Cisco 2960 - Power Cables

French Rooster posted:
Obsydian posted:

Hi guys

FINKFAN - good to hear, sorry i just popped out to pick up a Wireworld 6 way, just about the try the Powerline into that, then all my router, switch, fibre bridge)

FRENCH ROOSTER - yes it is a disaster, i have tried, listened and back to a pre build. I have the Indigo and C Stream in place, everything is singing to well to disturb, but YES i was always intending to remove the network bridge (just to hear), but i like to make one change at a time. So you have no fibre bridge now.

HUGE - my first 3 cables where sub £10 from Amazon : ) at the moment VERY seriously looking at the Sarum T, but as MR ROOSTER mentioned i want to trial something else.

 

yes Obsydian, i have no fiber bridge now.  I think the audioquest diamond ( or other high quality lans) are removing the noise as the network bridge, but in the same time the sound has more prat and edge, without being edgy or hard.  All is more musical now.

But with entry level lans, the fiber bridge was quite essential.

For me, the way to go now is 2 high quality lans and the cisco 2960 between the router and the streamer.

I didn’t experienced Charlesphoto or Ciscu fiber bridge with 2 cisco 2960.  Maybe one day....

FrenchRooster - I just did an A-B-A  (A = with FB and B = without FB), I managed it with 1 change, that being to just switch my cable to the Nova to either the FB (A) or direct switch (B).

Result I will be keeping the FB ; ), did not take long to decide.

Obsydian posted:
French Rooster posted:
Obsydian posted:

Hi guys

FINKFAN - good to hear, sorry i just popped out to pick up a Wireworld 6 way, just about the try the Powerline into that, then all my router, switch, fibre bridge)

FRENCH ROOSTER - yes it is a disaster, i have tried, listened and back to a pre build. I have the Indigo and C Stream in place, everything is singing to well to disturb, but YES i was always intending to remove the network bridge (just to hear), but i like to make one change at a time. So you have no fibre bridge now.

HUGE - my first 3 cables where sub £10 from Amazon : ) at the moment VERY seriously looking at the Sarum T, but as MR ROOSTER mentioned i want to trial something else.

 

yes Obsydian, i have no fiber bridge now.  I think the audioquest diamond ( or other high quality lans) are removing the noise as the network bridge, but in the same time the sound has more prat and edge, without being edgy or hard.  All is more musical now.

But with entry level lans, the fiber bridge was quite essential.

For me, the way to go now is 2 high quality lans and the cisco 2960 between the router and the streamer.

I didn’t experienced Charlesphoto or Ciscu fiber bridge with 2 cisco 2960.  Maybe one day....

FrenchRooster - I just did an A-B-A  (A = with FB and B = without FB), I managed it with 1 change, that being to just switch my cable to the Nova to either the FB (A) or direct switch (B).

Result I will be keeping the FB ; ), did not take long to decide.

thanks for your report. I was curious.    Different systems, different results...  I am waiting the new cisco switch i got for a bargain price on bay.  I will report here after.

For the network bridge effect, my new audioquest diamond lans have some sort of filtering ( dbs filters outside the cable), which gave probably similar results.  With the fmc it is perhaps too much, so the prat is affected.

Well there are multiple Cisco 2960 threads so I might as well post here as it is the most current.

My Ebay $149 White 2960 Gigabit switch, manufacture date October 2013 (since newer ones seem to be better) arrived last night. Based on previous postings I am simply going to use the supplied power lead.

A few "philosophical" questions regarding installation.  

There is an long "starting" ethernet run of CAT5 from the garage ONT (which provides 150/150 internet via Fiber) to the router/modem in the listening room.  Files for my KDS are stored on a downstairs kitchen iMac.  This iMac is also connected to the upstairs listening room via 100-150 feet of generic CAT5.  

A mesh type wifi system (currently Google Wifi but soon to be testing Linksys Velop) is connected to the listening room router/modem.  There is a "parent" node of the wifi system connected via generic 10' ethernet cable to the router/modem.  A second ethernet cable then runs  from this parent node to the Cisco 2960 switch in the listening room.  The switch will host the other computers in the house, 3 other google wifi "child" nodes - and finally the KDS.

One "fancy" Blue Jeans cable was purchased  to go between the 2960 switch and KDS.  Would it be beneficial to replace and use Blue Jeans cables between the router/modem (effectively the "source") to the Google Wifi "parent", and then from the Google Wifi parent back to the Cisco switch?  My plan was to only use a fancy Blue Jean ethernet cable between the Cisco switch and KDS. 

