardinia. 

Ray

 

And the French and Italian peoples, in general, totally despise the Germans.

Whereas the Greeks have a visceral hatred of Germany, with (imho) good reason.

 

So, following on from the above, let me ask a question (for the first time) of the Remainers;

I don’t think it can be denied that Political Union is the objective of the EU’s political classes, (reference Monnet, Delors, Merkel, Juncker et al). Do you think this objective is achievable?

I'd say yes, but that doesn't mean the end of animosity between different parts of the EU. It would be too much to expect - man seems to have a yen for conflict - at least it won't be armed conflict.

And I'm sure the French don't despise the Germans - the older generations may still do (some of them), but the French seem to feel some kind of grudging admiration for a country that appears to get things right more often than they do in France - call it jealousy, a love/hate relationship if you wish.

glasnaim posted:

When I was a lot younger I was dating a girl , who's father used the pseudonym Thurso Berwick, he wrote this as a verse in one of his songs ; 

Noo Scotland hasnae got a King.

And she hasnae got a Queen

How can ye hae the Second Liz

When the First yin's never been.

Given the history between the two nations it's perhaps surprising the union has lasted so long.

 

 

Love Scotland and the Scottish, but when I hear such patriotic (and historically coloured) bull..... I turn to the fact that  basically IMHO, 99% of English don't give a damn about them. And if they want to break free from the UK, then fine. Bye bye.

Wugged Woy posted:
glasnaim posted:

When I was a lot younger I was dating a girl , who's father used the pseudonym Thurso Berwick, he wrote this as a verse in one of his songs ; 

Noo Scotland hasnae got a King.

And she hasnae got a Queen

How can ye hae the Second Liz

When the First yin's never been.

Given the history between the two nations it's perhaps surprising the union has lasted so long.

 

 

Love Scotland and the Scottish, but when I hear such patriotic (and historically coloured) bull..... I turn to the fact that  basically IMHO, 99% of English don't give a damn about them. And if they want to break free from the UK, then fine. Bye bye

 

 

It was just a recount of my youth nothing of historical fact or consequence. It was a light hearted observation that sovereignty in the great UK is not all that pure or noble, but I do suggest you read your history, I fear you have some gaps.

Stephen packer posted:
thebigfredc posted:

Oh Steven, the reality is the country has had ambivalent feelings towards the EU for many years. The UK political scene has been separated by Europhobes and Europhiles since the EEC vote of the 70s from both sides of British politics. Tony Benn no less was a fierce critic of its machinations.

It was Cameron's aim to settle the matter once and for all which spectacularly back-fired. To most Leavers the EU is just an extra layer of unwanted and unmerited bureaucracy. Look at the folly of some of their projects such as the funding of the Hungarian leaders football stadium and railway line homage to himself.

And please stop perpetuating the myth of a unified and content EU. The Dutch dislike and distrust the Germans. Similarly the Portuguese and Spain which is easily eclipsed by the animosity between the adjacent islands of Corsica and Sardinia. 

Ray

 

Firstly, if you insist on patronising me at least take the trouble to spell my name correctly, Roy.

Secondly, your point on ambivalence, while I agree has nothing to do with the point I made.

Finally, I've done nothing to perpetuate the myth; I agree there is petty animosity between nations everywhere; and on a micro level between villages FFS.

 

Sorry Stephen.,

I was using an iPhone without my glasses and bloody predictive text.

Jay

On ITV News at 10 this eve, someone talking about a second referendum said it would take 5 months to set up - a significant part being because, she said, we need to have time for the campaigns.

I do not understand why any campaigning is needed, on any side of the argument? Surely given continuous media coverage - with opinions from all angles - over the past couple of years, surely nothing more is needed, instead if the deal is still under consideration they could simply publish a bullet-point summary of it (of course available in full for anyone wanting to study) , and define what the other option or options are.

Wugged Woy posted:
glasnaim posted:

When I was a lot younger I was dating a girl , who's father used the pseudonym Thurso Berwick, he wrote this as a verse in one of his songs ; 

Noo Scotland hasnae got a King.

And she hasnae got a Queen

How can ye hae the Second Liz

When the First yin's never been.

Given the history between the two nations it's perhaps surprising the union has lasted so long.

 

 

Love Scotland and the Scottish, but when I hear such patriotic (and historically coloured) bull..... I turn to the fact that  basically IMHO, 99% of English don't give a damn about them. And if they want to break free from the UK, then fine. Bye bye.

