I am so sick of streaming....

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

IT understanding seems to have stepped backwards

You're absolutely right. My guess is that understanding has dropped as a result of increasing complexity. When I was in college you had a modem, that dialed up with a given baud rate. Pretty straightforward. Now you have cable vs fiber vs DSL going into a modem, then a router, some of which are wireless, some require a separate wireless hub. Many different ways of connecting and integrating. Many different protocols. Changing all the time. Who can keep up?

The really good companies, build products that overcome this complexity in a transparent way, so users will get the benefits of modern technology without needing a degree in electrical engineering. Apple comes to mind. They've built an entire company around ease of use. Airport, for example, is a wonderful product that combines router, wireless and tethered connections, and a hard-drive for automatic backups over WiFi. They're expensive, but you get what you pay for, and for people without the desire to learn all about technology, they just work.

Ultimately, I think it's the engineers job to build products that give the layperson access to high tech, without having to know about high tech. And that is a much more difficult job than building something that will work if you set it up just right. That philosophy made Apple the biggest company in the world, and Sonos the biggest company in wireless music streaming. The same philosophy is evident in Naim's Muso line. 

Hm, I am not so sure, I have spent all my adult life involved with IT starting in the mid eighties, with audio, video, digital TV, home STB tech, IP voice, contact centres and multi channel automation, hosted and web services, data networks and software analyzers, and I think things have got hugely simpler.. there has been a huge convergence of information technologies and less proprietary standards out there... and also we have the www which makes look up and reference infinitely easier than the late eighties and early 90s when one had to wade through massive lever arch folders and that was a real challenge keeping updated...

I think the challenge is with the mass consumerisation of home  IT product, and in the name of increased deployment simplicity and reduced costs many compromises are made, but these are not made clear to the consumer... and descriptions are over simplified and distorted with product marketing speak and indeed at one level this had made home IT products  more accessible but the down side is there a real lack of clarity on how devices are working and what methods they are using to work... hence denying more informed consumers to make proper value judgements and decisions and adding to consumer frustration when things are not working as expected..

 

perizoqui posted:

This is utter nonsense Huge. The 272 is a consumer device. It's patently absurd to expect buyers to become experts in network protocols in order to use it. No one at Naim would ever say this. Knock it off.

It’s the responsibility of the dealer selling you the device to help you install your streamer. Just like you would expect help with a vinyl system. That’s the whole point of the dealer network...

Stepping aside from some of the technicalities, I think the thing is that people buying hifi gear - of which Naim is a prime brand - want to get it home, plug it in and play music, without worrying about anything else. A significant proportion, possibly the vast majority, will have limited knowledge of networks, whether wired or wireless, and to me it is unreasonable of any hifi manufacturer to expect otherwise: that is more for computer audio enthusiasts. To express this in another way, what I believe most hifi afficionados want is a plug 'n' play hifi unit, which if they have either a wired or wireless network means they expect that part of the system to simply work whether or not they have ant technical expertise.

As I have suggested in other threads, I believe it is beholden on the hifi supplier offering gear that fundamentally relies on a network for satisfactorily operation to provide a service that includes provision and setup of a suitable and guaranteed functioning network, and advertise the same to all purchasers. (in the case of mail order or other remote purchase where a full service of nework installation cannot be offered, the requirement and potential should still be communicated. And I believe manufacturers should make clear in their promotional and setup material that satisfactory operation is crucially dependent upon a network that is suitable, with the strong indication that effective use of tne gear cannot be assured otherwise. 

Doing these simple things would help ensure satisfied customers, which after all is the desire of the customer, the dealer and the manufacturer.  So the real question is, why on earth are they not done, and how soon will that be remedied?

As an aside, given the perenial issues with networks as discussed on this forum, I don't understand why so many people seem to prefer network streamers solutions that combine at least the store and renderer, such as the Uniti Core.

Eloise posted:

It’s the responsibility of the dealer selling you the device to help you install your streamer. Just like you would expect help with a vinyl system. That’s the whole point of the dealer network...

