Do you have your system on its own dedicated ring on the house electrical supply?

Adam Meredith posted:

I presume you've picked the bones out of - Search Results

I would presume he hasn't, that would take ages, and probably drive him insane.

Short answer - dedicated circuit, yes. Like most others, very worthwhile for me. Dedicated ring - no idea, I went with Naim's recommendation for UK users and just went with a radial.

You want a separate consumer unit with 50amp breakers. Split the meter tails with a Henley Block. Run a single 10mm squared cable to a good unswitched socket, or sockets. This applies to the U.K. only and whatever you do, get a properly qualified electrician. Splitting the 100 amp tails with the power still on is not something for an amateur. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

You want a separate consumer unit with 50amp breakers. Split the meter tails with a Henley Block. Run a single 10mm squared cable to a good unswitched socket, or sockets. This applies to the U.K. only and whatever you do, get a properly qualified electrician. Splitting the 100 amp tails with the power still on is not something for an amateur. 

Exactly what I did a year or so ago and it was an improvement - I also put Powerlines onto my XPS, SC and 250 (all DR's) which I also felt was a worthwhile further improvement. Only thing the new main didn't completely kill was transformer hum when SHMBO's hair dryer is used. Just shows how much electrical filth those things generate. Only seems to happen when she the heater is at full wack.

@Popeye if you are in the UK, give Naim support a call. They will be able to tell you what they recommend for your system. For me, they suggested a separate consumer unit with 32 Amp type C MCB, 10mm T&E cable, and unstitched sockets. That's what I used - no special 'audiophile' cable, sockets etc. 

Don't know if it's the same availability in UK, but in Canada I had my electrician install a lightning surge filter on my dedicated Audio circuit, at the panel. It's a separate box that is attached to the side of the panel. It wasn't expensive. You might want to ask..

When I rewired my house I ran a dedicared ring to the lounge, with multiple sockets in several strategic positions. When serious listening to music  there would not normally be anything else on in the room other than the hifi system. That was my compromise, and glad I didn’t run a dedicated spur because the positions I originally envisaged having everything needed a complete change once I set up and assessed the sound, the electronics ending up at the opposite corner of a 7m room. 

(I installed more dedicated circuits in the rest of the house than people normally have as well, to minimise effect of interferences between any area, and prevent unrelated things being cut off in event of a fault.)

He have a dedicated spur. The opportunity arose to install one when renovations were made to the house, and it seemed silly not to grasp it.

There is a ring main socket nearby, so it is easy to compere comparatively "clean" amps to comparatively "dirty" ones.

The difference is more than we expected. In the same order of magnitude as installing a Fraim. The presentation is cleaner. Simple yet more detailed than before. We considered it a worthwhile upgrade. In our case it didn't involve any disruption to the house because it was already in pieces.

ChrisSU posted:

@Popeye if you are in the UK, give Naim support a call. They will be able to tell you what they recommend for your system. For me, they suggested a separate consumer unit with 32 Amp type C MCB, 10mm T&E cable, and unstitched sockets. That's what I used - no special 'audiophile' cable, sockets etc. 

Had the Spark in today and the 10mm cable is in and all getting connected up next week the same as you Chris as this is what Naim recommended to me also.

Am I likely to hear a sound difference?

Popeye - 

You should hear a change - the extent of which will depend on how cluttered your mains was from things like household appliances (e.g. fridges and alike). Hopefully, detailing and bass will step up.

I would also suggest the tails closest to the incoming mains feed (in the splitter block) are wired to the hi-fi CU - i.e. to be done by the sparks. 

Depending upon your internal hi-fi wiring, you may wish to experiment with the order of kit plug ins. Some prefer putting the power amp 1st in the sequence/others the source I think.

It may also be beneficial to get a CU with spare capacity or wire-up some spare sockets for the upgraditis bug! i.e. get a larger CU at the outset?

In my experience, it's easier to get the spare capacity installed at the outset, than get a sparks to revisit (potential drilling/redecoration et al) - and the cost difference wasn't material in the overall scheme of things.

For years I have two dedicated spurs one for my Linn Radikal/LP12 and the other for my Naim amps from a dedicated Consumer Unit.

i have often wondered the difference in sound quality deploying a ‘ring’ rather than a ‘spur’ and what fundamentally is the difference in terms of electrical configuration and UK regulations.

Richard

 

FangfossFlyer posted:

 

i have often wondered the difference in sound quality deploying a ‘ring’ rather than a ‘spur’ and what fundamentally is the difference in terms of electrical configuration and UK regulations.

Richard

 

If you do a search for diydata.com electrical glossary, the terms are explained.

For regulations go to iet.org or hse.gov.uk electrical standards

FangfossFlyer posted:

For years I have two dedicated spurs one for my Linn Radikal/LP12 and the other for my Naim amps from a dedicated Consumer Unit.

i have often wondered the difference in sound quality deploying a ‘ring’ rather than a ‘spur’ and what fundamentally is the difference in terms of electrical configuration and UK regulations.

Richard

 

I was advised by my dealer to do the same - two spurs, one for digital power (Radikal) and second for Naim electronics. Standard cable used and unswtiched MK sockets.  The work was done during extensive remodelling of the downstairs of our house so couldn't do a before and after and comment on the improvement in SQ - but certainly not as much "clicking" as my previous arrangement in the other house when the fridge compressor was a constant pain.

Popeye posted:
ChrisSU posted:

@Popeye if you are in the UK, give Naim support a call. They will be able to tell you what they recommend for your system. For me, they suggested a separate consumer unit with 32 Amp type C MCB, 10mm T&E cable, and unstitched sockets. That's what I used - no special 'audiophile' cable, sockets etc. 