Keep in mind the cost of two additional Blue Jean cables is negligent.

Are you streaming Tidal? If so, then anything pre-2960 might make a small but subtle difference. Post switch only the one to the KDS will make any difference, not the WiFi. But I wouldn’t bother with BJC and just use something like Amazon Basics Cat 6 for the longer Cat 5 run. You have to figure in the hassle factor of replacement more than the cost though. 

FYI here’s my network: Asus coaxial modem (12v R-core linear power supply - stove circuit)> patch to AirPort Extreme (same circuit)> 25’ Generic Cat 6a> Cisco 2960 (office circuit with NUC server> all traffic> SFP> Cisco 2960 in living room (dedicated circuit)>Ghent Audio JSSG RJ45 to microRendu, (generic to Roku). Sounds very good!

Hmmm, now you have me wondering about replacing that 25’ of generic from the airport to the 2960, dang you!

Obsydian posted:

Yes after and and given you and some other persuaded me to try the fibre bridge ; )

I guess I was hoping like you say regard the AQ the Chord Indigo would be better alone.

before i put a second audioquest diamond, from the router to the cisco, the system sounded better with the network bridge.  But recently i replaced my meicord opal lan in this section by the audioquest diamond, and now it changed the whole thing.

Perhaps if you replace your c stream from your router to the cisco by a second indigo, you will find the same as me.   But difficult to predict.

charlesphoto posted:

Are you streaming Tidal? If so, then anything pre-2960 might make a small but subtle difference. Post switch only the one to the KDS will make any difference, not the WiFi. But I wouldn’t bother with BJC and just use something like Amazon Basics Cat 6 for the longer Cat 5 run. You have to figure in the hassle factor of replacement more than the cost though. 

I do stream Tidal however I mainly stream my FLAC's.  At the beginning of lossless streaming (ie TIDAL) I was one who believed that TIDAL steams were effectively the same as lossless FLAC's.  I no longer subscribe to that and feel that they are inferior to my rips (digital watermarking?).

I cannot change any of the longer runs as they are in the walls - it would be a royal pain.  The only runs which could be changed are those which are post router/modem.  For me, unless someone says otherwise, I consider the cable/router to be the start or source of the data stream.  That is why I questioned if the short 10' runs to the Google Wifi and then back from the Google to the switch should also be changed.

So yes in the end it sounds like the one which counts is the one which I am addressing - the ethernet run from the switch to the KDS.  Maybe I will also change the back and forth to the Google router - after all they are only two $20 Blue Jean cables.  This way I will have changed all I can short of ripping open the walls!

Time to swap in the Cisco switch during the next few days and see what it does.

French Rooster posted:

the last lan, which goes to the nds, is the most important.  But the first lan, from the router, has also an important impact.  But some argue that a lan is a lan and it changes anything....

I would think the same.  I am going to Amazon now to order two more Blue Jean cables.  

charlesphoto posted:

FYI here’s my network: Asus coaxial modem (12v R-core linear power supply - stove circuit)> patch to AirPort Extreme (same circuit)> 25’ Generic Cat 6a> Cisco 2960 (office circuit with NUC server> all traffic> SFP> Cisco 2960 in living room (dedicated circuit)>Ghent Audio JSSG RJ45 to microRendu, (generic to Roku). Sounds very good!

Hmmm, now you have me wondering about replacing that 25’ of generic from the airport to the 2960, dang you!

I really wouldn’t.. complete waste of time replacing lengthy  cables with so called ‘boutique cables’... if you have a bad common mode noise issue identify the source and or slap ferrite chokes around the cables.. you will almost certainly hear a change... Ethernet cables, especially over severeal  metres should be proper network certified ones rather than fancy questionable boutique ones. The correct approach in terms of good practice is infrastructure cabling should ideally more stiff conductors, and edge patch cabling more flexible.

The aim with the 2960 switches etc is to address different matter altogether from the matter of noise introduced in cables... it’s about using less noisy and stable  PHY layer clocks... so the benefit of the 2960 switch can only be properly experienced when directly connected to the streamer. Think of it like a stable SPDIF transport stream into a DAC... underneath the covers there is a lot similarity in the two scenarios especially if the DAC is reclocked to remove direct transport jitter. A fibre segment link using cheap media converters is going to almost certainly introduce PHY clock noise over the 2960 and so if introducedbetween switch and streamer would undermine the effects of the switch... however the resultant soup of combined noise might create a ssubjectively more pleasing sound for the listener ... see my next para.