"Love Scotland and the Scottish, BUT" …   - really?

Sounds so very like the posts we see every now and again that begin "I am not a racist, but ..."

ynwa250505 posted:
thebigfredc posted:

Oh Steven, the reality is the country has had ambivalent feelings towards the EU for many years. The UK political scene has been separated by Europhobes and Europhiles since the EEC vote of the 70s from both sides of British politics. Tony Benn no less was a fierce critic of its machinations.

It was Cameron's aim to settle the matter once and for all which spectacularly back-fired. To most Leavers the EU is just an extra layer of unwanted and unmerited bureaucracy. Look at the folly of some of their projects such as the funding of the Hungarian leaders football stadium and railway line homage to himself.

And please stop perpetuating the myth of a unified and content EU. The Dutch dislike and distrust the Germans. Similarly the Portuguese and Spain which is easily eclipsed by the animosity between the adjacent islands of Corsica and Sardinia. 

Ray

 

And the French and Italian peoples, in general, totally despise the Germans.

Whereas the Greeks have a visceral hatred of Germany, with (imho) good reason.

 

So, following on from the above, let me ask a question (for the first time) of the Remainers;

I don’t think it can be denied that Political Union is the objective of the EU’s political classes, (reference Monnet, Delors, Merkel, Juncker et al). Do you think this objective is achievable?

But that is a.part of the EU, to learn how to discuss and compromise. That is where all this ”peace-project” talk comes in. This is probably hard to beleive but in central europe they are quite proud of this. I have been to a number of conferences/events on technology, arts and stuff and coming from a nordic country that entered the EU late it was apparent how proud they were of these projects spanning different countries.

There are diffs between countries (less so between the people living in those countries) but it is not a big thing. The British currently have no clue where their country will be in 6 months despite having kind of a government and their media being full of poliitical talk. Here in Sweden we have no government since three months and no one really care that much - the country is running on fine anyway.

kuma posted:

I'm surprised that there is a shortage of labour in the UK without EU immigrants. Economy must have been very good.

So what do EU lose by UK leaving? 

Our fantastic weather, the Rover 800 fastback and the best source of new music in the world (apart from the US maybe).

After we leave, the Europeans are going to have to listen to last years Eurovision segweyed with Joe Le Taxi and the Cheeky Girls on a continuous loop. They will be begging for us to come back in.

Ray

Stephen packer posted:
Huge posted:

"When you've opened a can of worms, the only way to re-can the worms is to use a bigger can."

So it seems we need to expand the EU, not chop bits out of it!

QED   

Well, Thatcher was quite keen on expanding the EU...

Oh Stephanie, you very well know she was referring to TRADE and removing restrictions, such as tariffs, to TRADE between countries. She acquiesced to the 1986 European Act in order to encourage TRADE.

Her reservations to political union are well documented and ultimately led to her being ousted from PM.

With hindsight and given the way the EU has developed since and given its current trajectory, she was RIGHT, she was so RIGHT and she was bloody RIGHT again.

May

 

Hmack posted:
Wugged Woy posted:
glasnaim posted:

When I was a lot younger I was dating a girl , who's father used the pseudonym Thurso Berwick, he wrote this as a verse in one of his songs ; 

Noo Scotland hasnae got a King.

And she hasnae got a Queen

How can ye hae the Second Liz

When the First yin's never been.

Given the history between the two nations it's perhaps surprising the union has lasted so long.

 

 

Love Scotland and the Scottish, but when I hear such patriotic (and historically coloured) bull..... I turn to the fact that  basically IMHO, 99% of English don't give a damn about them. And if they want to break free from the UK, then fine. Bye bye.

"Love Scotland and the Scottish, BUT" …   - really?

Sounds so very like the posts we see every now and again that begin "I am not a racist, but ..."

WUGGED WOY'S post seems fair enough to me.

There are many Scotts who despise the English and hugely resent Westminster (see Glasnaim's posts) so why shouldn't they be allowed to toodle off into the sunset to live the lives they want and desire. 

And as his post points out, a good number of us south of the border don't really care although there is one notable exception who is ironically the subject of the poem - the Queen - who ripped call me Dave a new one over letting them have a devolution referendum.

Roy

kuma posted:

I'm surprised that there is a shortage of labour in the UK without EU immigrants. Economy must have been very good.