Had the Spark in today and the 10mm cable is in and all getting connected up next week the same as you Chris as this is what Naim recommended to me also.

Am I likely to hear a sound difference?

I'm fairly certain that this cleaned up the sound quite a lot for me. As others have mentioned, I installed the dedicated circuits as part of a major house refurb, so I never made a direct A/B comparison of before and after. The old circuit is still there, so maybe I'll try it one day!

I imagine the benefits would be greater in terms of isolation if your mains is polluted - our house is in a rural location with few neighbours and no commercial buildings nearby, so I would hope the incoming mains isn't too bad. I also try to keep gadgets and dodgy PSUs to a minimum, or so I thought until I started to investigate: it seems this might be easier said than done. See https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...34#73793444789439134 

I did have one specified when they were building the condominium. And they installed it. Only problem was they wired the dedicated ring to the wrong set of sockets and this came to light after it was behind grain matched wall panels, under a heated floor and under a long run of carefully grain matched marble tiles.

Estimated cost of fixing this blunder: $100K plus moving out of the apartment for several weeks. So I guess the answer to the OP is yeah, but no, but yeah kinda, but no. 

 

I am looking into this and have my electrician coming round this week to discuss. 

His initial view is that, using 10mm squared cable from a separate consumer unit with 50amp breakers, he’d only be able to have one twin socket on the end and not two.

He could wire 2 x4mm as a ring and have a two dedicated sockets. He said that this would be the equivalent of an 8mm direct supply.

Today I power my 272 via XPSDR and my 250DR from a twin socket using Powerlines. 

I also use a Powerline lite to a wireworld matrix 2 block from which I connect my Rega Aria, Rega TTPS, my Cisco 2960 switch and my UnitiServe.

Question - should I go for the single dedicated double socket on a 10mm direct supply and have the 250 and XPS as the only components benefitting from it with the other components essentially on the main mains circuit as they are today or have two double sockets but with a 8mm dedicated supply with everything on that same supply?

many thanks

David

S3 posted:

I am looking into this and have my electrician coming round this week to discuss. 

His initial view is that, using 10mm squared cable from a separate consumer unit with 50amp breakers, he’d only be able to have one twin socket on the end and not two.

He could wire 2 x4mm as a ring and have a two dedicated sockets. He said that this would be the equivalent of an 8mm direct supply.

Today I power my 272 via XPSDR and my 250DR from a twin socket using Powerlines. 

I also use a Powerline lite to a wireworld matrix 2 block from which I connect my Rega Aria, Rega TTPS, my Cisco 2960 switch and my UnitiServe.

Question - should I go for the single dedicated double socket on a 10mm direct supply and have the 250 and XPS as the only components benefitting from it with the other components essentially on the main mains circuit as they are today or have two double sockets but with a 8mm dedicated supply with everything on that same supply?

many thanks

David

David - I don't follow this, as you can (obviously) have several circuits wired from the CU (as you do for the house) i.e. whether these be rings or radials (former means 2 cables instead of one in the CU's breakers so as to complete the wiring 'loop').

10mm cabling (electric cooker cable by another parlance) is very challenging to bend and make in to a ring circuit as the terminals in the sockets and at the CU(?) aren't big enough to accept 2 x 10mm cables  - i.e. you should be able to have several 10mm radial sockets from the same CU. 

Richard's question is topical for me (& you?) as I have a 6 circuit 'h-fi' CU (I think sparks call them gangs - spelling?), with 6 x 10mm radials - with dedicated earthing (all done by a sparks). A dealer suggested I might be better off using 1 for my Naim kit with a star-earthed distribution block - within which I assume the feeds would be tapped off a single point in the block, so no bit of kit would have 'priority', as is currently the case with the bus bar in the CU.

FangfossFlyer posted:

Any comments on having a separate spur for each Naim box compared to having just one Spur that is used for all Naim boxes?

Richard

I had three 10mm spurs put in - one for the power amp, one for the pre, one for my main source (was CD555, now Dave). Some folks have a separate Consumer Unit for their spurs, but as I’d inherited separate CUs for the kitchen and the rest of the house I thought I’d pushed my domestic luck as far as it would go...

I did once try fitting two 10mm cables into the same connection on an MK socket, and it was a challenge, but it can be done. Discussing this with my electrician, he suggested splitting the cable with a Henley block under the floorboards, and running the feeds to the two double sockets from there. The Henley block is designed to take 10mm cable, and it was easier to make nice tight connections  with it.

Most small consumer units used for this purpose have more than one way available, so if you can run two cables from there, maybe that would be better. I have two 10mm radials from mine, but they supply two different rooms. 

S3 posted:

Has anyone used something called SY cable for this? My electrician said it would be perfect for the job; screened and fine stranded with a 10mm earth cable inside it.

I’ve seen SY cable rebranded as an ‘audiophile’ mains cable at a vastly increased price in the past, so somebody must think it’s worth trying. 

My electrician just popped round to take a look. We discussed options and he will quote for a new MK consumer unit with a 10mm feed up the outside side wall of the house to the loft where my listening room is. From there he’ll connect the cable up to a Henly block from where he can run two further 10mm cables to two unswitched MK double sockets. I’ll get a quote for the standard 10mm cable and for the SY cable too.

FangfossFlyer posted:

Any comments on having a separate spur for each Naim box compared to having just one Spur that is used for all Naim boxes?

Richard

I recall that a local hi-fi dealer tried using NAPS1s on separate spurs and it wasn't a success, but then my memory is less reliable than a very leaky watering can.

