C'mon guys (and gals), what does the atom sound like?

Obsydian posted:

Been going crazy with my Atom constantly switching on and off in a quick loop for upto 5 mins before finally going into Standby. Using the remote or Atom Standby switch did nothing.

I narrowed it down to when powering on or off via the Naim app, then thought it's the app, anyway shirt version my Android app causes the loop but the Apple app does not.

Also the Android app let's you change settings like standby but it does nothing, going into the Apple app shandy was set to 20 mins Android showed 5 mins.

So relieved it's Android but you guys really need to sort your app quality out.

Note also reset the device to solve and no joy.

Has been reported on the beta forum already.

 

Obsydian posted:

Been going crazy with my Atom constantly switching on and off in a quick loop for upto 5 mins before finally going into Standby. Using the remote or Atom Standby switch did nothing.

I narrowed it down to when powering on or off via the Naim app, then thought it's the app, anyway shirt version my Android app causes the loop but the Apple app does not.

Also the Android app let's you change settings like standby but it does nothing, going into the Apple app shandy was set to 20 mins Android showed 5 mins.

So relieved it's Android but you guys really need to sort your app quality out.

Note also reset the device to solve and no joy.

I am normally quite supportive of Naim but this is plain stupid. Was the Atom's functionality not tested with the Android app at the factory? It must have been. If we assume this to be correct then this bug was missed in factory testing BUT was picked up and presumably reported by the beta testers if I understand correctly. No way this app/Atom issue should have been missed prior to the Atom launch if I understand correctly. Obsydian has both Android and Apple so no major issues. But what about the poor souls who only have Android. If there aren't any now, there soon will be. Bonkers!

It would be interesting to hear if this bug has been missed or the pressure to launch the Atom was just too great. I'm not holding my breath for an answer to that one.

Either way the phrase 'shooting yourself in the foot' springs to mind!

nigelb posted:
Obsydian posted:

Been going crazy with my Atom constantly switching on and off in a quick loop for upto 5 mins before finally going into Standby. Using the remote or Atom Standby switch did nothing.

I narrowed it down to when powering on or off via the Naim app, then thought it's the app, anyway shirt version my Android app causes the loop but the Apple app does not.

Also the Android app let's you change settings like standby but it does nothing, going into the Apple app shandy was set to 20 mins Android showed 5 mins.

So relieved it's Android but you guys really need to sort your app quality out.

Note also reset the device to solve and no joy.

I am normally quite supportive of Naim but this is plain stupid. Was the Atom's functionality not tested with the Android app at the factory? It must have been. If we assume this to be correct then this bug was missed in factory testing BUT was picked up and presumably reported by the beta testers if I understand correctly. Obsydian has both Android and Apple so no major issues. But what about the poor souls who only have Android. If there aren't any now, there soon will be. Bonkers!

It would be interesting to hear if this bug has been missed or the pressure to launch the Atom was just too great.

Either way the phrase 'shooting yourself in the foot' springs to mind!

Hi Nigelb

The beta tests (Naim customers) did not get to test the Atom before release, I only picked mine up on Friday and it was one of the dealer's first Atoms to arrive.

I am sure Naim has been working very hard testing, however deployment of many Atoms to customers may find things that where not seen in the Naim testing.

As SSMITH reported, the problem Obsydian idenfitied has been seen by one of the Beta testers who has taken delivery of the Atom, this was reported to Naim yesterday. Naim are looking into this issue.

Only having had the Atom 5 days, I have to say it looks and sounds great.

Simon

Simon Frequency posted:
nigelb posted:
Obsydian posted:

Been going crazy with my Atom constantly switching on and off in a quick loop for upto 5 mins before finally going into Standby. Using the remote or Atom Standby switch did nothing.

I narrowed it down to when powering on or off via the Naim app, then thought it's the app, anyway shirt version my Android app causes the loop but the Apple app does not.

Also the Android app let's you change settings like standby but it does nothing, going into the Apple app shandy was set to 20 mins Android showed 5 mins.

So relieved it's Android but you guys really need to sort your app quality out.

Note also reset the device to solve and no joy.

