If the 552 DR is so good, why desire the Statement?

I haven't heard it - but how does the Allegri preserve the star earthing or ground principles of Naim

In particular the routing of the signal earth and power earth reference which is done through the Naim PSU?

As I can see, the Allegri has no DIN connectors, and therefore uses RCA connectors which splits the signal earth in two.

Of course I would rather pay for an Allegri if it can sound as good as a 552 - but over the years I've learnt more clarity doesn't equal more musicality - been burnt a few times by some companies that claim to better Naim - but they don't in the musical values that are important to me and that Naim provide.

Allante93 posted:

@ Innocent & Hugh:

Now Gentleman, if we eliminated the Pre Amp, how would one switch between their LP 12, CD 555, and NDS!

But if we by-pass the Pre-Amp, how would that impact SQ?

Posted by HM:

 

"yes, the hugo has its own internal preamp\volume\voltage control. it cannot be bypassed. connecting it to a second preamp will degrade transparancy, even if it was the best preamp ever made."

Allante93!

 

Allante  - if you spend some time reading the review of the NAC 552 on stereophile by Mike Fremer- you will find a different point of view.

With all respect to the designer of Hugo - Naim have designed the preamp and power amp as one unit. Even Changing the cables that connect both with Non Naim cables changes the timing and musicality, all then bets are off.

Naim do know what they are doing - there is to my ears such a thing as a Naim sound, and if you like that sound, there is not much to be gained by removing a Naim preamp from a Naim power amp and replacing that with something else. Some people claim to have done this (I think one forum member tried and is happy with his EAR valve preamp), but personally I'm very, very, extremely particular to preserve the musicality of a full Naim amp and also using original Naim cables.

 

 

Allante93 posted:

@ Innocent & Hugh:

Now Gentleman, if we eliminated the Pre Amp, how would one switch between their LP 12, CD 555, and NDS!

 

Easy, only have one source! That's what I do. 

However that relates to hifi source, and I do sometimes put other things through the system (e.g. keyboard or guitar),  and to do that I disconnect Dave and connect a preamp - or with my Bryston amp, which has dual inputs, one balanced, I connect one to Dave and the other to a preamp, and switch between them on the amp.

Consciousmess posted:

I need to challenge people here as if one looks through older posts, the 52 was once the bees knees.  Of course its updated model is better, but then the praise and words said for the 552 make one think THAT was the pinnacle.

No post says the 552 is lacking. None. So why desire the Statement?

(And how is the 52 now viewed?!)

Human fickleness is perplexing. Maybe that's the wrong word, but when the 'Statement 2' comes out, how will the Statement be commented on... e.g. "I was listening to superb hifi but now the band is properly in the room".

Curious, don't you think?

It`s all relative

Consciousmess posted:

I need to challenge people here as if one looks through older posts, the 52 was once the bees knees.  Of course its updated model is better, but then the praise and words said for the 552 make one think THAT was the pinnacle.

No post says the 552 is lacking. None. So why desire the Statement?

(And how is the 52 now viewed?!)

Human fickleness is perplexing. Maybe that's the wrong word, but when the 'Statement 2' comes out, how will the Statement be commented on... e.g. "I was listening to superb hifi but now the band is properly in the room".

Curious, don't you think?

Bugger me if the pinacle doesn't keep moving !    ...and isn't it said that if you're not moving forward, you're moving backward (there's no such thing as 'standing still').   This is what makes life for us human beings bearable isn't it?

In fact, tbh I'm dreading the day that I can no longer look forward to getting even more enjoyment out of my audio setup... that will be the day my spirit has died and with it, probably, my will to carry on.

Still, looking on the bright side, at least I am comforted knowing the meaning of life... 42  (or is it JC?)

I believe 42 was the answer provided by the Supercomputer to 'life, the universe and everything'. The answer wasn't understood (by Ford Prefect wasn't it?) because the question was also incomprehensible.

Sorry to be so pedantic and sorry for the diversion. I admit to being bored.

Emre posted:

a stupid question about statement...

can you you use the Pre statement with 300dr or 500dr?  will it be an odd combo?  