Quote received. It’s £50 more to have this done with “SY cable” verses the “standard” 10mm cable.

Should I opt for this SY cable or stick with the standard? 

I guess it can’t do any harm going with the SY but I’m also conscious that no one here (that I’m aware of) has used it so may be safer to stick with the standard.

Regards

David

S3 posted:

Quote received. It’s £50 more to have this done with “SY cable” verses the “standard” 10mm cable.

Should I opt for this SY cable or stick with the standard? 

I guess it can’t do any harm going with the SY but I’m also conscious that no one here (that I’m aware of) has used it so may be safer to stick with the standard.

Regards

David

 

I assume the SY cable is two core plus earth, but what size is it?

Just thinking aloud; but if it's 6mm² it will have the advantage of daisy chaining an additional unswitched double socket or two, and also the screening which in theory could trump ordinary 10mm². 

Debs

S3 posted:

Quote received. It’s £50 more to have this done with “SY cable” verses the “standard” 10mm cable.

Should I opt for this SY cable or stick with the standard? 

I guess it can’t do any harm going with the SY but I’m also conscious that no one here (that I’m aware of) has used it so may be safer to stick with the standard.

Regards

David

Out of interest, how much was your quote, David ?

Just had mine done yesterday, 10mm radial on own consumer unit with 32a type C exactly as recommended by Naim. £200 all fitted and certified.

Decorating at the moment so yet to see if I hear a difference. Electrician said my supply was very good and had a fantastic earth reading and had and extremely steady 50htz supply.

Hi Debs - yes it’s a two core plus 10mm earth which I understand is larger than the standard 10mm cable so may have advantages or may not. The cable will go into a Henly block and from there will feed two double sockets. 

Hi James - my quote is more than Popeye’s but it’s a fairly involved job with 14m high ladder work and then running cables under the house to the new consumer unit etc.

Regards

David

S3 posted:

Quote received. It’s £50 more to have this done with “SY cable” verses the “standard” 10mm cable.

Should I opt for this SY cable or stick with the standard? 

I guess it can’t do any harm going with the SY but I’m also conscious that no one here (that I’m aware of) has used it so may be safer to stick with the standard.

Regards

David

David,

I have 4mm SY running in conduit round the outside to its entry point behind the right hand of my brawn brain stack. It was put in before I joined the forum on the recommendation of an electrical contractor known to my dealer. I have a block of 5 daisy chained unswitched Crabtree double sockets. No Henley block because the electrician said it would require isolation back at the meter box, and no dedicated CU for that reason. 

No point me dwelling on whether I should have used 10mm etc. The system sounds really good, and I haven’t had the problems another member (Mark?) had with the 10mm. I experimented with the order I plug the boxes in. The Power Supplies are nearest the entry and the sources furthest away. I didn’t like Powerlines, although I have PL Lites on the SuperCap DR and NAPSC.

Like Popeye the electrician said my earth was incredible low impedance.

Phil

Chaps - another quick question. I’ve (finally) got an electrician coming to quote on Friday. I’m going the separate CU, single 10mm radial to a un-switched double socket route - simple enough. For the separate CU, did you have it fitted with just a double pole isolator and MCB (no RCD) and if so, did you have the socket(s) labelled to indicate they were non RCD protected ?

James

 

 

james n posted:

Chaps - another quick question. I’ve (finally) got an electrician coming to quote on Friday. I’m going the separate CU, single 10mm radial to a un-switched double socket route - simple enough. For the separate CU, did you have it fitted with just a double pole isolator and MCB (no RCD) and if so, did you have the socket(s) labelled to indicate they were non RCD protected ?

James, I bought a small MK consumer unit. It’s a 4-way, with a DP switch that takes up 2, leaving 2 free ways. I put 2 MCBs in these as I was putting 2 radials in different rooms. Ask him to fit Type C MCBs - he may well say that you should label the sockets to comply with the regs. 

Popeye, thank you for starting this thread. My spur was installed about fifteen years ago, with what I’ve always called a ‘50 amp breaker’. With all this talk of type B, type C, RCD and MCB I convinced myself I probably had the wrong thing. I finally plucked up courage to take a look earlier, and what do you know, it’s a type C. Hurrah. In my research I’ve also discovered that they types refer to how easily they blow, and that the mysterious MCB is simply the acronym for miniature circuit breaker. Now I can advise others to use a Type C MCB, rather than just a ‘breaker’. 

When the second consumer unit was installed, its Earth was connected back to the main house consumer unit. When that was replaced a couple of years ago I asked for the earth from the hifi consumer unit to be taken back directly to the meter rather than going via the other consumer unit or the Henley block. It seemed to make the backgrounds a bit blacker and quieter, but I may be deluding myself. Anyway, it’s worth doing, if only for peace of mind. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

I’ve not done that in all those fifteen years, though I see why it’s a good idea. Presumably one would turn the system off first? 

Yes, close down in the normal orderly fashion - if the test works as it should the power to the circuit should be cut just like throwing the master switch. And if it doesn’t work it needs replacing!

Happy Listener posted:

Also worth pointing out that you should test these 'breakers' (as HH defines) at least every 12m i.e. press the test button and then reset them - ideally more frequently.

MCBs don't have a test button - are you thinking of RCDs? Naim suggest that you avoid the use of RCDs where local regulations permit.

Hungryhalibut posted:

With all this talk of type B, type C, RCD and MCB I convinced myself I probably had the wrong thing. I finally plucked up courage to take a look earlier, and what do you know, it’s a type C. Hurrah. In my research I’ve also discovered that they types refer to how easily they blow, and that the mysterious MCB is simply the acronym for miniature circuit breaker. Now I can advise others to use a Type C MCB, rather than just a ‘breaker’. 

