In praise of 272/250DR

TonyK posted:

SS : Many thanks for reply. Just that my U2 with 250Dr has been sounding so good lately that I was dreaming of even more from the 272. Next is the XPS DR and then a SL ic and speaker cables by Cristmas time. My U 2 is being inherited by my daughter and her husband so it will stil be in the family.

Take a breath, man. You've just dropped over three grand on a piece of equipment without apparently knowing conclusively that it's better than what you already have. And before you've even got it, you're planning 7k's worth of further spending on it.

Audiophilia nervosa/galloping upgraditis loom.

Ardbeg10y posted:

Is anyone using the N272 in an Active setup? N272 --> Snaxo --> Poweramps?

No reason you couldn't do that. But it does seem somewhat at odds philosophy wise. Multi box count vs low box count ethos exemplified by the 272. Having said that, if I was remotely interested in streaming, which I'm not, I might consider swapping out my 282/SC for the 272/XPSDR. The difference has been reported by many as minimal to inaudible, which, if true, would make the 272 one of the Greatest Naim Bargains of all time!

...

 

FenderStratman52 posted:

202 to 282

...

 

l will stick to my own judgement and say my NAPC2 is on sale, l hear it as a killer of the lucid excellent sound of 292/200. lve hidden behind the sofa for protection.!!!!

 

 

I must say a NAPSC on the 202 (I presume you mean, not a 292?) did not have that effect on me.

In fact I thought it had little effect or benefit so I'll try my 202 without it. 

... must be my ears!

I suspect that the investment required to go active and the fact that, as I understand it, an active set up is more revealing of any weakness in the source would mean that a 272 active set up is relatively rare.

My 272/XPSDR/250DR/SL2 set up sounds wonderful but if I decided, in time, to move to active I suspect trading in the 272 for NDS / NDX and 282 would be part of the equation.

That said I'd be very interested to hear if anyone is running a 272 active and what observations they may wish to share.

S3 posted:

I suspect that the investment required to go active and the fact that, as I understand it, an active set up is more revealing of any weakness in the source would mean that a 272 active set up is relatively rare.

My 272/XPSDR/250DR/SL2 set up sounds wonderful but if I decided, in time, to move to active I suspect trading in the 272 for NDS / NDX and 282 would be part of the equation.

That said I'd be very interested to hear if anyone is running a 272 active and what observations they may wish to share.

I cannot afford NDS / 552 etc ... but my to-be-collected Ovators 600's benefit strongly when configured in active mode. Think to feed the setup by a 272.

I got 272/250dr last week after some crafty work by my dealer, upgraded from a non naim system and I am blown away by the detail, punch, clarity and the ease of use. Plus it's not even run in yet! I am also driving a set of monitor audio platinum pl200s which seems a rare choice to pair but these 2 black boxes have really brought the best from them, I couldn't be happier. XPS next... once my wallet has recovered  

My foray into streaming is in its infancy, but I am liking the results.  I couldn't justify going straight to an ND5 XS (which would match the rest of my system) so have a Cambridge Audio CXN.  It is really very good and holds its own against my CD5XS+FlatcapXS in direct comparison (playing the CD I'm streaming and switching between inputs).

But I am so impressed I was thinking next step could be SN2+NDX.  Realising that the direct alternative is the 272+250DR, at least in terms of outlay this thread suggests the latter is a better approach.  However how would the 272+200DR fare?  Reason is that I would struggle with changing from my Neat Motive SX2's - anything else would be too big in our living room, and therefore do I need the extra power of the 250.  Or is it's extra grip on the speaker more the point?

Judge posted:

My foray into streaming is in its infancy, but I am liking the results.  I couldn't justify going straight to an ND5 XS (which would match the rest of my system) so have a Cambridge Audio CXN.  It is really very good and holds its own against my CD5XS+FlatcapXS in direct comparison (playing the CD I'm streaming and switching between inputs).