I seem to remember a thread posted by a Naim dealer a few years ago on this very subject. He  connected the S1 preamp to the pre DR amplifiers from 200 through to 500 with excellent results. The thread revealed how excellent even the less expensive amplifiers in the Naim classic series are, something most of us will never hear as we will never own an S1!

S1 works very nicely with 500DR.
I'd say the DR 'sound' upgrade fits very well with the qualities the S1 brings to the system, especially the extreme LF delivery quality in terms of purity, power and perceived phase - there is a 'start-stop' on deep notes plucked or percussive hits that is special. Although the overall thing I like is the 'at ease' un-forced clarity and insight into the musical fabric that is there.

DB.

Darke Bear posted:

S1 works very nicely with 500DR.
I'd say the DR 'sound' upgrade fits very well with the qualities the S1 brings to the system, especially the extreme LF delivery quality in terms of purity, power and perceived phase - there is a 'start-stop' on deep notes plucked or percussive hits that is special. Although the overall thing I like is the 'at ease' un-forced clarity and insight into the musical fabric that is there.

DB.

DB.

I see why Bears hibernate, the Forum can get crazy, but for the most, a fine bunch!

When I joined the Forum,  you offered me a warm welcome, and shared pictures of your Active BRIKS.

At that time, the SL technologies had not been released.

At that time you were sporting, non- DR Black Boxes with BMR Active Ovators!

I think.

Flat Earth---------------0----------------Round Earth

Would you say that the introduction to the Dred Blacked boxes, combined with the Loom, has moved the needle to the right?

And Lastly, but not least, has the S1 moved the needle?

Allante93!

The options of so-called 'flat earth' and 'Round Earth' are not bipolar options when you have the S1.

People hear and appreciate different things got right in music replay systems. Naim, for me, tend to always retain what I describe as high 'linearity' in the sound at expense of other aspects of HiFi performance. What I mean be linearity is that the louder musical strands do no obliterate the quieter strands. Some manufacturers equipment optimise high-level quality at expense of the quieter strands of music - some to my ears in a shocking way given the praise they seem to get. With Naim kit I hear the quiet with the loud portrayed very well. The 'start-stop' quality or good transient handling and low overhang also give the 'darkness' to the sound I like as well as the good tunefulness.

As the Naim hierarchy is ascended you get more of this ability, together with more of the 'HiFi' so-called round earth aspects, but never sacrificing the inherent linearity to attain the latter. Some levels of the hierarchy attain the system end result differently, but you could hear what Naim were aiming for with the old Reference kit. The Statement components just takes it far further, but at a considerable financial outlay. 

That is how I hear it.

DB.

Allante93 posted:
Darke Bear posted:

S1 works very nicely with 500DR.
I'd say the DR 'sound' upgrade fits very well with the qualities the S1 brings to the system, especially the extreme LF delivery quality in terms of purity, power and perceived phase - there is a 'start-stop' on deep notes plucked or percussive hits that is special. Although the overall thing I like is the 'at ease' un-forced clarity and insight into the musical fabric that is there.

DB.

DB.

I see why Bears hibernate, the Forum can get crazy, but for the most, a fine bunch!

When I joined the Forum,  you offered me a warm welcome, and shared pictures of your Active BRIKS.

At that time, the SL technologies had not been released.

At that time you were sporting, non- DR Black Boxes with BMR Active Ovators!

I think.

Flat Earth---------------0----------------Round Earth

Would you say that the introduction to the Dred Blacked boxes, combined with the Loom, has moved the needle to the right?

And Lastly, but not least, has the S1 moved the needle?

Allante93!

ALLANTE !

For me personally curiosity is good, but for me (again) clearly not with stuff that is financially out of reach.

Sorry but that's the way I see it. I am happy at 282 level, not at all motivated to even listen to S1.

Particularly when stuff that is within reach take performance to levels that "I don't care about the next level" (Vertere cables, Chord Mojo/Hugo)

 

I have NO doubts that S1 is much better than 552, but let's not act like small children it is a matter of cold hard CASH.

If you got it, you don't need to ask "why desire the statement", if you don't then try to be happy with what you got, after plenty of people were/are happy with the old 52, let alone 552.

