Comrade Corbyn

A lot of stuff in the papers about the current Leader of the Opposition hanging around with top Eastern Bloc  spys in the eighties (sounds like a good title for a Fall song) although I notice they don't go so far as to actually call him a spy. I remember the Labour Party ending their conferences with a rousing rendition of the 'Red Flag' during the Foot and early Kinnock eras. He seems to have been more enthused with the Soviet Union than the European Union.

Ray

Original Post
thebigfredc posted:

A lot of stuff in the papers

By "in the papers" you mean predominantly those Right Wing papers who have been smearing Corbyn since he was elected leader?

about the current Leader of the Opposition hanging around with top Eastern Bloc  spys in the eighties although I notice they don't go so far as to actually call him a spy.

Well lets be accurate - as far as I can see; the Czech security services have documents showing that one agent met with Corbyn; but that Corbyn never shared any information of note. 

I remember the Labour Party ending their conferences with a rousing rendition of the 'Red Flag'

That would be because Red Flag is the official anthem of the Labour Party since its founding.  The song has nothing to do with Soviet Union.

thebigfredc posted:

I don't remember them (the Labour Party) singing it much when Tony Blair was leader. Bit disrespectful really as its their founding anthem.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/462871.stm

thebigfredc posted:

Although line 3 of the chorus is perfect for Pacificst/collaborator Jezza:

'though cowards and traitors sneer'

Rather Pacifism than War Mongering.

And your rather quoting the 3rd line out of context... given it’s talking about those coward against or traitors to Socialism...

Going back to your original subject though ... given the demands for transparency from May following the claims by Jan Sarkocy, shouldn’t we know if he is being paid for his interviews with the Sun and the Mail?  Apparently though thanks to Mr Corbyn the Czech intelligence service learned vital information such as what Margret Thatcher ate for breakfast.  And another little titbit ... Jan Sarkocy should be being hailed as hero of humanitarian aid given he launched Live Aid ( https://evolvepolitics.com/the...-launching-live-aid/ )

thebigfredc posted:

I don't remember them (the Labour Party) singing it much when Tony Blair was leader. Bit disrespectful really as its their founding anthem.

Maybe that's because Blair's New Labour was largely indistinguishable from the Conservative Party.

Clive B posted:
thebigfredc posted:

I don't remember them (the Labour Party) singing it much when Tony Blair was leader. Bit disrespectful really as its their founding anthem.

Maybe that's because Blair's New Labour was largely indistinguishable from the Conservative Party.

You apart from the very significant investment in public services like education and the NHS (lots of new schools and hospitals built), and not being anti-Europe?  

Mathew d'Anconna writing in that bastion of the right wing press, the Guardian, on Sunday doesn't share your analysis in relation to Corbyn exchanging pleasantries with representatives from the evil empire. It's available for free on line and perhaps carries more clout coming from a broadsheet paper.

Clive B posted:
thebigfredc posted:

I don't remember them (the Labour Party) singing it much when Tony Blair was leader. Bit disrespectful really as its their founding anthem.

Maybe that's because Blair's New Labour was largely indistinguishable from the Conservative Party.

It appears that the Red Flag singing was dropped in 2000, then in 2003 Suzannah Clarke lead the singing of it along with Jerusalem to close the conference.  It was reported Blair even sung along!

thebigfredc posted:

Mathew d'Anconna writing in that bastion of the right wing press, the Guardian, on Sunday doesn't share your analysis in relation to Corbyn exchanging pleasantries with representatives from the evil empire. It's available for free on line and perhaps carries more clout coming from a broadsheet paper.

My take on his article is that it’s important to get to the truth, not start mud slinging!

MDS posted:
Clive B posted:
thebigfredc posted:

I don't remember them (the Labour Party) singing it much when Tony Blair was leader. Bit disrespectful really as its their founding anthem.

Maybe that's because Blair's New Labour was largely indistinguishable from the Conservative Party.

You apart from the very significant investment in public services like education and the NHS (lots of new schools and hospitals built), and not being anti-Europe?  

I can ensure you Clive B's comment about the NHS is very well made. Blair created large burdens of NHS PFI debt but more importantly (and with the majority of his Party feigning blindness) he triggered a very substantial push to privatisation with his Choice agenda stuffing the pockets of privately run clinics and surgical centres etc. Most continue to grab substantial amounts of low intensity, high profit NHS work. He also created a bureaucratically top heavy management structure (PCTs) charged with meeting multiple, often spurious, targets in a culture riddled with perverse incentives and system-gaming.

Blair did not just start the cannibalisation of the NHS by private firms he gave it a very, very hearty push down the road that the Tories have failed to slow down. Oddly in some ways they have actually restricted it compared to Blair! As with most Blair policies it was done in name of populism ('look, falling wait lists; please love me') rather than socialism or principle.