I started going on about using Type C MCBs on these threads after Steve Hopkins recommended it to me last year. Since putting them on my dedicated mains, it hasn't tripped once, whereas on my old supply, switching the power amp would trip the Type B  MCB more often than not.

Well the Electrician didn't think i was totally bonkers. Once i showed him the schematic i'd drawn up and explained why i wanted a double socket connected to a dedicate CU by a cable more usually found feeding a power shower or cooker, just to power some hi-fi kit he understood.... Apart from the non RCD request (wants to re-check the regs due to liability) his only other concern was the depth of the back box needed to form the 10mm ends into the socket - he's going to quote for 6mm run and a 10mm and let me decide. 6mm should be more than adequate given that it'll be a maximum of 3 pieces of equipment likely to run off this new socket but i'll see what he comes back with and then decide. 

James

 

Hungryhalibut posted:

Go for the 10mm, even if he pushes you towards the 6. 

With 10mm do you just have a single socket (or double socket anyway) I’m trying to imagine getting two 10mm cables into the terminals of a 13amp wall plug and seems an impossible ask...

The deepest back box you can get is 47mm, and it's easier to work with 6mm, but an electrician will be used to working with 10mm, or even 16mm, for cookers and showers, so it shouldn't really be a problem. If you want to instal more than one double socket, it gets more difficult. It's not impossible to get two pairs of 10mm T&E into a socket in order to do this, but it is really quite awkward. My electrician suggested, as an alternative, to split the 10mm into two at a Henley block just before the sockets, as Popeye mentions above, and this has worked well for me. 

The advantage of the Henly Block is that it is designed to take heavier cables, and they can be inserted and tightened with ease, whereas a socket is really only intended for use with 2.5mm cables. The block does mean a break in the continuous copper cable compared to a direct connection to one double socket, but if you need more than one double, perhaps it's better to have the break here than at the first of two sockets. 

S3 posted:

That’s exactly what I’m having done. 10mm SY cable to a Henly box and then three double MK unswitched sockets from there. I’m told it is exactly the same as having 10mm cable straight to the socket.

For those who have not seen all the thread, it has an earth of a similar diameter. Other tips about having a really good earth apply. It may be worth checking the earth on the existing system before the work starts. 

Phil

Matty.s posted:

Yet again the picture issue arises.I was hoping the pictures would be embedded in the thread not just the links.Not sure what I have done.

Matty

Right click on the image, select 'copy image location'.

Click the mountain (insert/edit image) icon, paste the image location info. into 'source', click OK.

 

Alba1320 posted:
Matty.s posted:

Yet again the picture issue arises.I was hoping the pictures would be embedded in the thread not just the links.Not sure what I have done.

Matty

Right click on the image, select 'copy image location'.

Click the mountain (insert/edit image) icon, paste the image location info. into 'source', click OK.

 

Maybe because I'm using my iPhone but I have no mountain option.I have done this successfully before but i can't remember what I done.Help was also needed then.

Thanks

Matty.s posted:
Alba1320 posted:
Matty.s posted:

Yet again the picture issue arises.I was hoping the pictures would be embedded in the thread not just the links.Not sure what I have done.

Matty

Right click on the image, select 'copy image location'.

Click the mountain (insert/edit image) icon, paste the image location info. into 'source', click OK.

Maybe because I'm using my iPhone but I have no mountain option.I have done this successfully before but i can't remember what I done.Help was also needed then.

Thanks

I don't know anything about IPhones, I'm afraid, but, for me, It's in the row of icons at the top of where you post your message, 4th one after 'B'.

Matty.s posted:

Maybe because I'm using my iPhone but I have no mountain option.I have done this successfully before but i can't remember what I done.Help was also needed then.

It's only visible in landscape view, turn your phone sideways and it will magically appear!

ChrisSU posted:
Matty.s posted:

Maybe because I'm using my iPhone but I have no mountain option.I have done this successfully before but i can't remember what I done.Help was also needed then.

It's only visible in landscape view, turn your phone sideways and it will magically appear!

ChrisSU,

thanks for the suggestion but the option still doesn't show on my iphone (5se).I can see the options on my iPad so I must of used that when I posted pictures in the system pics thread.Next time I will use the iPad and hopefully that will work.

Matty

I thought it would be the IOS not the screen size - however having checked my phone and iPad that are running the same version (11.2.2) that is not the case and coearly something different. Mine is also an iPhone 5, and on that if you rotate to landscape vie you get an enlarged image, not more options. Anif you scroll up a bit  you simply do not get the menu bar at the top of the post entry box that you do on the iPad - you just see the preceeding post above it. I suspect HhopLa has different view versions, detecting the type of device, phones deemed to be more limiting in space and so getting the phone version. I wonder if the iPhone 6m with its larger screen, is detected as a tablet rather than a phone. (Need to find some other software with different phone and tablet versions to confirm this).

Either was, the menu bar with the mountain is not visible on the iPhone 5, though whether there is a way to make it pop up I don’t know.

By the way, the post process described (using iPhone or computer with the mountain button visible) does not work every time: last time I tried it took about half a dozen attempts before it worked. It is so frustrating that I don’t bother with pictures unless essential to convey what I want.

S3 posted:

That’s exactly what I’m having done. 10mm SY cable to a Henly box and then three double MK unswitched sockets from there. I’m told it is exactly the same as having 10mm cable straight to the socket.

Would there be any advantage to soldering the joints within the henly block prior to screwing  down on to the cables.

