I hope its worth it?

wenger2015 posted:

Dealers should maybe have Racks available to take home and try??? Bearing in mind it is an expensive purchase 

The better ones do this and I am surprised yours did not.

I borrowed one small, 5 shelf, stack of Fraim to determine whether a move from a full Reference Stands Unique stand would bring sonic improvements; the aesthetic improvement was already accepted. It did highlight that without a serious think of how to accommodate the CD player a Fraim stand was NOT the answer. Until we solved that, which we did, there was no way I would have bought the Fraim tables. 

I have found this thread very interesting , ultimately I will go to a full fraim setup.....if and when I move out of my man cave - as I would want a double stack and don't have space at the moment. Currently I use an Atacama Evoque SE - this made quite a difference, Interestingly the 40mm bamboo shelves were so flat that no shims were required under the NDS. I found that the timing of the bass was better and female vocals were transformed and imaging improved.

Hungryhalibut posted:

I had a Fraim about ten years ago, and yes, it’s very good. I sold it when I downsized my system. It would be wrong, though, to portray Fraim as the only rack in town. You can get near to the performance for a lot less money, and without the higher maintenance of ownership. It seems very likely, as Wenger has mentioned, that the jump from the modified Apollo to the Fraim is a lot greater than that from a rack that is already pretty good. 

One thing I do wholeheartedly agree on is that a really good rack makes a really big difference with Naim, and that it’s something to address sooner rather than later. 

I remember HH saying that he thought HiFi Racks somewhat leadened the sound, which led me to have doubts about my two stacks! However, @S3 posted pictures of his and the benefit of isolation shelves, and advised.  Now we both agree that the Naim, glass cups and balls do the job.

The 252 I’m demoing now sounds as good the 552 I demoed without the isolation. I’m quite relieved to have a cost effective improvement. The icing would be to have predrilled recesses for the cups, but there is no movement of the glass.

Given their relative low cost and attractive appearance I feel content now and at the same time a bit miffed to have spent two years getting the best out of my boxes and cables. Racks really are fundamental.

I looked at Quadraspire and thought they were pretty expensive, and my wife and I did not like them as much as the solid oak I have. Once again, Wenger, your Black Fraims are really cool 😎.

Phil

 

If anyone wants a good test of their racks then I recommend the early Genesis up to 1976. I had some really weird sounds from the demo 552 at times! I really love Genesis, which should sound amazing, and it was annoying the car system sounded ok if not spectacular when my system could be weird. Some other music just sounds duller with bad racks and some even really good, which makes it difficult to understand what to do!

Phil

HiFiman posted:

I've been fraimed, well this Saturday when i collect the fraim from my local Naim dealer this will replace my £20 Ikea stand so hoping for an improvement 

Gone for cherry with black legs as the wife insisted this was my only colour option.

The good news is the fraim will work well regardless of the colour, your in a win win situation, you will be happy, wife will be happy 

you must post some pictures once it’s all set up 

Richard Dane posted:
HiFiman posted:

...Gone for cherry with black legs...

Mmmm.  Nice.

I'm sometimes tempted to spray the legs black on my cherry/silver Fraim...

I have recently had the wheels on my soft top car refurbished, they look superb, the guys who do this kind of work are generally happy to do anything that you want, so a set or two of fraim legs....???

Nick from Suffolk posted:
wenger2015 posted:

Dealers should maybe have Racks available to take home and try??? Bearing in mind it is an expensive purchase 

The better ones do this and I am surprised yours did not.

I borrowed one small, 5 shelf, stack of Fraim to determine whether a move from a full Reference Stands Unique stand would bring sonic improvements; the aesthetic improvement was already accepted. It did highlight that without a serious think of how to accommodate the CD player a Fraim stand was NOT the answer. Until we solved that, which we did, there was no way I would have bought the Fraim tables. 

I notice in your profile, you use the term ‘Scrooge mode’ ?? Is that with reference to your rack??

wenger2015 posted:
TOBYJUG posted:

I read once that different finishes makes a considerable effect on sound.   Like those speakers that sounded different depending on the type of veneer.

