It's happening: PMC Twenty.23 upgrade to Twenty5.23

I mentioned this may happen on several other threads. Wheels did not get set in motion as fast as I thought at first but it is happening. My Twenty.23s were ppicked up by the buyer today and cash changed hands and Twenty5.23s ordered.

Bit of background. It's a fairly stange upgrade in my opinion. I'm never one for the near sideways move. In general it is not cost effective. An evolutionary change is rarely satisfying compared to a revolutionary change that takes you to a different direction entirely (different brand) or a higher model in different range. But the star algined and I am in the position to get a pair of Twenty5.23s for very little indeed when the exchange rate and resale value on my current 23s was factored in.

Plus there is the well documented lack of proper demonstration facilities where I am. I love the sound of the 23s: light, neutral, unfussy to position, completely vanish when listening to music. So I really did not want to rock the boat. They don't excite my sprung floor and deliver ample everything for their size. I have commented recently that the change from 250.2 to 250.DR upset the balance of the system a bit and I didn't get the punch I had before to the extent I was considering maybe the Twenty5.24 or even Twenty5.26. However, my ears adjusted over time and frowning "that's not right" became neutral "well it is not wrong but very different" to eventually, "yeah this actually sounds more correct than before". So, bedgetary-wise I could choose a different speaker and make that revolutionary change I mentioned but ultimately, the 23s have a balance that is so right, it is was clear that another pair of new Twenty5.23s is the most likely correct option.

This is just the first post in the journey for those PMC users out there. Plenty have heard the new range side by side with the existing range at shows, but maybe not many will do such a sideways change in their own living room. It will take a while for them to arrive and longer to run in. Until then, speakerless.

Next post. Unboxing.

Original Post

Feeling Zen, you will for sure not be disappointed!

I currently have been demoing a pair of Twenty5 23's for a few weeks now and Im over the moon with them.

I have them for another couple of weeks, but Im sure they arent going back to the dealer .

My upgrade will be a big step up, so its kind of obvious. I will be interested to hear your journey though, especially as its in your own home.

Keep us posted!

When I had 23s I always thought they looked very attractive. But the new versions look so much better, with their twin transmission line exits and their new feet, which are so much nicer than the black MDF affair they had before. Perhaps the best change is dropping the biwire terminals, which gets rid of the need for jumpers to replace the awful metal links. It will be interesting to hear how the new ones sound, compared to their predecessors. Despite moving away from PMC, I really enjoyed my 23s, which are excellent speakers for all the reasons FZ highlights. 

Christopher_M posted:

Hope it all works out for you F_Z.

Talk us through the Atlas speaker wires please. They seem an unusual choice, forum-wise.

Chris

Umm not really. I used to use A5 ages ago in a non Naim system so it's not like I am not familiar with A5. But, although I have no issue with the cost of A5, I just find the Atlas Hyper 2 to be just as good or better and it just happens to cost a bit less (which really had nothing to do with it).

I think my dealer has been doing Hyper 2 instead of A5 on Naim systems ever since Hyper 2 first came out.

ps. whats the expected lead time before you will get them in Japan FZ?

My dealer didn't have any of the new version in stock and nor did PMC when I asked for the demo, but I got them within a couple of weeks despite that (albeit within the UK).

We'll see. Last I heard was 25.23 in Amarone was not a problem. I'll probably know more in a day or so.

HH, I pondered TQBlack a while back but it is only available on a punt so didn't bother. In any case, the Hyper 2 is rather good. Much much better than it's cost suggests. 

Lack of bi-wire posts is neither here nor there to me. I have no need for them now but with the old 23s I had originally planned on moving them to a dining room (in an as yet not built home) and bi-amping with a UQ2/100. Purely because it gives flexibility with lower power amps that otherwise are unsuitable. That won't happen now but I'll cross that bridge if and when I get to it.

Feeling Zen and Chris , 

I'll be very interested to hear your findings as a current twenty23 user with a 250 DR and TQ Black speaker cable . I very nearly bought some Fact 3s a few months ago but difficulty in getting a demo pair , then deciding not to follow one upgrade with another and let my 250 settle delayed that . As a PMC fan I'm really pleased theres now another option when that day comes . From what I can gather the twenty5 series are a fair step up from the twenty series (especially the 25/24s apparently) both sonically and aesthetically so they must be awesome ! 