Matty

My electrician came this morning to do the work. All went to plan and I’m now settling down to listen. With three new unswitched MK sockets in position I took the opportunity to rebuild the system further down the wall towards the speakers and away from in front of the radiator. 

First impressions are positive. Everything seems more natural and coherent. Interestingly I’m getting more detail at lower volumes that I was used to previously. 

I’ll report more once the system has warmed up properly and I’ll post some pics of the work and the SY cable that was used.

Regards

David

James,

I too was surprised at the cost. However, having seen the work involved - 3 men for 4 hours including high ladder work and routing cable under the house and through tight eves spaces plus the materials all of which were top quality - I'm comfortable that it was appropriate and reasonable especially now I'm enjoying the uplift in performance which I think will continue to improve as the cable burns in. When you think of how much one spends on black boxes or cables to get, sometimes negligible, performance uplifts it's really a no brainer and I'm pleased I did it.

Of course, your scenario may be much more straightforward but if you want to compare prices (if only for peace of mind) then let me know.

Regards

David 

That's a very neat job they've done, David. Glad you are pleased with both the quality of the work and more importantly, the final result. My installation is going to be simpler. The cable run is long (25m) but the route is straight forward so costs should be a lot more reasonable. I've got another chap coming in the next few days so i'll see what he comes up with 

James

 

S3 posted:

James,

I too was surprised at the cost. However, having seen the work involved - 3 men for 4 hours including high ladder work and routing cable under the house and through tight eves spaces plus the materials all of which were top quality - I'm comfortable that it was appropriate and reasonable especially now I'm enjoying the uplift in performance which I think will continue to improve as the cable burns in. When you think of how much one spends on black boxes or cables to get, sometimes negligible, performance uplifts it's really a no brainer and I'm pleased I did it.

Of course, your scenario may be much more straightforward but if you want to compare prices (if only for peace of mind) then let me know.

Regards

David 

Great to hear that you’re pleased with the results, David. The cable itself looks top-notch and I totally agree that it’s a must do upgrade, whatever the system.

Just to “warn” you, the burn-in process can be a bit of a pig, with ups and downs over a period of weeks. Best to leave some sounds running on loop 24/7. 

S3 posted:
Popeye posted:
S3 posted:

Popeye - does it sound any different?

Marginally better, as if the noise floor is slightly less but it's not much.

 

Popeye - how’s it sounding now; any improvement?

Yes definitely an improvement and an improved noise floor. One thing I am finding tho is a rather metallic sound from some tracks in vioces. I certainly didn't notice this before. Any thoughts?

Had another Electrician in today. This one understood exactly what i wanted and how i wanted it done and why i was doing it. He's happy using 10mm T&E and having the radial non RCD protected (with labelled socket - all to the regs) and came out with the right price. He's booked in for the 22nd so i'm looking forward to finally getting this done.

Thanks again for all the help. Very useful indeed. 

James

 

james n posted:

Had another Electrician in today. This one understood exactly what i wanted and how i wanted it done and why i was doing it. He's happy using 10mm T&E and having the radial non RCD protected (with labelled socket - all to the regs) and came out with the right price. He's booked in for the 22nd so i'm looking forward to finally getting this done.

Thanks again for all the help. Very useful indeed. 

James

 

Excellent James. Very pleased to hear it. 

When I had my extension built the wiring was on a ring main with its own circuit using 6mm cable. I plugged up my system expecting to hear a noticeable difference but there was none! I then realised that I should have asked for a radial circuit. So one day when my brother came to visit, I expressed my disappointment about not having the wiring done correctly and he turned around to me and said, if you unchain those two sockets you'll end up with two radial circuits. I thought this was outrageous at first but when he talked me through the logic it all made sense. So we went ahead and disconnected the chain. Low and behold there was no difference in sound quality! He asked me why I went to all the trouble of having a dedicated circuit instead of extending the ring main? I explained that for some people it improves the sound quality. He laughed. He laughed so hard I began to laugh. I was wondering why he found it so funny. He said to me, do you realise that you are sharing power with all your neighbours on this street? They are drawing from the same source and you cannot control how much electricity they are using. Having that dedicated circuit is not going to make a sodding difference. It's all in your head. He was right. I couldn't hear any difference. It's a pity because I would have loved for it to have made a difference. Lucky for some.

Minh Nguyen posted:

When I had my extension built the wiring was on a ring main with its own circuit using 6mm cable. I plugged up my system expecting to hear a noticeable difference but there was none! I then realised that I should have asked for a radial circuit. So one day when my brother came to visit, I expressed my disappointment about not having the wiring done correctly and he turned around to me and said, if you unchain those two sockets you'll end up with two radial circuits. I thought this was outrageous at first but when he talked me through the logic it all made sense. So we went ahead and disconnected the chain. Low and behold there was no difference in sound quality! He asked me why I went to all the trouble of having a dedicated circuit instead of extending the ring main? I explained that for some people it improves the sound quality. He laughed. He laughed so hard I began to laugh. I was wondering why he found it so funny. He said to me, do you realise that you are sharing power with all your neighbours on this street? They are drawing from the same source and you cannot control how much electricity they are using. Having that dedicated circuit is not going to make a sodding difference. It's all in your head. He was right. I couldn't hear any difference. It's a pity because I would have loved for it to have made a difference. Lucky for some.

Hearing how my system is improving day by day since having my dedicated mains installed I’m going to have to politely disagree with your brother!