Noisy or jitter physical level clocks produces coupled noise and intermodulation products into the receiver... just like with firmware code execution timing noise profiles that Naim control to a large extent, this noise affects the SQ profile.

Now I understand with the ND555 there are methods introduced to decouple this Ethernet PHY clock noise to a greater extent than currently applied.

Well - still posting here as this remains the most current Cisco thread.

I have been a member of this forum since 2003 so I have seen my share of upgrades, vfm, and jaw dropping moments.

In my system, Linn Klimax DS (KDS/4) running through 552/500 I am completely STUNNED at what happened with the introduction of my white Cisco 2960 1GB switch (and some Blue Jean ethernet cables).

About as bizarre as can be that something like this can make such a dramatic change in things.  For me it is a "box" upgrade - not quite a black box upgrade, but a box upgrade of a different type.

I am not going to try and understand the technicalities of what is going on here - the only thing my brain can latch onto is a post on the Linn DS forum where someone stated that switches "regenerate" the signal they are fed.  In my case that means that the files traveling from my kitchen iMac overseer 150' of ethernet cable then hit the Cisco and get regenerated into a fresh pristine signal within the Cisco switch low noise/better spec environment??

At that point a pristine signal is then sent over a short quality ethernet cable into the DS and then

MAGIC!

No need to regurgitate what has been said before - simply a massive increase in dynamics and bottom end, lower noise floor etc.  About the best $150 I have spent in a long time.

Looking over various forum posts it appears that the Sweden group of Linn users (Peder?) put the Cisco switch as the equivalent of an upgrade from the Akurate DS to the Klimax DS.  I might be inclined to agree with them.  Truly bizarre the results I am getting.

It’s good isn’t it... 

 

Another truly vfm benefit is playing Qobuz or Tidal streaming via BubbleUPnP into your Naim streamer via Ethernet .... master permitting, Tidal just sounds like local streaming... as essentially in this mode it is being streamed by a local proxy... so you get all the benefits of local home media streaming, but the content is else where.

Yes Simon - next up is to try Tidal with the new setup.

I have been a Tidal subscriber since the beginning (actually pre Tidal when Jimmy Iovine owned it) however I always felt that streaming to the KDS (with native integration by Linn ie the files pulled directly from Tidals servers) still did not quite sound like my local storage (someone mentioned digital watermarking as the problem).

Let's see what happens now with the Cisco.  As an additional bonus, now that we finally have native ROON integration with out Linns, I can also try out the (dreaded and ill spoken of) MQA and see how that sounds.

In the end, since it was cheap enough, I also splurged and added Blue Jeans cables between my:

router and Linksys Velop wifi point AND Velop wifi point to the Cisco

I obviously have a Blue Jeans cable between the Cisco and KDS.

 I might splurge again and add one last Blue Jeans cable.  The kitchen iMac with FLACS comes in over 150' of Ethernet and terminates at a wall plate in the listening room.  I will put a Blue Jean between the wall plate and the Cisco.  It makes sense as this is the cable which carriers the "valuable" source material into the Cisco

Yes if the file is watermarked, then it will be watermarked for all streaming and digital download purchase platforms... luckily not all files are watermarked, appears to depend on the media distributor.

i wouldn’t fret too much about the cables into your switch if you have quality equipment ... it’s the cable between the switch and streamer... and in my case I found it was the cable physically closest to the streamer that seemed to affect SQ (albeit ever so subtly)

glevethan posted:

Ok

Two songs into TIDAL streaming

My Lord - what has happened?

That could go either way... report please.

Just realized that the 2960 I got is throttling some of the speeds (we have 160mb plus) so now looking at a gigabit model like the one you just got. Should have grabbed that one! Enjoy! 

glevethan posted

 Looking over various forum posts it appears that the Sweden group of Linn users (Peder?) put the Cisco switch as the equivalent of an upgrade from the Akurate DS to the Klimax DS.  I might be inclined to agree with them.  Truly bizarre the results I am getting.

Glevethan,....this Sweden group is both Linn and Naim users,but I agree.....the results is truly bizarre. BUT,....fun,really fun.

AND,....I must really,really say THANK YOU to both 🔹HUNGRYHALIBUT, who started the "Posh-thread" soon around two years ago. It was there it started, and I read about this Cisco 2960 for the first time.......AND,...🔹SIMON IN SUFFOLK for all the expertise advice,in that thread.....and many other threads after that.You must have post at least 500 posts of this Cisco-switch.