Which colour finish for best sound??

Olive obviously. (Or green for those of you who have updated your gear in the last 15 years.)

Eoink posted:
wenger2015 posted:
TOBYJUG posted:

I read once that different finishes makes a considerable effect on sound.   Like those speakers that sounded different depending on the type of veneer.

Which colour finish for best sound??

Olive obviously. (Or green for those of you who have updated your gear in the last 15 years.)

You know it makes sense ....

S3 posted:

“Leaden” is probably the last adjective I’d use to describe how this set up is sounding now. But - each to their own etc....

 

I was referring to the very basic Hifi Racks stand with four shelves, all fixed together. It was dreadful. I’m unconvinced by racks that almost need modification to sound good. If you need to add Fraim glass to Hifi Racks stands to get a decent performance it’s almost like you might as well just get Fraim in the first place, and use it as designed. 

ChrisSU posted:
S3 posted:

 

 

Interestingly, when I took the oak platforms out, it was clear that they had warped quite badly so as well to do this.

 

IMG_1801

 

One reason why most hifi racks are made from composite materials rather than solid timber!

A good example of a hifishelve which could gets used as chopping board - instead of the other way around?

Hungryhalibut posted:
S3 posted:

“Leaden” is probably the last adjective I’d use to describe how this set up is sounding now. But - each to their own etc....

 

I was referring to the very basic Hifi Racks stand with four shelves, all fixed together. It was dreadful. I’m unconvinced by racks that almost need modification to sound good. If you need to add Fraim glass to Hifi Racks stands to get a decent performance it’s almost like you might as well just get Fraim in the first place, and use it as designed. 

HH, Thank you for clarification of what product you were referring to.

I’d say I paid a good bit less than the price of Fraim including the upgrade. Black Fraim, which I really like, was not available. We liked the look of the HiFi Rack and did not know the impact of the decision we made two years ago, and the dealer recommended them. I suppose upgrading other racks is a bit like starting with Fraim Lite and upgrading that. Some people buy  the bronze upgrade to Quadraspire. The really big improvement I notice may just be getting the 300 DR Burndies hanging freely rather than resting supported by pipe insulation. But I doubt it.

Phil

Hungryhalibut posted:
S3 posted:

“Leaden” is probably the last adjective I’d use to describe how this set up is sounding now. But - each to their own etc....

 

I was referring to the very basic Hifi Racks stand with four shelves, all fixed together. It was dreadful. I’m unconvinced by racks that almost need modification to sound good. If you need to add Fraim glass to Hifi Racks stands to get a decent performance it’s almost like you might as well just get Fraim in the first place, and use it as designed. 

Fairly obviously Fraim will give the best performance. It will be better than Quadraspire and better than HiFi Racks. However, as Phil said it really comes down to cost. I paid a total of £900 for my rack including the glass etc. The Fraim equivalent in the finish I would want (Ash) is over £4000. When I was purchasing the rack I did not want to pay an extra £3000. So it is a compromise but, I think, a perfectly acceptable and sensible one.

ChrisSU posted:

When I look at HiFiRacks stuff I can’t help thinking that they just buy in a load of kitchen worktops and chop them up! Nicely made, perhaps, but I thought racks were supposed to be low mass, which solid oak is certainly not. 

Chris, Fraim are not exactly light either. I think the goal is to reduce vibrational motion of the box. 500 series boxes have the circuit boards sprung to damp vibration transmitted from the box to the current carrying circuits. 

Phil

Quite apart from the fact that it tends to move and twist as it ages, there can also be other issues with solid oak.  Some years back I remember being  shocked to find that my old camera had gone all "gooey".  On taking it to a specialist it turned out that all the internal foams and rubber had broken down and turned to a sticky mess.  I was told that the most likely culprit was the oak bureau in which I had stored it.

wenger2015 posted:

I notice in your profile, you use the term ‘Scrooge mode’ ?? Is that with reference to your rack??