S3 posted:
Minh Nguyen posted:

When I had my extension built the wiring was on a ring main with its own circuit using 6mm cable. I plugged up my system expecting to hear a noticeable difference but there was none! I then realised that I should have asked for a radial circuit. So one day when my brother came to visit, I expressed my disappointment about not having the wiring done correctly and he turned around to me and said, if you unchain those two sockets you'll end up with two radial circuits. I thought this was outrageous at first but when he talked me through the logic it all made sense. So we went ahead and disconnected the chain. Low and behold there was no difference in sound quality! He asked me why I went to all the trouble of having a dedicated circuit instead of extending the ring main? I explained that for some people it improves the sound quality. He laughed. He laughed so hard I began to laugh. I was wondering why he found it so funny. He said to me, do you realise that you are sharing power with all your neighbours on this street? They are drawing from the same source and you cannot control how much electricity they are using. Having that dedicated circuit is not going to make a sodding difference. It's all in your head. He was right. I couldn't hear any difference. It's a pity because I would have loved for it to have made a difference. Lucky for some.

Hearing how my system is improving day by day since having my dedicated mains installed I’m going to have to politely disagree with your brother!

My brother once said to me having something 'new' can influence our perception: wait until the honeymoon period is over and you will come to your senses. He isn't always right though. Just his humble opinion.

Minh Nguyen posted:

When I had my extension built the wiring was on a ring main with its own circuit using 6mm cable. I plugged up my system expecting to hear a noticeable difference but there was none! I then realised that I should have asked for a radial circuit. So one day when my brother came to visit, I expressed my disappointment about not having the wiring done correctly and he turned around to me and said, if you unchain those two sockets you'll end up with two radial circuits. I thought this was outrageous at first but when he talked me through the logic it all made sense. So we went ahead and disconnected the chain. Low and behold there was no difference in sound quality! He asked me why I went to all the trouble of having a dedicated circuit instead of extending the ring main? I explained that for some people it improves the sound quality. He laughed. He laughed so hard I began to laugh. I was wondering why he found it so funny. He said to me, do you realise that you are sharing power with all your neighbours on this street? They are drawing from the same source and you cannot control how much electricity they are using. Having that dedicated circuit is not going to make a sodding difference. It's all in your head. He was right. I couldn't hear any difference. It's a pity because I would have loved for it to have made a difference. Lucky for some.

Essentially it all depends on how good your mains is, and susceptible your equipment is. With the same equipment it is just down to the mains supply, in your home: what else is on it, maybe how the cables run, and possibly the layout of the consumer unit.

If you have no sources of interference then adding a separate radial circuit may have nothing to improve.

And a separate radial circuit can do nothing about interference borne on the mains supply to the house.

in my view it makes most sense to start by disconnecting everything in the house except the hifi. If it sounds the same as when everything is running then it is unlikely that a specialist supply will make much difference. And of course ithe test of temporarily splitting the ring making two radial circuits with one ending at the critical weuipment is quite easy if you know what you’re doing  (or have a tame electrician available when just the hifi is connected, as described above, would verify whether the ring itself is causing any problem.

Innocent Bystander posted:
Minh Nguyen posted:

When I had my extension built the wiring was on a ring main with its own circuit using 6mm cable. I plugged up my system expecting to hear a noticeable difference but there was none! I then realised that I should have asked for a radial circuit. So one day when my brother came to visit, I expressed my disappointment about not having the wiring done correctly and he turned around to me and said, if you unchain those two sockets you'll end up with two radial circuits. I thought this was outrageous at first but when he talked me through the logic it all made sense. So we went ahead and disconnected the chain. Low and behold there was no difference in sound quality! He asked me why I went to all the trouble of having a dedicated circuit instead of extending the ring main? I explained that for some people it improves the sound quality. He laughed. He laughed so hard I began to laugh. I was wondering why he found it so funny. He said to me, do you realise that you are sharing power with all your neighbours on this street? They are drawing from the same source and you cannot control how much electricity they are using. Having that dedicated circuit is not going to make a sodding difference. It's all in your head. He was right. I couldn't hear any difference. It's a pity because I would have loved for it to have made a difference. Lucky for some.

Essentially it all depends on how good your mains is, and susceptible your equipment is. With the same equipment it is just down to the mains supply, in your home: what else is on it, maybe how the cables run, and possibly the layout of the consumer unit.

If you have no sources of interference then adding a separate radial circuit may have nothing to improve.

And a separate radial circuit can do nothing about interference borne on the mains supply to the house.

in my view it makes most sense to start by disconnecting everything in the house except the hifi. If it sounds the same as when everything is running then it is unlikely that a specialist supply will make much difference. And of course ithe test of temporarily splitting the ring making two radial circuits with one ending at the critical weuipment is quite easy if you know what you’re doing  (or have a tame electrician available when just the hifi is connected, as described above, would verify whether the ring itself is causing any problem.

I'd love to have one of those Tesla home battery solutions. A true dedicated supply to power my system. I'd assume this would be the holy grail of power sources? Correct me if I'm wrong: I don't have much engineering knowledge.

Innocent Bystander, I forgot to mention that my speakers used to 'pop' momentarily on occasion and I discovered that it was due to my fridge freezer 'powering' up. I had my dedicated mains fitted to try to circumvent this situation and it didn't provide any resolution. I ended up buying a new fridge freezer. I guess in my case a dedicated mains doesn't offer much benefit.

Minh, I share my water supply with my whole village. I have two taps, one with 3/8" bore pipe, the other with 3/4" bore pipe. Which one fills the bucket quicker?

My Naim only needs xx amps to function, so what's the point in making more amps available? Wrong question.

Given the conversation we had on Bitcoin, I'm not expecting much. 

count.d posted:

Minh, I share my water supply with my whole village. I have two taps, one with 3/8" bore pipe, the other with 3/4" bore pipe. Which one fills the bucket quicker?