Sounds really nice, but dealers are fewer and further between in the US than in the UK. My closest dealer is a one hour drive away, carries nothing in stock, and felt I should consider Mark Levinson when asked about Naim... that's why I ended up flying to the UK to get mine. Then again, once in the UK one dealer spent the whole afternoon trying to talk me into Devialet when I'd been in e-mail contact with him for weeks telling him I was interested in the 272 and either 250 or 300. He felt Devialet streaming was far ahead of the 272. I wouldn't know, and given that I didn't like the sound of Devialet at all, wouldn't care

Then there's the dealers who consider treating customers like idiots just for not being obsessive audiophiles/amateur engineers... you even find that attitude sometimes among forum posters... though this forum is by far the best I've ever spent time on in that regard.

Anyway, just saying your mileage may vary when it comes to dealers. Manufacturers must know that.

DrMark posted:
But nowhere in any Naim literature did it say that knowledge was needed to run it wireless.
 

Mark,

it's true, most streamers require some degree of fiddling -- except Sonos.

if you can find my Gmail address (have a look at my username) we can talk it over further.

--joe

Eloise posted:
perizoqui posted:

This is utter nonsense Huge. The 272 is a consumer device. It's patently absurd to expect buyers to become experts in network protocols in order to use it. No one at Naim would ever say this. Knock it off.

It’s the responsibility of the dealer selling you the device to help you install your streamer. Just like you would expect help with a vinyl system. That’s the whole point of the dealer network...

I agree, and not sure who is suggesting you need to be 'expert' in network protocols to use streamers... clearly that is absurd as you can't influence how the protocols are used. 

The only thing one can do is set up a more effective wifi network using consumer plug and play items if wifi is important to you and your current wifi just doesn't meet the grade... no different than optimising mains wiring or enabling a home broadband internet router Plugging two Ubiquiti APs into a switch and following a simple consumer setup guide is as hard as it need be .. yes a tiny bit of knowledge / reading is required in setting up, but to be fair you need the same to get the best out of FM radio or vinyl replay.. and I agree the dealer is there to provide this basic knowledge should you not want to do that yourself.

if I am honest even my Sonos required more fiddling to get UPnP working than my Naim streamers and so most things need a bit of experimenting/setting up...

perizoqui posted:
Eloise posted:

It’s the responsibility of the dealer selling you the device to help you install your streamer. Just like you would expect help with a vinyl system. That’s the whole point of the dealer network...

Sounds really nice, but dealers are fewer and further between in the US than in the UK. My closest dealer is a one hour drive away, carries nothing in stock, 

Anyway, just saying your mileage may vary when it comes to dealers. Manufacturers must know that.

You missed part of my comment though ... a streamer is no more complicated than setting up a vinyl system.  Yes the skill set is different but no more complicated.  Back in the days when vinyl was the primary source you either had to find an amenable dealer or spend time and effort learning to set your turntable up.

You also spoke about setting up a Raspberry PI... well that’s not general “consumer” knowledge either.  You spent time learning about Raspberry PI and DietPi software.  Well networking is no more complicated really ... just again a different skill set.

joe9407 posted:
DrMark posted:
But nowhere in any Naim literature did it say that knowledge was needed to run it wireless.
 

it's true, most streamers require some degree of fiddling -- except Sonos.

Actually I would suggest 95% or more streamers Naim sell haven’t needed any fiddling.  That’s why it’s so frustrating for people like DrMark who do have problems.  Sonos are different in that they set up their own mesh networking (they used to I assume they still do) that’s why they work... because they don’t use WiFi!

@DrMark out of interest have you contacted your dealer and asked for their advice?  If so what did they say?

Eloise posted:

Sonos are different in that they set up their own mesh networking (they used to I assume they still do) that’s why they work... because they don’t use WiFi!

Sonos can stream via WiFi; you just have to plug it into the mains and your system. no ethernet cables required (though as others have mentioned, wired is the most bulletproof way to use any streamer).

joe9407 posted:
Eloise posted:

Sonos are different in that they set up their own mesh networking (they used to I assume they still do) that’s why they work... because they don’t use WiFi!