Corbyn at least has a different NHS policy slant, although how realistic it may be I have no idea. He has to go a long way for me convince that the NHS will be 'saved' by a Labour administration in light of past history though.

Taking the Politics out of NHS politics is the only solution in my view. We need a national debate on what we expect and can afford plus a commitment to long term investment across health and social care that is used for innovation and system reform not just (usually pre-election) fire-fighting.

I would not place any bets on it mind you.

Bruce

Interesting view from the inside, Bruce. Thank you. Since the NHS is paid for by the taxpayer I think it impossible to remove it from politics but I do agree a more grown-up debate is needed especially about the interaction with social care. 

Eloise posted;

'Rather Pacifism than War Mongering'

Both approaches are wrong and have serious ramifications. I agree with Churchill in that better the jaw-jaw than the war-war but sometimes you have to puff your chest out, issue a threat to use force and then actually use it if the conditions you have set are breached. There are both recent and  historic examples of what happens when these rules are flaunted and on other occasions when they are followed. The Assad regime in Syria had given Obama's platitudes a good ignoring and continued to use poison gas in its civil war, sometimes against the civil population, until Trump came in as president and used 50 or so cruise missiles on Assad's Air Bases.

 

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

I mean removing it from being an ideological football in Party Politics and having long term consistent planning.

The first years of any new administration tend to be spent dismantling the structures and plans of the last, which is rarely helpful.

If only life was that simple! The current government and opposition ideologies are so polarised that it seems, like most common sense ideas, to be politically unattainable.

thebigfredc posted:

Mathew d'Anconna writing in that bastion of the right wing press, the Guardian, on Sunday doesn't share your analysis in relation to Corbyn exchanging pleasantries with representatives from the evil empire. It's available for free on line and perhaps carries more clout coming from a broadsheet paper.

It might be in teh Graun, but do spare a moment to consider who d'Ancona is.  Came up through the Times & Sunday Telegraph, then succeeded BoJo as editor of the Spectator.  And is chairman of a Conservative (with a big C)  think-tank.

And he spins his wheels to smear Corbyn?  Quelle bleedin' surprise!  

Next we'll be hearing revelations that Polly Toynbee thinks an argument could be made that Cameron wasn't the greatest PM in history, or that Rod Liddle had some opinion on something or other that wound someone up.

The people's flag is palest pink
It's not the colour you might think
White collar workers stand and cheer
The Labour government is here

We'll change the country bit by bit
So nobody will notice it
And just to show that we're sincere
We'll sing The Red Flag once a year

The cloth cap and the woolen scarf
Are images outdated
For we're the party's avant garde
And we are educated

So raise the rolled umbrella high
The college scarf, the old school tie
And just to show that we're sincere
We'll sing The Red Flag once a year

Political ideology will always affect how a party in power approaches the NHS, as with other policy issues.  But my sense is that while there is a variety of views among the electorate about public v private sector solutions to things like rail, water etc, I don't detect the same degree of divergence on health.  I've yet to meet anyone who thinks more of the NHS should be privatised, even if they have health insurance and can go private for some treatments. 

thebigfredc posted:

The Assad regime in Syria had given Obama's platitudes a good ignoring and continued to use poison gas in its civil war, sometimes against the civil population, until Trump came in as president and used 50 or so cruise missiles on Assad's Air Bases.

And what, pray tell, did 50 cruise missiles achieve in putting an end to the Syrian problems?

Huge posted:

The people's flag is palest pink
It's not the colour you might think
White collar workers stand and cheer
The Labour government is here

We'll change the country bit by bit
So nobody will notice it
And just to show that we're sincere
We'll sing The Red Flag once a year

The cloth cap and the woolen scarf
Are images outdated
For we're the party's avant garde
And we are educated

So raise the rolled umbrella high
The college scarf, the old school tie
And just to show that we're sincere
We'll sing The Red Flag once a year

Time for a re-run of 70s sitcom Citizen Smith...

Eloise posted:
thebigfredc posted:

The Assad regime in Syria had given Obama's platitudes a good ignoring and continued to use poison gas in its civil war, sometimes against the civil population, until Trump came in as president and used 50 or so cruise missiles on Assad's Air Bases.

And what, pray tell, did 50 cruise missiles achieve in putting an end to the Syrian problems?

As far as I know they have not used chemical weapons on the general population since.

thebigfredc posted:
Eloise posted:
thebigfredc posted:

The Assad regime in Syria had given Obama's platitudes a good ignoring and continued to use poison gas in its civil war, sometimes against the civil population, until Trump came in as president and used 50 or so cruise missiles on Assad's Air Bases.

And what, pray tell, did 50 cruise missiles achieve in putting an end to the Syrian problems?