Likewise there is NO need to ask whether a Bentley is one of the best cars on the planet, if funds are not available. 

 
analogmusic posted:
Allante93 posted:
Darke Bear posted:

Flat Earth>Round E.

Would you say that the introduction to the Dred Blacked boxes, combined with the Loom, has movjed the needle to the right?

And Lastly, but not least, has the S1 moved the needle?

Allante93!

ALLANTE !

For me personally curiosity is good, but for me (again) clearly not with stuff that is financially out of reach.

Sorry but that's the way I see it. I am happy at 282 level, not at all motivated to even listen to S1.

Particularly when stuff that is within reach take performance to levels that "I don't care about the next level" (Vertere cables, Chord Mojo/Hugo)

 

I have NO doubts that S1 is much better than 552, but let's not act like small children it is a matter of cold hard CASH.

If you got it, you don't need to ask "why desire the statement", if you don't then try to be happy with what you got, after plenty of people were/are happy with the old 52, let alone 552.

Likewise there is NO need to ask whether a Bentley is one of the best cars on the planet, if funds are not available. 

Right you are again, Analog!

I don't have the Hard Cold Cash for Chords Dave, less known a Statement!

I merely was asking DB has the needle moved towards the round earth end of the spectrum.

As usual, DB answer the question in a most appropriate fashion :

Posted by DB.

"As the Naim hierarchy is ascended you get more of this ability,

{together with more of the 'HiFi' so-called round earth aspects}

, but never sacrificing the inherent linearity to attain the latter.

Some levels of the hierarchy attain the system end result differently, but you could hear what Naim were aiming for with the old Reference kit.

The Statement components just takes it far further, but at a considerable financial outlay. 

That is how I hear it.

DB.""

And that my Friend, is how DB, views the Evolving Sound Of Naim!

Allante93!

PS. I'm with you Analog-Music!

""For me personally curiosity is good, but for me (again) clearly not with stuff that is financially out of reach.

Sorry but that's the way I see it. I am happy at 282 level, not at all motivated to even listen to S1.""

But if I had the Hard Cold Cash, Dave!!!!!

LOL......

No, Dave is not at all required to enjoy music.... I got the Chord Mojo, and due to portability I use that a lot more than Dave. And it is very enjoyable.

All I'm saying is over the years I learnt small investments in cables from Chord cables and Vertere and affordable DAC like Mojo can give much more satisfaction than the upgrade boxes some of which are out of reach for me.

Do look into these, for example  the entry level Chord interconnect - clearway has some of the hi-end Tuned Aray technology from Sarum and sounds superb to me.

Same with DFI range from Vertere, real game changing sound.

I also managed to buy an old Chord Chrysalis - from eBay - and now I understand why Richard Dane likes it so much.

So I've learnt to try to get the very best out of what I got.

Powerline Lite is quite reasonably priced and makes a difference.

Anyway now that Uniti star and Nova are out - all bets are off. Who knows, that could be all the Naim one ever needs.

 

I'm disappointed that there is no upgrade path for the statement. In the usual Naim style it could have had lots of supporting black boxes with upgrade options. Otherwise what does a statement owner do with their time when there are no tweaks to explore? 

whsturm posted:

I'm disappointed that there is no upgrade path for the statement. In the usual Naim style it could have had lots of supporting black boxes with upgrade options. Otherwise what does a statement owner do with their time when there are no tweaks to explore? 

That the rich way do most things, get the most expensive one and more on....

analogmusic posted:

All I'm saying is over the years I learnt small investments in cables from Chord cables and Vertere and affordable DAC like Mojo can give much more satisfaction than the upgrade boxes some of which are out of reach for me.

Do look into these, for example  the entry level Chord interconnect - clearway has some of the hi-end Tuned Aray technology from Sarum and sounds superb to me.

Same with DFI range from Vertere, real game changing sound.

I also managed to buy an old Chord Chrysalis - from eBay - and now I understand why Richard Dane likes it so much.

So I've learnt to try to get the very best out of what I got.

 

Very good Advice!

Quick Question, please excuse me for going off topic!