Sonos can stream via WiFi; you just have to plug it into the mains and your system. no ethernet cables required (though as others have mentioned, wired is the most bulletproof way to use any streamer).

Since writing above I found that yes Sonos can use WiFi, but they also recommend that you use their own Wireless mesh system when WiFi isn’t reliable.  In other words they know there are limitations to WiFi.

Remember not all Wireless networking is WiFi!

wifi is just a user term for an 802.11 WLAN. Now SonusNet or Boost mode uses a proprietary interpretation of 802.11 protocols so they can reside together on the same spectrum as standardised 802.11 protocols... SonusNet also uses Ethernet based protocols such as Spanning tree, so effectively SonusNet or Boost mode is a proprietary Ethernet/WLAN hybrid... in many ways this doesn't lend itself to work with established and reliable existing home networks, and all  sorts of issues can ensue,  hence why it's optional, but is great for a green field location where there is minimum or no existing infrastructure.. I guess Sonus assumed many of its customers would only have very minimal and/or elementary home networks... and those that didn't would have no qualms in disabling the proprietary SonusNet... I guess this strategy has worked well for them..

 

I have some sympathy with the argument that setting up a 272 should be approached with a similar mindset as a turntable. Time, patience and possibly even dealer support may be required. Where that breaks down is with something like a Muso, It really should just plug and play wirelessly within a few minutes of arriving home from John Lewis or the Apple Store. 

I accept that many people don't have a robust network at home, but I've long believed that the root of many streamlining issues is the cobbbled together nature of UPnP. Here is what one of UPnP's critics has to say*:

1) UPnP requires codec support on the endpoint, therefore making different endpoints support a different subset of whats out there. This also puts a burden of patent licensing on the manufacturer.
2) UPnP has no good solution for streaming proprietary/unsupported/new formats
3) UPnP creates an ecosystem of lowest common denominator support
4) UPnP lacks "a brain", like the Roon or Sooloos Core, so it cant do intelligent things like Swim/Radio, normalization, crossfading intelligence, those pretty waveforms in the seek position, etc..
5) UPnP leads to a pretty foul experience. Spreadsheets and file management is not how music should be experienced. We haven't seen a good user experience with UPnP, ever. The HiFi dealers agree, and only put up with UPnP because they must. It was clear that UPnP was made by/for endpoint manufacturers, and not user experience creators. Our party line is that "UPnP leads to Twonky". You can put lipstick on that pig, but fundamentally, without a brain, you have Twonky like experience.

I have been a little too busy to keep up with Naim's progress with Roon, but I'd be very curious to see how UPnP compares to Roon on the same Naim streamer in terms of basic setup and reliability. 

*Source: Danny Dulai, COO/President Roon Labs. https://community.roonlabs.com...ong-with-upnp/2101/3

Amazing (this thread)..

It took me longer to plug in my network components togehther, than it took me to set up my streamers on the home network. The longest part, when setting a NAIM streamer, was punching in the WiFi code, shuld I ever need it.
And they just work since then.

The only failure I experienced on my LAN (streaming and not streaming related) was when one of the patch cables had a clipped wire, whcih reduced that port's speed by a magnitude of 10. 

My recipie: read what Naim, Linn etc recommend, implement it, plug in a streamer, a NAS and enjoy.

It would be a help if the products helped themselves. For example I should be able to point a web browser at my core on port 80 and see a status page of what core thinks is going on around the network. 

Or even more basic: put a USB stick in the socket, power up using a button press combination and get a text file written to the USB stick which details the settings

the lack of debug info in the new platform is woeful. It didn't even tell you to a log file if a rip was good or bad. Even hdx had that. 

defensive programming is not hard but has to be a mindset that permeates everything. 

GregW posted:

I accept that many people don't have a robust network at home, but I've long believed that the root of many streamlining issues is the cobbbled together nature of UPnP. Here is what one of UPnP's critics has to say*:

.....