But I am so impressed I was thinking next step could be SN2+NDX.  Realising that the direct alternative is the 272+250DR, at least in terms of outlay this thread suggests the latter is a better approach.  However how would the 272+200DR fare?  Reason is that I would struggle with changing from my Neat Motive SX2's - anything else would be too big in our living room, and therefore do I need the extra power of the 250.  Or is it's extra grip on the speaker more the point?

To my knowledge Neat speakers have the reputation that they are easy to drive. I tried the SX1 with my humble XS2 -- no problems at all. So I would assume that the 200DR should do a marvelous job with the SX2 (which should be easier to drive than the SX1; 8 rather than 6 Ohm). 

Judge posted:

My foray into streaming is in its infancy, but I am liking the results.  I couldn't justify going straight to an ND5 XS (which would match the rest of my system) so have a Cambridge Audio CXN.  It is really very good and holds its own against my CD5XS+FlatcapXS in direct comparison (playing the CD I'm streaming and switching between inputs).

But I am so impressed I was thinking next step could be SN2+NDX.  Realising that the direct alternative is the 272+250DR, at least in terms of outlay this thread suggests the latter is a better approach.  However how would the 272+200DR fare?  Reason is that I would struggle with changing from my Neat Motive SX2's - anything else would be too big in our living room, and therefore do I need the extra power of the 250.  Or is it's extra grip on the speaker more the point?

I had a CD5i + Nait 5i into Motive 2s, followed by a CD5XS + 152/155 into Motive 2s, followed by an NDX/SN2 into Motive 2s, and the Motive 2s just kept on improving with each hardware upgrade.  However I felt that when I got to the NDX/SN2 that they started to become the weakest link in the chain.  

FWIW I chose the NDX+SN2 knowing the 272 wasn't far away but don't regret my choice at all.  In my opinion I would look at either NDX+SN2 or 272+250DR.

S3 posted:

I suspect that the investment required to go active and the fact that, as I understand it, an active set up is more revealing of any weakness in the source would mean that a 272 active set up is relatively rare.

My 272/XPSDR/250DR/SL2 set up sounds wonderful but if I decided, in time, to move to active I suspect trading in the 272 for NDS / NDX and 282 would be part of the equation.

That said I'd be very interested to hear if anyone is running a 272 active and what observations they may wish to share.

Re: 282, last month I moved from Naim DAC/282/300/SL2 to 272/300DR/SL2. For me the 272/300DR  delivers a warmer more natural sound. I suspect the combination of the 272 and DR upgrade is responsible. Rather than the 272 or 300DR Not disappointed in the least. Both systems fed with FLAC files.

Ardbeg10y posted:

Is anyone using the N272 in an Active setup? N272 --> Snaxo --> Poweramps?

As Spurrier Sucks said,i have traded my 250 dr for the xpsdr,and sold my passive speakers (Taksim's) and i now use Dynaudio XD 600's,which are active.This is much different than the way you want to "go active",i am feeding the XD's directly from the 272's digital/SPDIF out.The XD'S keep the signal in the digital domain all the way to the drivers,with built in digital amps and DSP.The end result is simply the best sound i have ever heard in my home,as if live musicians are in my room...with well recorded material,at least.

Judge posted:

But I am so impressed I was thinking next step could be SN2+NDX.  Realising that the direct alternative is the 272+250DR, at least in terms of outlay this thread suggests the latter is a better approach.  However how would the 272+200DR fare?  Reason is that I would struggle with changing from my Neat Motive SX2's - anything else would be too big in our living room, and therefore do I need the extra power of the 250.  Or is it's extra grip on the speaker more the point?

This is where you need to listen and decide for yourself. I spent a fair amount of time at my dealers doing that, and I found NDX based systems consistently sounded better than the 272, so that's what I bought. I went into the process expecting that I would probably come away with a 272, and I certainly wouldn't have been disappointed if that's what I'd bought, but to my ears, at any given price point, NDX systems just seemed to sound more musical.