I 'saved' the cost of full Fraim throughout by buying 4 'lite shelves for the PSU stack (full base though) and since the full Fraim glass on the top non-PSU stack was not big enough, that was used on one of the 'lite shelves. I then re-purposed some of the spare isolation shelves (10mm glass) from the RMS SU stand for the other shelves, using the SU carbon fibre spacers, which are much less than 1mm taller than a cup and ball in the cut-out. Using the Naim cup and ball would have caused the levels to be visually wrong. All for about a £1k 'saving'. It will help to offset the cost of a new cartridge! 

Part scrooge and part sound economics?

Perhaps full Fraim everywhere might have helped, but from the home demo the effect of using 'lite on the PSU stack was at worst a sideways move. With the full Fraim for the non-PSU side there was (and remains) a small but definite uplift in performance, once the CD had a suitable glass shelf cut to size.  

wenger2015 posted:
TOBYJUG posted:

Why the medium and not the standard ?

I like the feel of space between the boxes, the extra height makes it easier for cable hanging and possible future upgrades...

 

I also opted for medium size legs as I have gone for three shelves and needed the additional height for burndy hang. 

Once setup I will post some pics.

Wenger, hope your setup sounds as good as it looks 

Richard Dane posted:

Quite apart from the fact that it tends to move and twist as it ages, there can also be other issues with solid oak.  Some years back I remember being  shocked to find that my old camera had gone all "gooey".  On taking it to a specialist it turned out that all the internal foams and rubber had broken down and turned to a sticky mess.  I was told that the most likely culprit was the oak bureau in which I had stored it.

Richard, it ‘sounds’ like a case of foam/rubber eating mould thriving in an unventilated space. Very annoying!

The consequence of the three point suspension is that the glass will always have perfect contact with the balls. The weight of the boxes hopefully will force the spikes into their seats keeping tension in the wood that may be enough to maintain shape somewhat. My one gripe is that the racks may start level but by the fifth level they are out a bit.

Phil

Nick from Suffolk posted:
wenger2015 posted:

I notice in your profile, you use the term ‘Scrooge mode’ ?? Is that with reference to your rack??

I 'saved' the cost of full Fraim throughout by buying 4 'lite shelves for the PSU stack (full base though) and since the full Fraim glass on the top non-PSU stack was not big enough, that was used on one of the 'lite shelves. I then re-purposed some of the spare isolation shelves (10mm glass) from the RMS SU stand for the other shelves, using the SU carbon fibre spacers, which are much less than 1mm taller than a cup and ball in the cut-out. Using the Naim cup and ball would have caused the levels to be visually wrong. All for about a £1k 'saving'. It will help to offset the cost of a new cartridge! 

Part scrooge and part sound economics?

Perhaps full Fraim everywhere might have helped, but from the home demo the effect of using 'lite on the PSU stack was at worst a sideways move. With the full Fraim for the non-PSU side there was (and remains) a small but definite uplift in performance, once the CD had a suitable glass shelf cut to size.  

I think less ‘Scrooge’ more ‘Clever’ and ‘Economic ‘...

HiFiman posted:
wenger2015 posted:
TOBYJUG posted:

Why the medium and not the standard ?

I like the feel of space between the boxes, the extra height makes it easier for cable hanging and possible future upgrades...

 

I also opted for medium size legs as I have gone for three shelves and needed the additional height for burndy hang. 

Once setup I will post some pics.

Wenger, hope your setup sounds as good as it looks 

I’m pleased to confirm it has exceeded my hoped for expectations....absolutely delighted.

Quite possibly as I have mentioned previously my previous rack was far worse then I had realised despite my best efforts at improving it, maybe the extra leg height makes a difference...? 

But it’s so good I have almost forgotten about the hefty price tag, I would have been gutted to pay so much just for it to look nice...