*Source: Danny Dulai, COO/President Roon Labs. https://community.roonlabs.com...ong-with-upnp/2101/3

I cant help this is a bit of rant to justify a cause or a position. Sonus use UPnP protocols (note not DLNA ) to provide a system that is arguably highly usable,  easy to use and has been hugely successful.

With UPnP it down to the implementation on top of a defined set of web functions... if you cobble UPnP together you only have yourself to blame......

Eloise posted:

You missed part of my comment though ... a streamer is no more complicated than setting up a vinyl system.  Yes the skill set is different but no more complicated.  Back in the days when vinyl was the primary source you either had to find an amenable dealer or spend time and effort learning to set your turntable up.

You also spoke about setting up a Raspberry PI... well that’s not general “consumer” knowledge either.  You spent time learning about Raspberry PI and DietPi software.  Well networking is no more complicated really ... just again a different skill set.

Right and right again. Vinyl is fantastically complicated, but that's what folks sign up for when they go that route. Digital is turnkey, and given how long Airplay streaming has been around, folks expect consumer grade music streaming to work at least as well/robustly as Airplay. They should.

As for the Raspberry, you're right, it's not turnkey. But it might solve the OP's wireless issues. My realization that it was less straightforward than my initial post with instructions might imply (depending on one's competence with Linux), was what led me to offer to do it for him. But certainly, networking is no more complicated, probably less complicated.

GregW posted:

 

I have been a little too busy to keep up with Naim's progress with Roon, but I'd be very curious to see how UPnP compares to Roon on the same Naim streamer in terms of basic setup and reliability. 

From what I've read Roon, specifically RAAT (the part of Roon that replaces UPnP) is far more advanced. The Roon knowledge base will give you details. I'd provide the link but that's not allowed. Certainly works flawlessly since I started using it. Gone are the days of rebooting my UPnP control point ten times a day. Add in advanced software DSP, room correction, and a spectacular user interface...

Honestly, I put Roon off for two years because I thought the price was outrageous. Now I wish I'd done it sooner. Totally worth it. Free trial, so I can't recommend trying it enough! Actually, it's probably good I waited since I've heard the current release (1.3) is far ahead of prior releases. For classical music especially (99% of my listening) it's just light-years ahead of everything. Tidal integration is amazing too. Not that they have it, rather how they've done it.

Kind of like this thread: it's not that you have wireless streaming, but how you implement it that determines whether it delivers on expectations, or gets unplugged in favor of an ethernet cable.

perizoqui posted:
GregW posted:

 

I have been a little too busy to keep up with Naim's progress with Roon, but I'd be very curious to see how UPnP compares to Roon on the same Naim streamer in terms of basic setup and reliability. 

From what I've read Roon, specifically RAAT (the part of Roon that replaces UPnP) is far more advanced. The Roon knowledge base will give you details. I'd provide the link but that's not allowed. Certainly works flawlessly since I started using it. Gone are the days of rebooting my UPnP control point ten times a day. Add in advanced software DSP, room correction, and a spectacular user interface...

Honestly, I put Roon off for two years because I thought the price was outrageous. Now I wish I'd done it sooner. Totally worth it. Free trial, so I can't recommend trying it enough! Actually, it's probably good I waited since I've heard the current release (1.3) is far ahead of prior releases. For classical music especially (99% of my listening) it's just light-years ahead of everything. Tidal integration is amazing too. Not that they have it, rather how they've done it.

Kind of like this thread: it's not that you have wireless streaming, but how you implement it that determines whether it delivers on expectations, or gets unplugged in favor of an ethernet cable.

Just to balance that, Roon is not perfect, and is not for everybody - I had a trial and decided it wasn't for me, alao with significant classical collection (I reported my conclusions two or three months ago on another thread). The comment about UPnP is interesting, as when I had a Naim streamer (ND5XS) I had used the free Serviio Apple app on a Mac Mini functioning as a NAS, with absolutely no problems, not having to reboot it in months, and before that I had used Logitech Media Server on a Zyxel NSA325 NAS, having to reboot periodically, as in maybe once a week.