So what do EU lose by UK leaving? 

After a few years everything will start to bounce back. The brits will get used to do a lot of paperwork in german with copies in french and danish to haggle with europe and we will again be graced with the like likes of Vikki, Rikki and Daz Sampson in the eurovision.

 

I've just heard the PM's answerphone greeting, asking me to leave my vote of no confidence after the beep.....on a trail for R4's Dead Ringers, tonight at 6.30 and then tomorrow lunchtime.

Possibly of interest to those contributors here who have managed to retain a sense of humour more than two years in

Innocent Bystander posted:

On ITV News at 10 this eve, someone talking about a second referendum said it would take 5 months to set up - a significant part being because, she said, we need to have time for the campaigns.

I do not understand why any campaigning is needed, on any side of the argument? Surely given continuous media coverage - with opinions from all angles - over the past couple of years, surely nothing more is needed, instead if the deal is still under consideration they could simply publish a bullet-point summary of it (of course available in full for anyone wanting to study) , and define what the other option or options are.

I think it is the Electoral Commission that requires that sort of period to set-up another referendum.  I agree there wouldn't be much of a need for campaigning this time round but I think we would see it anyway.

Picking up Ken C's earlier point about the debate going on in the HoC currently, I too have been dipping in and out of the Parliament TV channel.  On the whole I've been pleasantly surprised at the quality of the speeches and behaviour of the MPs. More respectful and focussed on detailed arguments, rather than the mudsling I was expecting. The other trend I've noticed is it looks fairly obvious that ministers and a number of compliant MPs are trying to turn the issue into a Conservative v Labour contest. Since they know Labour will vote against the draft deal anyway I presume this is a thinly veiled tactic to try to rally dissenting Tory MPs.  A bit lame in my view but perhaps understandable given the desperation of the PM.      

I noted the same as MDS when I had a look at BBC Parliament TV when I tuned in to catch up a bit yesterday,  it was a pleasant change from the fiasco that is PMQ.    As I see it there is no Parliamentary majority for any of the possibles on the table, the TM deal, a no deal brexit or no brexit.        I would encourage all MP's to go listen to the general public in their constituencies;  but not their party activists or party committee members, not even the club members who's main interests appear to be 'the club' rather than the politics.    They need to go out to the high street, the local market & the pub & ask Joe & Joan Public.   I suspect they might find most will say just get on with it & that many see the TM deal as the best we can hope for.   I would be especially very interested to hear the high street opinion in N.Ireland,  obviously they have so much more at stake than does middle england.

It's been evident (to me at least) that certain forum members of the Brexiter persuasion have been calling for the thread to be pulled (on several occasions), largely because they are losing the arguments. For example, repeated requests to provide reasons why the UK will benefit from Brexit have been met with a resounding silence, apart from the usual bluster about sovereignty and taking back control. Yet we need to keep lines of communication open now more than ever - especially if only to ensure that we agree to disagree, so that we can all get on with our lives in reasonable harmony. I agree that ywna's contribution above is regrettable, particularly on a forum with an international audience. 

Respectfully, I don't see though that pulling the thread is the appropriate response - rather I'd prefer that Richard apply forum standards which we all sign up to to individual members who cross the line, as appears to be the case here. Nearly all other contributors manage to observe forum rules - indeed I'd point to the bigfred whose posts as a Brexiter can be hard hitting but he does manage to keep them respectful.

 

thebigfredc posted:
Hmack posted:
Wugged Woy posted:
glasnaim posted:

When I was a lot younger I was dating a girl , who's father used the pseudonym Thurso Berwick, he wrote this as a verse in one of his songs ; 

Noo Scotland hasnae got a King.

And she hasnae got a Queen

How can ye hae the Second Liz

When the First yin's never been.

Given the history between the two nations it's perhaps surprising the union has lasted so long.

 

 

Love Scotland and the Scottish, but when I hear such patriotic (and historically coloured) bull..... I turn to the fact that  basically IMHO, 99% of English don't give a damn about them. And if they want to break free from the UK, then fine. Bye bye.

"Love Scotland and the Scottish, BUT" …   - really?

Sounds so very like the posts we see every now and again that begin "I am not a racist, but ..."

WUGGED WOY'S post seems fair enough to me.