I don't no much about Streaming, but from what I gather from the Forum, I'm Streaming Locally!

Airport Express = AE

MM > Time Capsule > Airport Express.

AE > 282 > HCDR > Passive Tri-Amped Bricks.

AE > Emotiva Dac 1 > Primare Pre 30 > Arcam 

P1 Mono Blocks >  Vienna  Baby Grands.

(Audio Quest King Cobra XLR ICs )

(Dac > Pre 30 > Mono Blocks.)

When Streaming from my local itune Library, the Vienna Acoustic Baby Grands/ Family Room

is the place to be!

I would imagine it's due to the fact I'm using an $100 dac within the Airport Express in the Living-Room, as opposed to my Emotiva Dac in the Family-Room, with King Cobra XLR ICs throughout the System.

Question:

Would an mojo be comparable to my Emotiva Dac?

Allante93!

PS. Now Cdx2 > 282 > Briks

A different Story, no contest!

Sold my oppo bd 95, three years ago!

Wasn't a bad deck!

Pre-loved Naim ain't Cheap!

 

yes but look at the cost of Mojo and cost of Dave....

Mojo plays music in a way that is very musical to my ears.

Just because Statement S1 exists now doesn't make the 552 any less musical.. same sort of logic.

So the answer (for me) for this thread - it is just plain silly to desire a statement S1 if one cannot afford, and if all one can afford is a 552 or 252 or 282 or UQ, well, play some music and enjoy it. 

To lose any sleep over this question is a bit childish. 

 

Last Autumn, my Naim dealer in Kingston-on-Thames, hosted an evening comparing the 552/500, DR, and the Statement units. Source was NDS/555 PS, single, and speakers B & W 802, D3. Quite a system/s. For those who know the shop and their rear demo room they opted for setup in the shop front giving if nothing else a much larger volume to work in.

Music used was mostly hard rock. Something I personally find difficult to evaluate hi-fi with. What struck me was how similar both systems sounded. Blame my OAP ears, but that's how it came across to me and I have similar equipment at home. BUT not the Statement!. The 802s from either amp could play at an enormous volume, sounding better by the entrance door to the shop! Not a criticism.

Chatting to Infidelity's ever helpful staff, the feeling is the Statement pre-amp is the star of two, albeit at three times the price of the 552. With the demise of the 555 CD player it would be likely the NDS will become  junior to a server  in the same price bracket as the 555 head unit, now available used at a comparatively good price. The Linn CD12 is around for about half its original cost.

lotus.

Consciousmess posted:

But who here thinks they could hear the difference between a Statement and 3 active Statements into e.g. Sonus Faber Ada?

If the answer is none then there's no where to go for Naim after the Statement!

The difference active vs passive is a function of the loudspeaker, and will always be there, so yes, triamping with 3 Statements would be likely to sound better than passive with 1

But that is not a Naim upgrade path. Perhaps there will be no upgrade path for amps beyond Statement, or not until some future technological breakthrough, but they can still develop amps, to bring benefits to lower level models perhaps, though they may desire to maintain a differential otherwise they would lose sales of higher cost models - and the balance there is financial, more sales at lower cost vs fewer at higher.

I have no doubt the statement preamp is better... in all respects .... it has vastly superior stepped attenuator and the next veneration of amp design and earthing technology..... The gentleman I bought my 552dr from who audition carefully stated it was a quantum keep forward ... enough to trade in his 3 year old 552 for a 50k statement pre. The analogy he drew was the 272 I had was like opening the door revealing a crack.... the 552 was door wide open and the statement was door wide open and patio doors wide open to garden!!!!

Darke Bear posted:

Naim, for me, tend to always retain what I describe as high 'linearity' in the sound at expense of other aspects of HiFi performance. What I mean be linearity is that the louder musical strands do no obliterate the quieter strands. Some manufacturers equipment optimise high-level quality at expense of the quieter strands of music - some to my ears in a shocking way given the praise they seem to get. With Naim kit I hear the quiet with the loud portrayed very well. The 'start-stop' quality or good transient handling and low overhang also give the 'darkness' to the sound I like as well as the good tunefulness.