My Naim only needs xx amps to function, so what's the point in making more amps available? Wrong question.

Given the conversation we had on Bitcoin, I'm not expecting much. 

Count.D, To be honest I'm finding it difficult to interpret what you've written. I don't know anything about fluid dynamics but I assume the larger bore pipe would fill the bucket faster? Or is it a trick question? They both take the same amount of time? However, if all of your neighbours were to run a bath at the same time, there may be the possibility that it would take longer for you to fill your bucket.

I'm completely lost as to the significance of what you're trying to express in the last two paragraphs. Please enlighten me.

Minh Nguyen posted:
count.d posted:

Minh, I share my water supply with my whole village. I have two taps, one with 3/8" bore pipe, the other with 3/4" bore pipe. Which one fills the bucket quicker?

My Naim only needs xx amps to function, so what's the point in making more amps available? Wrong question.

Given the conversation we had on Bitcoin, I'm not expecting much. 

Count.D, To be honest I'm finding it difficult to interpret what you've written. I don't know anything about fluid dynamics but I assume the larger bore pipe would fill the bucket faster? Or is it a trick question? They both take the same amount of time? However, if all of your neighbours were to run a bath at the same time, there may be the possibility that it would take longer for you to fill your bucket.

I'm completely lost as to the significance of what you're trying to express in the last two paragraphs. Please enlighten me.

I think he is trying to say that current delivery to the power amp will be quicker down a 10mm^2  cable compared to a smaller cable.

However, given that peak current for instantaneous music peaks is provided by the reservoir capacitors, and so does not need to be supplied anywhere near as fast by the mains supply, I am not convinced that such extreme cable sizes actually make a difference. 

The analogy is a water supply that in the premises uses a tank, so the size of pipe filling the tank is only of significance to the water user if the tank isn’t large enough and runs out before the demand is finished. (Pipes from the tank to whatever are then analagous to the cables bewteen power supply and amp.) 

Actually, thinking of that last point in the analogy, given the lower voltages in the output cables from the power supply to the amp compared to mains voltage,, the current they carry will be higher (inversely proportional). So even without reservoir capacitors the mains cableconductor size would only be a bottleneck to current flow if it is significantly smaller than the power supply to amp cable conductor size.

Its the low frequencies that are demanding of the current. Yes, the caps as designed to hold that current in reserve for when its needed and deliver that current instantly. I.e a bass drum in a piece of music, that instant kick pulls a lot of current. If you are listening to a complex piece with lots of fast quick low frequencies the caps cant be replenished quite quick enough and effects timing and your PRAT.

The larger the supply cable the more freely and easier it is for your system caps to be replenished. Obviously, this is more beneficial and helps if other products in your house are on and using current when you're listening to music.

Back to the water principle. The more taps you have running at one time the flow is reduced at the given outlets. If storing your water your tanks are the systems capacitors. If the main supply isn't big enough and lots of taps are running the mains cant fill the tank quick enough. (water main is your dedicated hifi supply).

 

popeye

I don‘t disagree with the principle and the analogy, but whether a beating bass drum - or, more likely, that combined with sustained loud passages from other instruments, particularly perhaps sustained high level bass notes - can deplete the capacitors sufficiently for the rate of replenishment through standard size mains cabling to be the limiting factor Restricting the amp’s peak capability or speed of response is something of which I am unconvinced except possibly in the most extreme circumstances (assuming that the power amp design is not woefully inadequate)

The mains provides an moderately stable alternating voltage (electric field) that delivers energy from the power stations to the electric components that want it. Aside from the reservoir capacitors compensating for very short term overloads, the energy supplied by the mains is in proportion to the energy coming out of the speaker plus a background level reflecting heat (energy) loss.

Energy is a complex notation to grapple with, but it is fundamental in physics because it is a conserved quality.  I doubt the electrons ever travel any great distance in the mains (unlike water) because the electric field is sinusoidal. Then consider how the crystal structure of metals and semiconductors is affected by physical conditions. Most notions of what is happening are approximations. Impossible to model.

Phil

Interesting analogies aside, my reason for (finally) getting my mains supply sorted was that it seemed the most sensible route to go to makes the most of my system. I'm happy with my kit so there's nowhere to go there (apart from a possible speaker change) and for a fairly modest (in Hi-Fi terms) amount of money i can give the system a dedicated supply. My system benefited a few years back when we redecorated and i took the opportunity to  remake all the connections on the lounge ring sockets. Getting as direct a route as i can between the Hi-Fi mains socket and the meter tails (and incoming earth) seems a sensible approach to me.

Source first etc 

James

 

james n posted:

Interesting analogies aside, my reason for (finally) getting my mains supply sorted was that it seemed the most sensible route to go to makes the most of my system. I'm happy with my kit so there's nowhere to go there (apart from a possible speaker change) and for a fairly modest (in Hi-Fi terms) amount of money i can give the system a dedicated supply. My system benefited a few years back when we redecorated and i took the opportunity to  remake all the connections on the lounge ring sockets. Getting as direct a route as i can between the Hi-Fi mains socket and the meter tails (and incoming earth) seems a sensible approach to me.

Source first etc 

James

 

If the mains distribution and connected items in your home cause a degradation of sound quality -or if you fear they might - then the separate supply can indeed be an effective solution, and in the scheme of things can be relatively inexpensive (depending of course on your home layout), so is an easily justifiable and reasonable thing to do, and one that will certainly have no detrimental effect on sound quality, while depending on circumstances it could be beneficial.