There are many Scotts who despise the English and hugely resent Westminster (see Glasnaim's posts) so why shouldn't they be allowed to toodle off into the sunset to live the lives they want and desire. 

And as his post points out, a good number of us south of the border don't really care although there is one notable exception who is ironically the subject of the poem - the Queen - who ripped call me Dave a new one over letting them have a devolution referendum.

Roy

Get real, the verse from a song,  was carrying on a humorous theme of poems re Scots/English. If I was as thin skinned and insecure as yourself I could have taken more exception to Huge's previous post/poem, check it out, but I didn't, it's called humour, try it sometime may make your life more bearable.

The Scots don't despise the English and brave heart isn't  real, you only seem to get from my posts what you want to take. A lot of Scots who vote SNP aren't nationalists in the sense that you portray, we don't hate the English but we despair at the incompetence and lies of west minister, in fairness not just the tories but labour as well. We voted overwhelmingly to stay in Europe, this position is central to the increasing support for the SNP.

The song that seems to upset you is not really anti queen, read the lyrics for yourself, Scottish  Breakaway (Coronation Coronach), Thurso Berwick. Maybe you and others down south don't care what happens to Scotland and would be happy for us to "toddle off". The Scots always have always and will continue to participate in the UK's political system until the position is untenable, I think you need to look closer to home for those that will be responsible for splitting up the union.

Yet again, I ask that discussion on this topic stick to the day to day events surrounding the Brexit process.  I also ask that members try to show respect to other members regardless of whether their position on Brexit is at odds with their own.  Otherwise, with some of the language that has been used here, I can't see Naim wanting to host this discussion on here much longer. Thank you.

hungryhalibut posted:

What still gets me is that we didn’t need the referendum in the first place. People didn’t vote to leave the EU, it was to kick the government in the teeth for not paying them enough attention in the first place. That’s why it was the poorer areas that voted leave, because they have suffered years of underinvestment while communities struggled. And despite that kicking, the government still doesn’t take note. The government have simply shifted the blame from themselves to the ‘unelected bureaucrats’ in Brussels. Of course, people are now convinced that it’s all the EU’s fault. What will happen when/if we leave and things don’t get better? Who will then get the blame?

HH, I made this same comment myself on another post in 2016 after the referendum result. My family are from and still live in the potteries and have witnessed  the demise of the coal, steel and finally the pottery industry itself over the last 30 years. The pottery industry was essentially the default job base for the less affluent and lesser educated members of the community. With this now mostly gone and of that which remains employing eastern European immigrants to fill jobs that they considered their 'bread and butter' since the industry was created back in the 1700's. The summation of all that is a complete and total grievance with the lack political consideration for their plight. They feel thrown on the scrap heap and thriving business is all governments care about, whatever the colour of their rosette. Yes thriving business is important and is the source of wealth and tax revenue but where does one draw the line on its impact upon the indigenous population? the same can be said of many other communities around the country.

After years of not being listened to and their concerns being ignored these same voters saw an opportunity to hit back. Can you blame them?

How many of us are lobbying our MP this week to try to actually influence this process? Apart from just that one vote we placed are most of us on here just enjoying the banter without really trying to be engaged?

Mine's a wee bit busy trying to create a miracle (he is Tory Chief Whip) but he has had my views before. I personally feel very removed from this debate raging in Parliament and the outcomes that may appear.

Bruce

Southweststokie posted:
...

After years of not being listened to and their concerns being ignored these same voters saw an opportunity to hit back. Can you blame them?

It's just particularly unfortunate that, through a lack of understanding, so many decided to hit back in a way that will damage our economy, damage the country's ability to provide services and social benefits, and reduce their own prospects as well as those for everyone else in the country.

Huge posted:

It's just particularly unfortunate that, through a lack of understanding, so many decided to hit back in a way that will damage our economy, damage the country's ability to provide services and social benefits, and reduce their own prospects as well as those for everyone else in the country.

Sadly that may be the case but let's place the blame where it belongs with politicians who don't / won't listen to their voters and are only set on their own personal political interests and ideologies.

Southweststokie posted:
hungryhalibut posted:

What still gets me is that we didn’t need the referendum in the first place. People didn’t vote to leave the EU, it was to kick the government in the teeth for not paying them enough attention in the first place. That’s why it was the poorer areas that voted leave, because they have suffered years of underinvestment while communities struggled. And despite that kicking, the government still doesn’t take note. The government have simply shifted the blame from themselves to the ‘unelected bureaucrats’ in Brussels. Of course, people are now convinced that it’s all the EU’s fault. What will happen when/if we leave and things don’t get better? Who will then get the blame?