Innocent Bystander posted:
...

As an aside, given the perenial issues with networks as discussed on this forum, I don't understand why so many people seem to prefer network streamers solutions that combine at least the store and renderer, such as the Uniti Core.

Because, as you pointed out, many people have a limited understanding of the options available and most dealers will anyway push customers towards building their streaming solutions around a NAS and a LAN streamer. They will do so, among others, because asking customers whether they are envisaging a single-room or a multi-room solution or whether a wired LAN infrastructure is available or not takes time. It also entails the risk of making unexperienced customers realize that they do not precisely know what they want and possibly feel uncomfortable or undecided. This is not a good strategy if you want to sell stuff. Better give unexperienced customers the impression that there is just one standard way of doing things and that they are about to learn it. In fact, I wonder how many Naim dealers still have Naim DACs and DAC V1s in stock these days ...

GregW posted:

<snip>

I accept that many people don't have a robust network at home, but I've long believed that the root of many streamlining issues is the cobbbled together nature of UPnP. Here is what one of UPnP's critics has to say*:

<snip>

*Source: Danny Dulai, COO/President Roon Labs. https://community.roonlabs.com...ong-with-upnp/2101/3

*Source: Danny Dulai, COO/President Roon Labs.

Hardly an unbiased source considering he's COO/President of an organisation that sells a competing proprietary system.

I have been incredibly busy this weekend, with job hunting, working my 3rd job, and all the other life maintenance that can only occur on weekends.

As for my Naim dealer - he is 3 hours away by car, so that is not really an option, and to further "complicate" things, I bought the 272/250DR on the second hand market, because I came across a great deal on them. ($7,700 USD delivered to my door..both units barely a year old when I got them...the guy had the NDXDR too, but I just could not swing it financially - had to sell all my prior Naim gear and a guitar to cover it).

I will try to get back to those who have reached out with contact info as time permits.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Just to balance that, Roon is not perfect, and is not for everybody - I had a trial and decided it wasn't for me, alao with significant classical collection (I reported my conclusions two or three months ago on another thread). The comment about UPnP is interesting, as when I had a Naim streamer (ND5XS) I had used the free Serviio Apple app on a Mac Mini functioning as a NAS, with absolutely no problems, not having to reboot it in months, and before that I had used Logitech Media Server on a Zyxel NSA325 NAS, having to reboot periodically, as in maybe once a week.

Interesting. Did you try it before 1.3? I'm told Roon is much better in every way, including classical with 1.3. What do you use now that you prefer and why? Always curious what else is out there...

perizoqui posted:
Innocent Bystander posted:

Just to balance that, Roon is not perfect, and is not for everybody - I had a trial and decided it wasn't for me, alao with significant classical collection (I reported my conclusions two or three months ago on another thread). The comment about UPnP is interesting, as when I had a Naim streamer (ND5XS) I had used the free Serviio Apple app on a Mac Mini functioning as a NAS, with absolutely no problems, not having to reboot it in months, and before that I had used Logitech Media Server on a Zyxel NSA325 NAS, having to reboot periodically, as in maybe once a week.

Interesting. Did you try it before 1.3? I'm told Roon is much better in every way, including classical with 1.3. What do you use now that you prefer and why? Always curious what else is out there...

I don't know what the version was - I started the trial earky in May this year.

I use Audirvana, primarily for its sound quality as a renderer (in direct mode, fully optimised). But I am not fully content with Audirvana's library handling, which struggles with less than perfect metadata, can't sort/browse by file structure (this being the approach I have previously found best for certain retrieval of classical in particular), and can't separate multiple versions of an album. These were reasons for my trying Roon having heard others rave about it, but Roon wasn't any better on the first two points (I can't actually remember how it did with multiple versions of an album). I live with Audirvana's library imperfections because of the sound quality - if/when I find something that matches it as a renderer with better library handling I'll happily change.

My summary of my impressions of Roon is here: https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...24#70272142658356624

I have until now been an analogue audio die hard with my Linn/Naim system.