❤ MANY,MANY THANKS TO BOTH OF YOU.

It's because of you two,that we have this better soundquality  here in Sweden...THANK YOU.!

/Peder🙂 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

It’s good isn’t it... 

 

Another truly vfm benefit is playing Qobuz or Tidal streaming via BubbleUPnP into your Naim streamer via Ethernet .... master permitting, Tidal just sounds like local streaming... as essentially in this mode it is being streamed by a local proxy... so you get all the benefits of local home media streaming, but the content is else where.

I’ve mentioned a few times recently that I thought many, but not all Tidal albums sounded better than they used to, and close to local streaming. It occurs to me now that this Tidal improvement roughly coincides with the installation of a 2960 feeding my NDX. If there has been any improvement in local streaming, it is more subtle. The plot thickens!

Peder posted:
glevethan posted

 Looking over various forum posts it appears that the Sweden group of Linn users (Peder?) put the Cisco switch as the equivalent of an upgrade from the Akurate DS to the Klimax DS.  I might be inclined to agree with them.  Truly bizarre the results I am getting.

Glevethan,....this Sweden group is both Linn and Naim users,but I agree.....the results is truly bizarre. BUT,....fun,really fun.

AND,....I must really,really say THANK YOU to both 🔹HUNGRYHALIBUT, who started the "Posh-thread" soon around two years ago. It was there it started, and I read about this Cisco 2960 for the first time.......AND,...🔹SIMON IN SUFFOLK for all the expertise advice,in that thread.....and many other threads after that.You must have post at least 500 posts of this Cisco-switch.

❤ MANY,MANY THANKS TO BOTH OF YOU.

It's because of you two,that we have this better soundquality  here in Sweden...THANK YOU.!

/Peder🙂 

Peder - you are welcome - I am glad its brought improvement for you - and certainly a lot better than fiddling around media converters and the such like which in my opinion make matters worse or at best no change and completely mis the point of what the Catalyst switches are doing  - unless using SFP fibre modules on the switch - and even then its somewhat moot because the Naim streamers don't support fibre currently.

ChrisSU posted:
Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

It’s good isn’t it... 

 

Another truly vfm benefit is playing Qobuz or Tidal streaming via BubbleUPnP into your Naim streamer via Ethernet .... master permitting, Tidal just sounds like local streaming... as essentially in this mode it is being streamed by a local proxy... so you get all the benefits of local home media streaming, but the content is else where.

I’ve mentioned a few times recently that I thought many, but not all Tidal albums sounded better than they used to, and close to local streaming. It occurs to me now that this Tidal improvement roughly coincides with the installation of a 2960 feeding my NDX. If there has been any improvement in local streaming, it is more subtle. The plot thickens!

i kind of doubt its related other than in a general sense - ie both local and remote streaming improves. But I do wonder if the SQ of some of the Tidal masters is improving... its hard to say as I have I have completely changed how I stream Tidal into my Naim and the difference now is significant... but there is still the occasional ropey master that I listen to - and I put that down do water marking - but I cant be sure

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:
ChrisSU posted:
Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

It’s good isn’t it... 

 

Another truly vfm benefit is playing Qobuz or Tidal streaming via BubbleUPnP into your Naim streamer via Ethernet .... master permitting, Tidal just sounds like local streaming... as essentially in this mode it is being streamed by a local proxy... so you get all the benefits of local home media streaming, but the content is else where.

I’ve mentioned a few times recently that I thought many, but not all Tidal albums sounded better than they used to, and close to local streaming. It occurs to me now that this Tidal improvement roughly coincides with the installation of a 2960 feeding my NDX. If there has been any improvement in local streaming, it is more subtle. The plot thickens!

i kind of doubt its related other than in a general sense - ie both local and remote streaming improves. But I do wonder if the SQ of some of the Tidal masters is improving... its hard to say as I have I have completely changed how I stream Tidal into my Naim and the difference now is significant... but there is still the occasional ropey master that I listen to - and I put that down do water marking - but I cant be sure

To be honest, I haven’t made any attempt at direct comparisons between Tidal and local streaming recently. I just noticed that Tidal has become more enjoyable, to the extent that I find myself being drawn into the music and enjoying it, whereas before, I might just have thought hmmm, sounds OK, maybe I’ll buy the CD. 

charlesphoto posted:
glevethan posted:

Ok

Two songs into TIDAL streaming

My Lord - what has happened?