I am normally quite supportive of Naim but this is plain stupid. Was the Atom's functionality not tested with the Android app at the factory? It must have been. If we assume this to be correct then this bug was missed in factory testing BUT was picked up and presumably reported by the beta testers if I understand correctly. Obsydian has both Android and Apple so no major issues. But what about the poor souls who only have Android. If there aren't any now, there soon will be. Bonkers!

It would be interesting to hear if this bug has been missed or the pressure to launch the Atom was just too great.

Either way the phrase 'shooting yourself in the foot' springs to mind!

Hi Nigelb

The beta tests (Naim customers) did not get to test the Atom before release, I only picked mine up on Friday and it was one of the dealer's first Atoms to arrive.

I am sure Naim has been working very hard testing, however deployment of many Atoms to customers may find things that where not seen in the Naim testing.

As SSMITH reported, the problem Obsydian idenfitied has been seen by one of the Beta testers who has taken delivery of the Atom, this was reported to Naim yesterday. Naim are looking into this issue.

Only having had the Atom 5 days, I have to say it looks and sounds great.

Simon

Ah OK that puts it into some context. I am still confused however as to why a basic functionality issue with the Android app wasn't picked up by Naim prior to the Atom's launch.

I suppose there will always be issues missed at beta level. Roon who those still awake will know I'm a big fan of have had a few major enough issues that only manifested upon release. In fairness a new version is usually released within 24 hours. 

The over the air updates of the atom should allow for similar speedy updates. 

.sjb

Yes, all fair comments. But how can such a basic app malfunction with a new product elude Naim. I am still none the wiser. Is it that one Android device works fine with the app but another doesn't? Or are commercial pressures the trump card here?

I am happy to give Naim the benefit of the doubt here but it is a pretty bad functionality issue to launch. I am sure however that now it has been highlighted an over the air fix will be issued quickly.

nigelb posted:

Yes, all fair comments. But how can such a basic app malfunction with a new product elude Naim. I am still none the wiser. Is it that one Android device works fine with the app but another doesn't? Or are commercial pressures the trump card here?

I am happy to give Naim the benefit of the doubt here but it is a pretty bad functionality issue to launch. I am sure however that now it has been highlighted an over the air fix will be issued quickly.

I'm not sure the issue is definitely just Android, but there is also a remote to use as well to power things off.

The atom will have probably lots of issues for next 6 months until it is stabilised. To be accepted or not.

However, sound is priority one. can owners please especially dealers tell us in more details how it sound please with different speakers. Comparison to qute2 ideal. Thanks in advance 

Simon

Ah OK that puts it into some context. I am still confused however as to why a basic functionality issue with the Android app wasn't picked up by Naim prior to the Atom's launch.

 

Ideally all issues should have been solvd before release, but in the ugly real world often the first customers are taking part in some sort of late beta test, and most people should be used to  how computerized accessiries works or rather not works from the start.

Claus

Hi,

Regarding the Atom power cycle issue above.  We have identified the root cause, fix has been implemented within the android app which we intend to distribute to beta forum tomorrow to triple check that our fix is good in real world scenarios and then, pending success, we will push up to release status. I apologise for any inconvenience caused but thank you all and in particular the members of the beta forum for the detailed reproduction steps provided as it helped us reproduce the issue and nail it.

I can say that with large scale test programme that we operated before launch we didn't spot this issue, which is something we are folding back into our testing programme as a continuous improvement, but i'm very glad that the forum supported us in reproducing it.

For customers that aren't on the beta programme and wish to check this fix, could i ask that you contact Phil Harris in Naim technical support (support@naimaudio.com) to participate.

Trevor

FWIW I had a good listen to the Atom last night at the local Naim dealers. I did not compare it with the unitiqute. It  was fed by the Core and speakers were totem dream catchers, a small column mounted speaker. The sound was crisp and incisive. The speakers however limited the atom, as I heard it last year with floor standing totems ? staffs, and it sounded better with the more capable speakers.

Dan, the Naim export representative said the new Uniti series has been designed from the ground up as a brand new integrated system for each model. This is compared to the previous generation of unitis that  were essentially one box solutions using existing naim components. Because the new Unitis are much cleaner in their audio topography electronics, they sound much better than the older models.

I also listened to the Naim Nova and it again sounded very clean and dynamic. It was driving large Totem floor standers worth $10000 with aplomb.