As far as I know they have not used chemical weapons on the general population since.

Apart from using chlorine gas last week.

Huge posted:
thebigfredc posted:
Eloise posted:
thebigfredc posted:

The Assad regime in Syria had given Obama's platitudes a good ignoring and continued to use poison gas in its civil war, sometimes against the civil population, until Trump came in as president and used 50 or so cruise missiles on Assad's Air Bases.

And what, pray tell, did 50 cruise missiles achieve in putting an end to the Syrian problems?

As far as I know they have not used chemical weapons on the general population since.

Apart from using chlorine gas last week.

I thought that was American chicken?

thebigfredc posted:

As far as I know they have not used chemical weapons on the general population since.

https://www.washingtonpost.com...m_term=.3ddff1678e1f On the 23rd January.

And while not chemical in nature... https://www.washingtonpost.com...m_term=.6e5184faa261 ...with Amnesty International saying “flagrant war crimes” were being committed in eastern Ghouta on an “epic scale.”

It’s all quite ridiculous.  Of course Jeremy Corbyn fraternised with folks from the Communist Block but to suggest he was able to leak sensitive information is absurd.  And dialogue was always recommended.  Even Mrs T sat down with Gorbachev. He (Corbyn) could though do himself a big favour and explain the purpose of the meeting and his recollection just for the record.  

And then of course there is the daftest claim of the lot by this guy from Prague - he seems to have several identities!  - that he was behind Live Aid.  

Must go and smell the coffee

Am I missing something?

Presumably the claimed spy didn’t introduce himself to Corbyn as “a Soviet spy”. The soviets are pretty good at spying, I’d guess the first page of the KGB training manual advises, “Don’t let anybody know you’re a spy”.

 

The Strat (Fender) posted:

It’s all quite ridiculous.  Of course Jeremy Corbyn fraternised with folks from the Communist Block but to suggest he was able to leak sensitive information is absurd. 

https://www.theguardian.com/po...intelligence-experts

That article also references Darren G Lilleker, associate professor at Bournemouth University - author of the 2004 book Against The Cold War: The History and Political Traditions of Pro-Sovietism in the British Labour Party, 1945-1989.  He states that Corbyn was never sympathetic to the Soviet Union that “He was against both sides, the US and the Soviet Union, seeing them both as a danger to world peace.”

The Strat (Fender) posted:

It’s all quite ridiculous.  Of course Jeremy Corbyn fraternised with folks from the Communist Block but to suggest he was able to leak sensitive information is absurd.  And dialogue was always recommended.  Even Mrs T sat down with Gorbachev. He (Corbyn) could though do himself a big favour and explain the purpose of the meeting and his recollection just for the record.  

And then of course there is the daftest claim of the lot by this guy from Prague - he seems to have several identities!  - that he was behind Live Aid.  

Must go and smell the coffee

I agree. And as a back-bencher on the Opposition benches what sensitive information would he have had access to anyway?  

Huge posted:
thebigfredc posted:
Eloise posted:
thebigfredc posted:

The Assad regime in Syria had given Obama's platitudes a good ignoring and continued to use poison gas in its civil war, sometimes against the civil population, until Trump came in as president and used 50 or so cruise missiles on Assad's Air Bases.

And what, pray tell, did 50 cruise missiles achieve in putting an end to the Syrian problems?

As far as I know they have not used chemical weapons on the general population since.

Apart from using chlorine gas last week.

Huge you are well informed, abreast of  current affairs.

These are the first confirmed use of such deplorable weapons since the intervention by the US with Tomahawks last April. Let's see what Trump does next but my hunch is he will not be sitting on his hands.

Eloise posted:
thebigfredc posted:

I don't remember them (the Labour Party) singing it much when Tony Blair was leader. Bit disrespectful really as its their founding anthem.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/462871.stm

thebigfredc posted:

Although line 3 of the chorus is perfect for Pacificst/collaborator Jezza:

'though cowards and traitors sneer'

Rather Pacifism than War Mongering.

And your rather quoting the 3rd line out of context... given it’s talking about those coward against or traitors to Socialism...

Going back to your original subject though ... given the demands for transparency from May following the claims by Jan Sarkocy, shouldn’t we know if he is being paid for his interviews with the Sun and the Mail?  Apparently though thanks to Mr Corbyn the Czech intelligence service learned vital information such as what Margret Thatcher ate for breakfast.  And another little titbit ... Jan Sarkocy should be being hailed as hero of humanitarian aid given he launched Live Aid ( https://evolvepolitics.com/the...-launching-live-aid/ )

So you admit Corbyn collaberated with the enemy or are you saying he did but it was all very trivial because it was about Margaret Thatcher, and nobody likes her so its ok?

Likes (1)
The Strat (Fender)
×
×
×
×