I have been keeping one eye open to the possibilities of digital streaming but to date have been put off by the low audio quality, all the computerspeak tech jargon and the seemingly endless problems of users as evidenced by posts to these forums.

I am pretty much a computer Luddite but decided to have a dip into digital waters via a trial of Tidal HiFi via my Windows 10 laptop.

I bought a Meridian Explorer2 DAC mail order and with some apprehension set about installing it. This was surprisingly easy thanks to the excellent instruction provided by Meridian on how to download the required drivers and optimise sound settings. For a total numpty like me the whole set up took about 20 minutes and I have been listening all weekend without glitch to MQA 24/192 files and on a Virgin broadband WiFi connection.

Sounds pretty good to me although I have no point of reference. Perhaps a case of the simple approach backed up with good instruction vs more complex scientific solutions.

The vast majority of people have no real problem with streaming using a Naim streamer.

It's just that you don't hear so much from them, whilst, in contrast, you hear a LOT from the few who do have substantial problems (most of which get fixed relatively quickly!).

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:
DrMark posted:

As someone just said above (too lazy to look again) it appears to come down to overpowering your neighbor's signals for wireless. Initial startup has always been kind of dodgy, but once I can get it going the sound quality is good.

Oh dear more mis information.. I feel for you, DrMark trying to follow and make sense of this... with wifi it's about being agile and using the minimum necessary (default) and multiple access points... As said earlier best use multiple access points that overlap on a single WLAN.. and let the APs automatically select the right power which will be default. 

The APs will select the optimum channels to use and the clients will follow them... I am afraid no matter what power you are using on wifi if you are trying to over power a neighbour you will have a compromised experience, but this isn't necessarily bad if your access points are managing the situation... it's not about power in this regard... your network will be syncing with your neighbour's  wifi network to an extent .. it just becomes like everyone shouting to be heard over each other in a busy room... just because you shout louder it doesn't make it necessarily easy to be heard... but someone whispering or talking into your ear in a noisy environment can really help.

So if you want to use your 272 and wifi.. a really good option... just best ensure you at least two wired participating access points in neighbouring or your listening rooms. Those Ubiquiti devices just could be the biscuit.

Hi Guys,

I did run up some basic documents here to try to explain at a simple level why things don't necessarily work the way that they expect them to ... they haven't been 'published' as such but I will add them here in the hope that they may be useful at a very basic level.

Now, these are not intended to be in any way 'technical' docs - just basic primers that don't scare the hell out of people or intimidate them - so the more techie of you will obviously be able to pick up with "oh but you haven't mentioned this spec or that standard" but that isn't their purpose. I'm more than happy for feedback direct to me if there's anything obvious that you feel is missing or is incorrect but please direct it to me - phil.harris@naimaudio.com - rather than adding more tendrils to this topic.

Best

Phil

Attachments

Huge posted:

Hi Phil how would you like responses suggesting changes and clarifications?

Hi Huge,

I'm more than happy for feedback direct to me if there's anything obvious that you feel is missing or is incorrect but please direct it to me - phil.harris@naimaudio.com - rather than adding more tendrils to this topic.

I want to keep these simple though rather than them growing into something huge (please excuse the obvious pun) and imposing...

Cheers

Phil

Phil Harris posted:
Huge posted:

Hi Phil how would you like responses suggesting changes and clarifications?

Hi Huge,

I'm more than happy for feedback direct to me if there's anything obvious that you feel is missing or is incorrect but please direct it to me - phil.harris@naimaudio.com - rather than adding more tendrils to this topic.

I want to keep these simple though rather than them growing into something huge (please excuse the obvious pun) and imposing...

Cheers

Phil

i think that this topic was useful for people, like op, who have difficulties in streaming wirelessly. Some members gave technical advices.  The tittle of the topic is perhaps not the most appropriate. It could be" i have problems streaming wirelessly "....

Thanks Phil, that is very useful.