Richard Dane posted:

Filipe, I was told it was most likely emissions from the oak (which continue at low levels for many years even after the wood is long dead) that caused the problem, but your explanation does sound more plausible.

Richard, there are reports of the foam used in woofers and speakers in bygone times rotting after about 20 years, and in some cases less, presumably inside wooden cases. The exact cause is not known. However, modern foams are supposed to be better! The onward march of technology!

Phil

wenger2015 posted:

After much deliberation I have decided to order two Full Naim Fraims, base plus three shelves in Black.

Having spent sometime researching Racks and looking at other options, I have convinced myself that despite the considerable cost that it will be money well spent.......

I am very much hoping that I won’t be disappointed???????

I doubt you will be disappointed!

Especially Black, Great move!

 

Allante93!

 

Richard Dane posted:

Filipe, I was told it was most likely emissions from the oak (which continue at low levels for many years even after the wood is long dead) that caused the problem, but your explanation does sound more plausible.

Maybe you need to trap those emissions is some sort of medium, oh I don't know, perhaps alcohol would work? After you've done that for 12-15 years send it to me and I'll dispose of it for you.

Willy.

Willy posted:
Richard Dane posted:

Filipe, I was told it was most likely emissions from the oak (which continue at low levels for many years even after the wood is long dead) that caused the problem, but your explanation does sound more plausible.

Maybe you need to trap those emissions is some sort of medium, oh I don't know, perhaps alcohol would work? After you've done that for 12-15 years send it to me and I'll dispose of it for you.

Willy.

Willy, Sounds like a Ghostbusters job! Hope you are feeling better.

Phil

Filipe posted:
Willy posted:
Richard Dane posted:

Filipe, I was told it was most likely emissions from the oak (which continue at low levels for many years even after the wood is long dead) that caused the problem, but your explanation does sound more plausible.

Maybe you need to trap those emissions is some sort of medium, oh I don't know, perhaps alcohol would work? After you've done that for 12-15 years send it to me and I'll dispose of it for you.

Willy.

...Sounds like a Ghostbusters job!...

I'm guessing that spirits may well be involved...

Filipe posted:
Willy posted:
Richard Dane posted:

Filipe, I was told it was most likely emissions from the oak (which continue at low levels for many years even after the wood is long dead) that caused the problem, but your explanation does sound more plausible.

Maybe you need to trap those emissions is some sort of medium, oh I don't know, perhaps alcohol would work? After you've done that for 12-15 years send it to me and I'll dispose of it for you.

Willy.

Willy, Sounds like a Ghostbusters job! Hope you are feeling better.

Phil

Phil,

All moving in the right direction. Mornings, getting everything moving again, are unpleasant. Once that's over the days aren't too bad. Half the battle is figuring out what you can and cannot do. I'm fortunately fit enough to be able to make good use of arms and legs getting into and out of bed/chairs. Then you reach for a cup on a shelf and....now regard anything above eyelevel as out of range.

Weaned myself  off the opioids yesterday and getting by with paracetamol and some shouting. Working up to a beer soon!

Willy.

Richard Dane posted:
Filipe posted:
Willy posted:
Richard Dane posted:

Filipe, I was told it was most likely emissions from the oak (which continue at low levels for many years even after the wood is long dead) that caused the problem, but your explanation does sound more plausible.

Maybe you need to trap those emissions is some sort of medium, oh I don't know, perhaps alcohol would work? After you've done that for 12-15 years send it to me and I'll dispose of it for you.

Willy.

...Sounds like a Ghostbusters job!...

I'm guessing that spirits may well be involved...

Richard,

As a nation we're a very spiritual people. It has also been observed that we're quite factional. There are those whow seek long term spiritual enlightenment of a Sunday morning and those (myself included) who are more inclined to pursue shorter term spiritual relief of a Saturday night.

As soon as I've recovered to an adequate level I shall resume my search for spiritual enlightenment. In the mean time I might just take the Dr's advice in this matter. Dr Thirsty, who is recommending one of his No.4 Blondes.😀

Willy.

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