HH, I made this same comment myself on another post in 2016 after the referendum result. My family are from and still live in the potteries and have witnessed  the demise of the coal, steel and finally the pottery industry itself over the last 30 years. The pottery industry was essentially the default job base for the less affluent and lesser educated members of the community. With this now mostly gone and of that which remains employing eastern European immigrants to fill jobs that they considered their 'bread and butter' since the industry was created back in the 1700's. The summation of all that is a complete and total grievance with the lack political consideration for their plight. They feel thrown on the scrap heap and thriving business is all governments care about, whatever the colour of their rosette. Yes thriving business is important and is the source of wealth and tax revenue but where does one draw the line on its impact upon the indigenous population? the same can be said of many other communities around the country.

After years of not being listened to and their concerns being ignored these same voters saw an opportunity to hit back. Can you blame them?

No, I can’t blame them at all. What upsets me though is that the downtrodden and dispossessed were whipped up with lies and promises of sunny uplands by a right wing elite using them for their own ends. They could have chosen hanging, so perhaps we should be grateful that they chose leaving the EU. 

Friends

Not to worry. My optimistic scenario.

You're going to stay in the EU. New York Times did an article today on how the citizens of the Brexit stronghold Sunderland are starting to have second thoughts big time as they realize more and more what they will lose and how little Tory London seems to care about them. Add to that the growing awareness of the insurmountable Irish border issues and the  total inability of both of your major parties to agree on anything except their dislike for each other, means there will be no agreement to leave. Your government will be in turmoil. In the end, juggling all the pieces is too much. It's beyond the government's ability , perhaps any government's ability, in the time allowed.  As the resulting Brexit crash-out becomes increasingly likely, outcomes will become clearer, fingers will be pointed, Boris Johnson will make one more self serving statement, eyes will widen, fear and panic will increase until the last moment when, behind the scenes, your government will ask for a delay in the process which the EU will be happy to grant. The excuse given may even be to allow time for a second referendum. After that it will be all about a face saving return. You need the EU and they need you! Two plus years of hell and nothing to show for it. But better than the alternative.

But I could be wrong! I am an optimist.

Clay Bingham posted:

Friends

Not to worry. My optimistic scenario.

You're going to stay in the EU. New York Times did an article today on how the citizens of the Brexit stronghold Sunderland are starting to have second thoughts big time as they realize more and more what they will lose and how little Tory London seems to care about them. Add to that the growing awareness of the insurmountable Irish border issues and the  total inability of both of your major parties to agree on anything except their dislike for each other, means there will be no agreement to leave. Your government will be in turmoil. In the end, juggling all the pieces is too much. It's beyond the government's ability , perhaps any government's ability, in the time allowed.  As the resulting Brexit crash-out becomes increasingly likely, outcomes will become clearer, fingers will be pointed, Boris Johnson will make one more self serving statement, eyes will widen, fear and panic will increase until the last moment when, behind the scenes, your government will ask for a delay in the process which the EU will be happy to grant. The excuse given may even be to allow time for a second referendum. After that it will be all about a face saving return. You need the EU and they need you! Two plus years of hell and nothing to show for it. But better than the alternative.

But I could be wrong! I am an optimist.

Regrettably, I see nothing optimistic in that scenario.

I am particularly dismayed by our Government’s inability to organise an orderly exit that meets the wishes of the majority - after all, we’re not trying to land on the moon! But being led by Remainers, perhaps I should not be surprised ...

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

How many of us are lobbying our MP this week to try to actually influence this process? Apart from just that one vote we placed are most of us on here just enjoying the banter without really trying to be engaged?

Mine's a wee bit busy trying to create a miracle (he is Tory Chief Whip) but he has had my views before. I personally feel very removed from this debate raging in Parliament and the outcomes that may appear.

Bruce

Well, I've written several letters to mine, most of which get a polite yet sometimes at the same time mildly insulting response.   

Looking on the bright side, at least he doesn't answer in Latin.

I've got the pleasure of living in a beautiful part of the UK (edge of Cotswolds, just outside of Bath in the middle of nowhere) with the dis-pleasure of Rees-Mogg as an MP...

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