For the sake of clarity, my own contributions above related to the cable size used and nothing else, purely challenging the argument that was advanced for a need for very heavy cable. However, provided the fittings are capable of taking the cable gauge, and the electrician competent with it, there is certainly no detriment in over-specifying, and if the installation routing and budget allows, there is no reason why not, so one does not need to fret over whether or not lesser cable has a less beneficial effect, however valid or not the basis of the fretting. So those choosing to use 10mm^2 - or 2 inch busbars - need have no concern.

Nah - he's doing a sterling job. I had to have a surface mount box here due to an HDMI cable running up the wall at that point. Access on the external wall (where the cable heads up to the loft) would have been difficult with a recessed box as we'd have to go to the right to clear the HDMI cable. It all sits behind the racks so no issues with a box rather than recessed. 

FT, it depends of course where the DC offset is coming from and the nature of your other home wiring..if DC offset occurs on your phase between you and your high voltage step down transformer/sub station, as in my majority case , then having a separate radial will make no difference at all as far humming transformers.

Simon

Elkman - here you go :-

Note this is a UK installation, complies and has been certified to the latest regs.

In the meter cupboard, A Henley block splits the 25mm2 meter tails between the house consumer unit and the new Hi-Fi consumer unit. The incoming 16mm2 Earth cable is split here too. 

The meter sits on the other side of the wall from the consumer units in the garage. The new tails run through the wall and up the conduit into the new consumer unit. 

From the new consumer unit, a single 10mm2 T&E cable runs along the wall before heading up to the loft via a bedroom wardrobe. As the new radial is not RCD protected, the cable must be surface run to meet the regs which works fine for the installation cable route we decided on. 

A single 32A Type C MCB and Isolator switch. The Isolator switch should be 100A not the 63A fitted. The electrician is coming back to change it. 

As the lounge is on the opposite side of the house to the garage we needed an unbroken run of 25m T&E from the new consumer unit to the lounge. The cable runs up to and along the loft, exits the gable end wall and then makes the final drop down the wall inside conduit to the back of the new socket.

25m of cable later it terminates at a double un-switched socket, surface mounted to clear an existing HDMI cable chased into the wall for the TV. All i have left to do now is have the Isolator swapped to the correct rating (not that 63A is inadequate in anyway for this application) and get the engraved labels fitted for the lounge socket (stating it's for Hi-Fi use and not RCD Protected) and for the new consumer unit to show how this socket is isolated. 

Worth it ? definitely. For the price of a new Powerline, this has made a surprising difference to my enjoyment of the system. Greater clarity, the removal of some treble harshness which was noticeable on some albums and music has such a natural flow. Bass is tighter and deeper and an already very low noise floor is now even lower. Taking the system off the lounge ring and getting its supply (and Earth) as close to the incoming feed as possible has really benefited things more than i really expected. 

Thanks to all who have offered advice and guidance which made the process a lot simpler and finally made me get my arse into gear to get this done. My only regret is not doing it sooner ! 

 James

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

FT, ..., then having a separate radial will make no difference at all as far humming transformers.

Simon

Indeed Simon. The BPS, not the dedicated radial, is there to knock out the  “DC offset” and with it the transformer hum in the Naim boxes. The transformers did hum when powered off a dedicated radial; it was installing the BPS that cured the hum.

It worked a treat to for us, though may not always do so for others.

FT

Yes     [following BtB's concise reply].

I've not got a separate distribution box for the dedicated rings-main, though I know that is preferred. Mine has it's own RCD in the general distribution box.  I installed the dedicated rings-main myself some years back (before regs limited who could do such work) and I used specialist mains-cable from Russ Andrews which is meant to resist RFI.  I did it to avoid the clicks and plops I had experienced over some time as other things in the house turned on and off.  These have been eradicated completely. What I hadn't experienced was an uplift in sound quality. As James says, this is a very cost effective upgrade. On the downside, it can be messy and disruptive. I had the floorboards up in the under-stairs cupboard, hall and lounge for several days when I did mine.  

Hi everyone I would like to do this with my system. I got one quote so far for £1200 which seems a bit steep but it does include plastering a small wall and boarding/skimming a ceiling.   What is the recommended backplate for the sockets?  I could use metal ones buried in the plaster, flush mounted plastic or office style trunking

John Hoptroff posted:

Hi everyone I would like to do this with my system. I got one quote so far for £1200 which seems a bit steep but it does include plastering a small wall and boarding/skimming a ceiling.   What is the recommended backplate for the sockets?  I could use metal ones buried in the plaster, flush mounted plastic or office style trunking

That seems a bit expensive to me, but hard to judge without knowing exactly what is involved. For neatness, I would go for recessed metal back boxes and buried cables if possible, but I can’t see any reason why surface mounting wouldn’t work just as well. 

Yes it does make a difference and it is well worth doing if you have the opportunity. I had a separate 2.5mm twin and earth spur for a few years and it made the background cleaner and darker, improving all aspects of the music. 

I then had a kitchen refit and had a new distribution board installed with circuit breakers for the new kitchen appliances BUT kept the original fuse box solely for the hifi. As the kitchen ceiling was down I ran a 10mm spur from it to unswitched Crabtree sockets in the lounge. Initially my electrician provided a circuit breaker for the hifi board but it was an old one and the sound was not as good as I was expecting or knew it could be based on my previous experience. By the way my electrician who was very sceptical of the whole idea heard the system  when I played Hotel California live from Hell Freezes over and he was completely astounded at how good the whole thing sounded.   I later replaced the carrier holding the old circuit breaker and fitted a wired fuse and carrier which lifted the sound even further.

In my experience it is a thoroughly worthwhile upgrade as long as it can be easily achieved from a structural point of view AND provided it is done safely.

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