I looked at this thread because I too was so sick of streaming. Frustration after frustration of trying various solutions such as hard wiring, different routers, mesh wifi etc and none seemed to work for me. I run a Uniti2 with a US and three Muso's around the house. The Muso's seemed stable using powerlines only as Ethernet hard wiring not an option for me. The Uniti was the issue dropping out no matter what the streaming source so as to be unusable. This would happen even when wired directly to my router with an Ethernet cable.

Since the weekend however, my system seems to be stable over a wifi network and this was from adopting the Apple Extreme and Apple Express solution mentioned by others. The Apple Express is directly attached to the Uniti via an Ethernet cable. I now have multi-room streaming to all the Muso's via wifi and have not, so far experienced a single drop out. This was unheard of for me. The result have been astonishing and so many thanks to all those who shared this knowledge.

The other thing that seems to have made a big difference is stopping using Amazon Echo on my network. When I re-connected everything gradually on starting to use the Apple Extreme, this was the one device which seemed to cause the network to go into meltdown and the drop outs issue happened. I am not a technical person and so have no ability to say whether there is any specification reason for this. I can only share my experience that it seemed to make a difference for me. I now turn my own lights on and if I want to know the weather, I look out the window.          

    

 

Graham in Sussex posted:

Thanks Phil, that is very useful.

I looked at this thread because I too was so sick of streaming. Frustration after frustration of trying various solutions such as hard wiring, different routers, mesh wifi etc and none seemed to work for me. I run a Uniti2 with a US and three Muso's around the house. The Muso's seemed stable using powerlines only as Ethernet hard wiring not an option for me. The Uniti was the issue dropping out no matter what the streaming source so as to be unusable. This would happen even when wired directly to my router with an Ethernet cable.

Since the weekend however, my system seems to be stable over a wifi network and this was from adopting the Apple Extreme and Apple Express solution mentioned by others. The Apple Express is directly attached to the Uniti via an Ethernet cable. I now have multi-room streaming to all the Muso's via wifi and have not, so far experienced a single drop out. This was unheard of for me. The result have been astonishing and so many thanks to all those who shared this knowledge.

The other thing that seems to have made a big difference is stopping using Amazon Echo on my network. When I re-connected everything gradually on starting to use the Apple Extreme, this was the one device which seemed to cause the network to go into meltdown and the drop outs issue happened. I am not a technical person and so have no ability to say whether there is any specification reason for this. I can only share my experience that it seemed to make a difference for me. I now turn my own lights on and if I want to know the weather, I look out the window.

Hi,

I'm glad that you have your streaming issues resolved.

One thing that is quite important is to try to avoid "annecdotal" fixes becoming accepted as lore and to this end there are no reason why you shouldn't have an Amazon or Google home assistant on your network - that removing it from the network helped your specific issue shouldn't be taken as "Echo = bad juju", just that the network traffic generated by Echo was causing your specific network to go into meltdown somehow.

I run both an Echo and Echo Dot at home and have no streaming issues that I can't isolate down to being caused by specific "other things" (mainly the wet piece of string that connects my part of the New Forest to the outside world).

Remember that at some time in the future all threads will turn up at some point on some unsuspecting persons Google search and we need to make sure that when they read them (probably without getting a good idea of context too) that the information here is as accurate as possible. :-)

Cheers

Phil

Good point Phil. There is no doubt the non-tech savvy amongst us rely upon the tech professionals to get everything right for us. Demanding lot, we are. I suspect some of the frustrations come from an ignorance (I mean just me, not anyone else!) of what it is reasonable to expect and what is the true real, world limit on performance. How many devices can I add to my network before it falls over?  what devices?  in what order? does it matter? etc etc.  I think your papers help to explain that there are limitations and there will be a huge variation from location to location as to what will work and what won't work. Even if it can be measured, I still like to know what works and doesn't work for others! It gives me an excuse to come home with more boxes of stuff.         

perizoqui posted:
GregW posted:

 

I have been a little too busy to keep up with Naim's progress with Roon, but I'd be very curious to see how UPnP compares to Roon on the same Naim streamer in terms of basic setup and reliability. 