As the Naim hierarchy is ascended you get more of this ability, together with more of the 'HiFi' so-called round earth aspects, but never sacrificing the inherent linearity to attain the latter. Some levels of the hierarchy attain the system end result differently, but you could hear what Naim were aiming for with the old Reference kit. 

I like this description of 'linearity', and have found while gradually adding SL to make a full loom that quite quiet instruments like a tambourine in a orchestra stand out and are not overwhelmed by the rest of the orchestra. Heard this live in the Albert Hall at the Tchaikovsky Gala recently, which included the 1812 Overture.

Phil

Richieroo posted:

I have no doubt the statement preamp is better... in all respects .... it has vastly superior stepped attenuator and the next veneration of amp design and earthing technology..... The gentleman I bought my 552dr from who audition carefully stated it was a quantum keep forward ... enough to trade in his 3 year old 552 for a 50k statement pre. The analogy he drew was the 272 I had was like opening the door revealing a crack.... the 552 was door wide open and the statement was door wide open and patio doors wide open to garden!!!!

I like that analogy. Interesting, isn't it, how it seems it is always possible to improve the sound, no matter what gear one has - though the cost per step tends to increase exponentially - unless other components are at a lower level.

Still many steps to go, of course, the patio door to become a bifold opening wall, then to step through the room ever closer to that open wall, then out onto the patio, then across it towards the expanse of garden itself, then, maybe, down the steps to enter it fully...

Following your analogy, Innocent Bystander, I think the final step is neo-cortical stimulation of the auditory cortex by transcranial electromagnetism.

(Perhaps the step beyond that includes five Polynesian virgins of whatever gender one chooses - giving that affirmative nod to equality and diversity.)

Consciousmess posted:

I need to challenge people here as if one looks through older posts, the 52 was once the bees knees.  Of course its updated model is better, but then the praise and words said for the 552 make one think THAT was the pinnacle.

No post says the 552 is lacking. None. So why desire the Statement?

(And how is the 52 now viewed?!)

Human fickleness is perplexing. Maybe that's the wrong word, but when the 'Statement 2' comes out, how will the Statement be commented on... e.g. "I was listening to superb hifi but now the band is properly in the room".

Curious, don't you think?

I think the price difference is a gentle clue, if the Statement is not better or different from the 552 then Naim's reputation would go down the loo...?  Obviously if there were to be a Statement 2 then the reviewers description would go something like  " I was entrying a night club and heard Jazz with the original Statement, with the Statement 2 my eyes stung from the smoke in the club, I was tipsy from drinking  double whisky and cokes and the lovely bass  physically resonated through my body, oh my god I think I am going to be sick, blimey I feel like I am there...!"

This post attract me.

I have full 500 series (not DR version, only the CD555 upgrade to DR version on PSU), pairing with ProAc Corbon Pro 8 Speaker which recently obsolete from ProAc. I have this setup sing for 4 years without changing any piece of the component on it. Reason why because I am total satisfied on its performance.

Then the Statement launch and I listened them pairing with Magico Q7 & dCS Vivaldi on Hong Kong HiFi show few years ago. To me the performance was good, but not as good as what I heard the different from 252 to 552 and etc.

To me, if your room approx 20ft length x 15ft more or less, then 500 series will just suite best, if you prefer to put Statement in this similar size of room with suitable speaker  then I can quite sure that the performance shall be very less in different, perhaps only slightly better in overall control the bass line (which the 500 already excellent), and possible slightly better on the sound-stage and detail, I mean slightly. Using the Statement on the small to mid size of room is a waste for Naim user.

Statement will only be good and suitable for large room size (35ft width x 60ft length), large speaker (Focal Utopia/Wilson/Kharma and etc) and require no compromise on the power demand, which's should no compromise to control the speaker from rock (fast) to vocal (slow) musics.

Summing up subjectively, I felt like if you have small-mid size room then don't waste your money to go for Statement, 500 series DR will do the best at its price point or even double/triple price setup. I certainly quite sure about this, if you match well, 500 series are the best combo so far I ever across at this price point or double than that.

 

Regards,

Joseph.

 

 

 

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