Judge posted:

But I am so impressed I was thinking next step could be SN2+NDX.  Realising that the direct alternative is the 272+250DR, at least in terms of outlay this thread suggests the latter is a better approach.  However how would the 272+200DR fare?  Reason is that I would struggle with changing from my Neat Motive SX2's - anything else would be too big in our living room, and therefore do I need the extra power of the 250.  Or is it's extra grip on the speaker more the point?

Don't rule out a change to your speakers Judge. I moved from a Superuniti to a SN2/NDX (and then added XPS DR) and always thought that my living room would be out of balance with bigger speakers. But I also was sure that my Neat Motive 2's were limiting my system.

So I tried some PMC 25.23's. The first reaction both from myself and my wife was 'they seem really big' but 'wow, they sound really good' too! Once the initial reaction is assimilated into the brain and you live with the change for a week or so, it soon becomes normal.

In fact when I look at the pictures before and after, my Motives look a bit small for the room now!

Heres the post I made in System Pics to give you an idea:  https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...27#64781167027054227

Food for thought maybe?

 

Thanks for the responses.  PMC would be my first port of call if I thought I could change speakers.  I have always changed the speakers once the electronics got to a point where it was needed.  So perhaps I should continue to move toward that point through the next upgrade cycle, then see what happens...  

(Thanks for the link to the pics Chrish, I remember seeing them at the time now).

Judge posted:

Thanks for the responses.  PMC would be my first port of call if I thought I could change speakers.  I have always changed the speakers once the electronics got to a point where it was needed.  So perhaps I should continue to move toward that point through the next upgrade cycle, then see what happens...  

(Thanks for the link to the pics Chrish, I remember seeing them at the time now).

Judge, tbh, the enthusiasm I profess for the 272/250DR combo at the start of this thread was because of the sounds I heard from that amp team in combo with the PMC fact.8's. None of the other speakers I heard were any  better than OK quite frankly, but the 272/250DR's with fact.8's were musically just gripping stuff. Lightning quick, huge emotional connection, no overhang - so no 'fuzz'  getting in the way of the artistes uniqueness and expressive power. Rare in any system in my experience.  Strongly recommend an audition. 

Judge posted:

My foray into streaming is in its infancy, but I am liking the results.  I couldn't justify going straight to an ND5 XS (which would match the rest of my system) so have a Cambridge Audio CXN.  It is really very good and holds its own against my CD5XS+FlatcapXS in direct comparison (playing the CD I'm streaming and switching between inputs).

But I am so impressed I was thinking next step could be SN2+NDX.  Realising that the direct alternative is the 272+250DR, at least in terms of outlay this thread suggests the latter is a better approach.  However how would the 272+200DR fare?  Reason is that I would struggle with changing from my Neat Motive SX2's - anything else would be too big in our living room, and therefore do I need the extra power of the 250.  Or is it's extra grip on the speaker more the point?

I'm fairly new to Naim so many others are more knowledgeable. I began with NAC-N272 and NAP200DR. Loved it, but had remorse over not going with the NAP250DR.  

First, because the 272 cannot be powered by the 200DR as can say, the 202 - so that feature is wasted.  

Second, because I subsequently read that only the 200's power source for a pre such as the 202 is "DR'd".  It is my understanding that the power amp in the 200 itself - creating the signal from amp to speakers - is not "DR'd".  NAP250 has DR plus the NA009 transistors, which the NAP200 does not have.  With DR the 250 has added bigger transformer (power supply).  So, I traded up for the 250DR and my awesome dealer gave me full purchase credit for the like-new 200DR.  

The 250DR has as firm a grip on speakers at harder to drive frequencies as the easy to drive frequencies. That’s what gets better with the 250. Micro-dynamics is better. Rhythm, pace and timing is there. More ability to render spatial detail, control and rhythm. It handles everything from quiet passages to loud music with unassuming authority.  Not blowing the 200DR out of the water, mind you - the 200DR was quite good.  Just a more complete, detailed presentation and quieter noise floor with more watts and a "DR'd" signal from amp to speaker.