That could go either way... report please.

Just realized that the 2960 I got is throttling some of the speeds (we have 160mb plus) so now looking at a gigabit model like the one you just got. Should have grabbed that one! Enjoy! 

Your 2960s probably have Gb speed on the ‘uplink’ ports (the ones you are using with SFPs) with the 8 regular ports running at 100Mb. Unless you have some particularly demanding client devices, I would have thought that would be enough?

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I have a range of 2960 switches of different ages - with differing power options - and they all sound the same to me

S

Pretty much what I figured, I do have an eye out for a good price on a used gigabit model. Our AirPort Extreme that comes pre switch/post modem does 174mb/s and my wired desktop post 2960 10/100 tops out at 94mb/s. In real world use not that big of a deal but would be nice to get all that we’re paying for (though it often drops down to 60-70mb/s during peak times). 

charlesphoto posted:
French Rooster posted:

just bought a cisco 2960-8tc-l, white, new and sealed, for around 170 GBP. Very good price i feel.  This forum doesn’t help to make economies...     I hope Obsydian was right !

Hi Rooster, Did you ever get the new 2960? Any change in sound? 

perhaps a little bit.  but the white cisco looks much better and i am sure it will work without problems because it is new.  I saw other new for less than 200GBP.....  I keep it.  

Thanks to all of you for having recommended the 2960 switch, 2 of which are now providing improved sound to both of my audio devices.  But, in the spirit of audiophile over-thinking stuff....

My Asus AC-88U router is providing my wi-fi and also has an 8 port switch built- into it.  Would there be any performance (not necessarily audio-reltaed) to off-loading the switching duties to a 2960G device, so as to have gigabit service to my NAS, Tivo, etc,?  I've been using the Asus essentially as plug-n-play, and have 150M internet speed from Comcast in Chicago. 

fzman posted:

Thanks to all of you for having recommended the 2960 switch, 2 of which are now providing improved sound to both of my audio devices.  But, in the spirit of audiophile over-thinking stuff....

My Asus AC-88U router is providing my wi-fi and also has an 8 port switch built- into it.  Would there be any performance (not necessarily audio-reltaed) to off-loading the switching duties to a 2960G device, so as to have gigabit service to my NAS, Tivo, etc,?  I've been using the Asus essentially as plug-n-play, and have 150M internet speed from Comcast in Chicago. 

Your Asus already has gigabit switch ports, so If it is working well now, I can’t see any reason to change. 

What's the liklihood that video performance would also be improved?  I am woefully unsure whether my Tivo pulls Netflix and Amazon content via the ethernet connection, or via the coax/cable-card from Xfinity (which is ultimately where my internet comes from anyway.) Not sure whether video streaming needs 1Gb vs 100Mb. Inquiring minds want to know.....

my white and new model cisco 2960 8tc is completely silent vs the old refurbished grey/blue model i had before :   the later was fan running when it was hot outside ( during 10 minutes every a couple of hours).

I connected the cisco recently to my main power block, where are connected my hifi components ( amp, pre, psu...):  the sound is a bit better, cleaner and more natural.

French Rooster posted:

my white and new model cisco 2960 8tc is completely silent vs the old refurbished grey/blue model i had before :   the later was fan running when it was hot outside ( during 10 minutes every a couple of hours).

Strange, as far as I was aware, all the 8 port versions are fanless!

ChrisSU posted:
French Rooster posted:

my white and new model cisco 2960 8tc is completely silent vs the old refurbished grey/blue model i had before :   the later was fan running when it was hot outside ( during 10 minutes every a couple of hours).

Strange, as far as I was aware, all the 8 port versions are fanless!

🔹 CHRISSU,....If I don't have complete "brain drop", it's so,...agree.!

/Peder🙂 

ChrisSU posted:
French Rooster posted:

my white and new model cisco 2960 8tc is completely silent vs the old refurbished grey/blue model i had before :   the later was fan running when it was hot outside ( during 10 minutes every a couple of hours).

Strange, as far as I was aware, all the 8 port versions are fanless!

i don’t know if i used the good term.  But when it was hot, more than 29 degree celsius outside, the last cisco i had was making noise like fan running, every several hours.  It was even very noisy, during perhaps 10 mn.    The term in french is «  le bruit du ventilateur « .

The model was a cisco 2960 8tc, 2009.  

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