From what I've read Roon, specifically RAAT (the part of Roon that replaces UPnP) is far more advanced. The Roon knowledge base will give you details. I'd provide the link but that's not allowed. Certainly works flawlessly since I started using it. Gone are the days of rebooting my UPnP control point ten times a day. Add in advanced software DSP, room correction, and a spectacular user interface...

Honestly, I put Roon off for two years because I thought the price was outrageous. Now I wish I'd done it sooner. Totally worth it. Free trial, so I can't recommend trying it enough! Actually, it's probably good I waited since I've heard the current release (1.3) is far ahead of prior releases. For classical music especially (99% of my listening) it's just light-years ahead of everything. Tidal integration is amazing too. Not that they have it, rather how they've done it.

Kind of like this thread: it's not that you have wireless streaming, but how you implement it that determines whether it delivers on expectations, or gets unplugged in favor of an ethernet cable.

I am a complete aficionado of Roon, and will buy the lifetime membership at next renewal, but installing it for use in a Naim streamer based system is not for the novice. The next big Naim advance would be a 'Roon plugin ready' streamer, if that makes any sense?

Claus-Thoegersen posted:

Roon needs a dedicated server, and runs terrible software, absolutely no Roon here until they change view on accessibility.

Any digital music collection requires a server in order to be streamed, regardless of software. There are many server software options: iTunes, minimserver, J River, Naim, and Roon are a few popular ones. All of these require control point software to select tracks and play them. iTunes, J River, and Roon come with those control points integrated with the server software, and also with iOS and Android options. Minim server requires 3rd party UPnP control points like Bubble UPnP or the Naim app. Naim servers use their own app. Naim's server software is the only one of the ones mentioned above that "needs a dedicated server." All the others can run on a dedicated server, or a NAS, or a PC.

Roon isn't unique or different in what it requires, only in how it manages metadata for the files on the server and in the user interface experience. That last may not be for everyone, granted.

Phil Harris posted:
Simon-in-Suffolk posted:
DrMark posted:

As someone just said above (too lazy to look again) it appears to come down to overpowering your neighbor's signals for wireless. Initial startup has always been kind of dodgy, but once I can get it going the sound quality is good.

Oh dear more mis information.. I feel for you, DrMark trying to follow and make sense of this... with wifi it's about being agile and using the minimum necessary (default) and multiple access points... As said earlier best use multiple access points that overlap on a single WLAN.. and let the APs automatically select the right power which will be default. 

The APs will select the optimum channels to use and the clients will follow them... I am afraid no matter what power you are using on wifi if you are trying to over power a neighbour you will have a compromised experience, but this isn't necessarily bad if your access points are managing the situation... it's not about power in this regard... your network will be syncing with your neighbour's  wifi network to an extent .. it just becomes like everyone shouting to be heard over each other in a busy room... just because you shout louder it doesn't make it necessarily easy to be heard... but someone whispering or talking into your ear in a noisy environment can really help.

So if you want to use your 272 and wifi.. a really good option... just best ensure you at least two wired participating access points in neighbouring or your listening rooms. Those Ubiquiti devices just could be the biscuit.

Hi Guys,

I did run up some basic documents here to try to explain at a simple level why things don't necessarily work the way that they expect them to ... they haven't been 'published' as such but I will add them here in the hope that they may be useful at a very basic level.

Now, these are not intended to be in any way 'technical' docs - just basic primers that don't scare the hell out of people or intimidate them - so the more techie of you will obviously be able to pick up with "oh but you haven't mentioned this spec or that standard" but that isn't their purpose. I'm more than happy for feedback direct to me if there's anything obvious that you feel is missing or is incorrect but please direct it to me - phil.harris@naimaudio.com - rather than adding more tendrils to this topic.

Best

Phil

Hi Phil,

 

These are really excellent documents, well done. Over time I will endeavour to hard wire LAN.

Kind Regards

 

p.s. Still doesn't explain why my Linn DS on the same network, same connections, same kit, same location doesn't ever miss a beat but the Mu-So continues to do so. 

 

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