 

I don't think HH meant that using the 200DR was overkill with the 272. The only difference between the 200 and 200DR (apart from a small number of internal component improvements) is a DR regulator module which is used to provide 24v DC power to a suitable Naim pre-amp. As you won't be needing to use this with the 272, the difference in performance between a DR and non DR 200 will be negligible hence the recommendation for a used 200 rather than the newer (and more expensive) 200DR. 

My gears arrived today  NAC-N272 - NAP250DR and burning the midnightoil.

Been on for 5 hours and RadioParadis 320K sounds already very good, TIDAL HiFi sounds also very good a bit bright on some tracks. Listening too the new Jaco P Live on CD via analogin (CD5XS) and it's so much better then my NaitXS already. Going to be an exciting summer music wise. 

Very easy too setup...so happy.

Kenth Immerbo posted:

My gears arrived today  NAC-N272 - NAP250DR and burning the midnightoil.

Been on for 5 hours and RadioParadis 320K sounds already very good, TIDAL HiFi sounds also very good a bit bright on some tracks. Listening too the new Jaco P Live on CD via analogin (CD5XS) and it's so much better then my NaitXS already. Going to be an exciting summer music wise. 

Very easy too setup...so happy.

Congrats on the new gear,I like radio paradise 320k for the music they play,but it seems a little overcooked or bright on quite a lot of their songs.Naim radio 320k sounds superb to my ears,they play more live music,which the 272 really shines at,especially in the middle of the night here (Canada),which would be early morning in the U.K....wait until you hear it with the XPS DR.

I can say having owned a 272 from shortly after it's launch and immediately after it came stateside - it is near the top of my 0 buyers remorse pile of all equipment I have owned over the years. I think it is the best value/sound quality option NAIM provides. When I first got it I was transitioning systems and had a lowly (and thoroughly underrated) NAP 100, quickly went to a 200 which while better than 100 not mind bending upgrade then to 250DR which was a whole new ball game. Currently have NAP250DR/272/Core and it is more revealing than the numerous Linn Aktive and non-aktive configs and various other mfgs systems I have gone through. No upgraditis, it is a joy to own and would recomend it to anyone who can afford and appreciate it. LP-12 that I bought 20 some odd years ago still favorite permanent fixture in my system, but for enjoyment 272 is second Also streaming and multiroom increased my music listening by at least 3x - I have satellite QB's and that just completes the whole thing.. It's a great system - can't wait to see what they do next with the new architecture. 

HiFiman posted:

Bottom end for me but the 272/100 sounds wonderful in fact the best I have owned, 272 is one hell of a pre.

I started with the 100 on my 272.. In my opinion for the money, 100 is an unsung hero in NAIM's lineup.. I was not overly plussed when I went to a used non-DR 200 - better and still a great amp still the 100 had most of the mojo already. 250DR completed the pic.. no upgraditiis.. the 272/250DR in a midsized room is superb... Unless you have big power needs it is an A+ system.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Indeed FT, though I do find 150s  quite sensitive to rooms .. they appear to easily over power some rooms with a too dominant bass loosing some apparent speed. In a large room with plenty of space they work well.

Agree for a hybrid the N272 is very good.. certainly if you don't want or need the performance of a dedicated Naim preamp it's a very enticing option... I just wish it could let you SPDIF loop out and in to a third party DAC and DSP  if you wanted to.

Exactly, Simon!

Naim, give us that SPDIF loop in the 372!

Stefan

That's what I did.

I was expecting the main benefits to be in macro dynamics (PRaT etc.) but actually the real benefits are in increased subtly and control without loosing out anywhere else.  Yes the bass is a little tauter, but now there is quite a bit more detail across the whole spectrum; voices are more readable (i.e. words in lyrics are clearer) and instrumental timbres are better differentiated.

Whether this will be the same in your system and to your ears, and, whether for you this worth the extra of the new price of a 555 are two different questions though.  Don't forget that you also need to get a Burndy for the 555 as (unlike the XPS) it doesn't come with one as standard.  

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