Also word from the salespeople is that the core sounds better than the unitiserve it replaces. It was put into a very well set up Statement system and showed a clean pair of heels to the Unitiserve in their trials.

Anyway, that is what I was told , so you can take it with a grain of salt, but that was the buzz.

Well we didn't get to the Atom + S-800 yet but did a demo yesterday for a customer with Atom + SN2 and then SN3 with lots of house/techno etc so have been playing that all day today as well. Absolutely astonishing, bass drive and detail shockingly close to (but not a replacement for it I think) a classic system at approx 90dB SPL for several hours and the Atom barely gets warm. Defies belief really. Especially with Core via DC-1 so we're mainly looking at the D/A and analog portion at this point. Certainly checks all the usual boxes that everyone new to properly designed audio latches on to - convincing replay of piano, swaggering through complex dense passages, emotion-full vocals, faithful grasp of the foundation bass line and so on.

Sadly mine didn't work.  Picked it up on the 27th (as an aside I also got the Core rather than Atom instructions), plugged it in, and it started an update.  Dealer suggested I just leave it to complete - 48 hours later it was still updating.  Took it in to the dealer on Monday, they couldn't work out what was going on, and were sent a patch from the Naim techies.  That didn't work, so it's gone back.

I'm back to waiting patiently, as I have done since November, but rather jealously as I hear the stories of how good it is.

I'm hoping to get a new replacement - rather that than a repaired original - kind of lost my confidence in that one....

My experience suggests that this is not the first time Naim have launched a new product without it being properly tested. When the Uniti 2 was released I went through 3 units which all suffered the same fault (something to do with the CD player I seem to recall) and my dealer confirmed was a manufacturing problem. I gave up and got a SuperUniti instead. I'm thinking of getting a Star but I shall wait until I'm sure all the problems have been ironed out. I would have thought Naim would have got their pre-release testing to be more robust.

To be fair to Naim, I believe that the issue with the Uniti2 came from the new CD drive that they were forced to change to which, when batches of production pieces supplied, turned out slightly different to what had been designed for. Naim had to discover the hard way and re-do the firmware to accommodate the change.

It sounds like Phuggie's unit may have bricked during an update - it can happen to anyone, especially if there's any unforeseen interruption.

Re the Uniti2 CD drive issue Richard Dane refers to above. A couple of years ago I was on a Naim factory tour and Jason mentioned it when telling us about the thoroughness of Naim QA processes. I was very impressed with the explanation of how the Uniti CD drive issue was, with some difficulty and persistence, identified and resolved by Naim (and, yes, it was something beyond Naim‘s control).

I’ll try to do justice (from memory) to the explanation I heard. I don’t think I’m saying anything here that Naim would rather wasn’t repeated, but if Richard thinks otherwise, then no doubt he will edit or delete as necessary.

In summary, Naim, an experienced and high quality manufacturer of CD players was finding unexpected returns of the Uniti product due to CD drive failure. In testing they were unable to find any reason for this in their production. After to-ing and fro-ing with the CD drive supplier, the latter, after doing their own checking/testing, maintained that nothing could be attributed to their product or processes. To move this forward, Naim then referred an example of a Uniti and the CD drive to an independent lab for testing and analysis. This found (if I recall correctly) that the composition of certain cable insulation in the CD drive had been changed, and that when in use, this resulted in some substance being emitted causing a failure somewhere in the electronics of the Uniti CD replay. These lab results were referred back to the CD drive supplier and accepted by them. The cable insulation was changed by the supplier and the CD issues with the Uniti ceased.

This explanation came across to me as entirely plausible, and told with absolute sincerity and conviction.

For me it emphasised how mind bogglingly complex the manufacture of high quality electronics and components can be, and, how easy it can be for a manufacturer’s hard earned reputation for quality to be shaken by something so apparently innocuous and beyond their control.

I had previously read on this forum about the Uniti issues, and as a Naim customer (albeit not for Uniti) was reassured to know how it had come about. I was also reassured and impressed by the rigour of Naim’s approach to the problem, and, of the quality of their staff at being able to see it through to a satisfactory conclusion. I got the feeling that both the CD drive supplier and Naim had learned from this.

 

I think your response is fine up to a point. I appreciate these things can be complicated and that Naim was not at fault for causing the fault. Furthermore there will inevitably be teething problems with new models - but these should be identified and resolved before they go on sale.  This was a problem that was immediately obvious on all 3 of the units I had so surely it should have been picked up when they were testing the new Uniti 2 before releasing it to the public? The fact that people are reporting issues with the Atom and new releases of the app suggests to me that they still need to test their new models more robustly before they put them on sale.

Unfortunately we're not yet in a world where we can completely rely on software being robust - coding is complex and certainly even more so if some is from different suppliers, which I understand to be the case with the Atom.  Testing can never replicate real world usage, and from the happy stories I'm hearing from other users, it seems my Atom had some form of glitch (or bricked, as per Richard Dane) and may well be unique or at least unusual in that.

I'm happy to give Naim the benefit of doubt - at least as long as I get a replacement soon!

A time dependant fault caused by a change to a bough in component (e.g. one caused by a change to a chemically incompatible formulation) isn't going to be shown up in pre-release testing unless you're going to keep the first production batch for several months (or a year? two? three? where do you stop?) before releasing them.  That's just not practical.

If the fault was "immediately obvious" then the three Unitis you had had probably been in the distribution chain before delivery.  In other words they worked fine when tested in the factory but the fault developed during storage or transport before you received the item.  This is a rare type of event but not something that can be predicted or completely avoided.

In the case of the Atom, the systems have now become so complex that faults will inevitable slip past the testing.  I assume that you accept patches for your computers and mobile devices?  Well why are they necessary?  Answer: To fix faults that weren't found in testing.  Same problem.  Apple, Google, Microsoft et al. have enormously more resources than Naim and even they can't get it right immediately all the time.

Seen the uniti update about the Atom with hdmi. Thats the model I am after 

dear naim people, please take your time to get it right. We are very aware of how difficult it is. I don't want to join the moaning crowd expecting perfection. They have a point probably but all I am asking is that you take your time to get it right...better your side than mine with my little patience.we know that you will continue fixing issues and thats all I need to know.

Big thanks to all naim people for your effort. My job is to deliver difficult programmes and projects so I know how challenging it is for all parts of the chain. That's no excuse but too easy to talk when we don't know the whole story. Make sure you share this message internally from a future naim owner (newbie)

what hifi gave you a glowing review but I will trust my ears and more serious places :-) 

 

 

Huge posted:

 

In the case of the Atom, the systems have now become so complex that faults will inevitable slip past the testing. 

Huge, this made me chuckle - the saying goes something like: everyone has a job, it's hardware's job to create problems and software's job to fix them

Actually a software engineer I worked with here in Silicon Valley brought that to my attention. This reminds me of another story the intrepid engineer told me - while working at one of the router companies here he took it on himself to make absolutely sure his fix was sufficiently  tested and being late at night with the office empty and no other way to do it decided to use the company network to direct enormous amounts of traffic at the product he was working on, thereby triggering all sorts of alarms and a visit from the head of IT.

Just to add i mentioned in anotger thread i got the death cycle as I call it now using the ipad, had to deep sleep, then unplug the Atom, factory reset to get going.

I actually bought an iPad as similar manufacturer (Nespresso) have the same Apple fanboy employee team, no doubt so focus on that o/s.

So now I just don't use Android and do not power on or off the Atom from the ipad as that's what caused the cycle of death.

Really if the Atom wasn' so damn bloody good, I would have been returning for a full refund.

It's still sad to see big reputable companies not just naim scrimp or overlook the o/s and app development team, almost an after thought, damn most team have higher paid graphic designer on making the app look cool but bollocks to does it even work.

What is not acceptable as mentioned by other earlier is basic 101 end of line and good product DV.

Lastly there have been comments on other threads about Naim advising it's home network, WiFi, LAN protocols - well bollocks what were you expecting only IT gurus to set devices up or them to work in perfect lab environments - I think the vast majority of novice customers will ask for a refund.

I recall trying to setup my old Muso to Wi-Fi (LAN cable I had was too short) after a few hours I gave up, next day got a longer LAN cable sorted. But plenty of people do use these devices purely on WIFI.

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Artferg20Jonathan H
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