Oh and Zen as HH points out TQB are excellent between Naim and PMC so not really a punt if you come across a deal .

Hope things work out for you both as I'm sure they will .

Peter. 

Congratulations, a very nice choice.

It was a pity I could not make 20.23 work when I got them about two years ago. Even though they are rather placement agnostic compared to other floorstanders it was an underwhelming experience. It could have been down to rest of the system or my impatience as they need quite some time to bed in. Unfortunately they had to go.. 

But, I continued to hold onto my 20.21 which I believe is a gem. My only issue with them is twin binding posts.

Never heard the new series but they should be as fantastic, especially with transmission line openings partly resembling Mr Vader’s helmet.

 

pete T15 posted:

Feeling Zen and Chris , 

I'll be very interested to hear your findings as a current twenty23 user with a 250 DR and TQ Black speaker cable . I very nearly bought some Fact 3s a few months ago but difficulty in getting a demo pair , then deciding not to follow one upgrade with another and let my 250 settle delayed that . As a PMC fan I'm really pleased theres now another option when that day comes . From what I can gather the twenty5 series are a fair step up from the twenty series (especially the 25/24s apparently) both sonically and aesthetically so they must be awesome !  

Hi Pete T15, without wishing to hijack FZ's thread, in my case I currently have Neat Motive 2's, and I was keen to demo the Twenty5.23's as my room is not large, and these appeared to fit the bill regarding aesthetics in the room. See here for before and after: 

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...78#63232625764056378

Compared to the Motive 2's the step up is a big one, as you might well imagine given the difference in size, so FZ's assessment will be very interesting to hear when his new speakers arive.

From my side, the finish is lovely. They sounded excellent straight from set up, the bass being super detailed and the mids/highs a big step up from the Motive 2's. Even my wife told me how much better they sounded, so I think Im on to a winner . I just need to have that final discussion with my wife, but Im certain they will be staying.

Looks like you have a really nice system as it is. Anyway, over to FZ for when his new speakers arrive!

I have been running PMC 20-26 for the past 18 months and use TQB cables, I agree they suit PMC speakers without a doubt. I am about to home demo the Ultra Blacks to see what they add. I will also be checking out the 25-26 at some point in the future and will report back.

Congratulations! I'm sure they won't disappoint you. I used to own 20.23 and it truly is a great speaker. In the end, they just couldn't match the much bigger (and more expensive) three way design of ATC SCM40. Anyway the new 25-line sounds very interesting. Can't wait to hear your comments about them. 

IanG posted:

Has anyone tried the new 26's ?

I heard the new 25.26 in the yearly hifi exhibition here in Helsinki. They were driven by EAR Yoshino electronics, can't remember the specific models though. Anyway, it was one of the best setups in the exhibition. The room was big but 25.26 effortlessly fill the space with sweet sound. Midrange is their strength compared to other 20-range (and probably 25-range also) models without the dedicated midrange driver. I've always liked the 20.26 also. I've heard it on many exhibitions and few times with a Naim-setup also. I can't compare them to the 25.26 out of my memory though. 

When I asked for a demo pair my dealer told me that the new Twenty5 series was proving very popular so there wasnt any stock just sitting around. They took a couple of weeks to come through and I'm in the UK.

Luckily mid October is only a couple.of weeks away, but I'm sure for you it feels like a long time. It will all be worth it FZ!

ChrisH posted:

When I asked for a demo pair my dealer told me that the new Twenty5 series was proving very popular so there wasnt any stock just sitting around. They took a couple of weeks to come through and I'm in the UK.

Luckily mid October is only a couple.of weeks away, but I'm sure for you it feels like a long time. It will all be worth it FZ!

hehe. until then I guess this makes my system into temporarily the worlds most expensive headphone amp. Since I don't have the line out adapter for the HL I need everything except the 250 just to listen to the headphones.

Arrived today!

Before

* yes the layout is strange. The TV and AV is centred in an open plan room and the stereo speakers are centered towards the sofa (I don't mix the systems). It looks odd but get over it.

During

* notice serial number less than 100 still. SN91 & 92

After... I'm knackered and going to bed. Unboxing and positioning tomorrow.

feeling_zen posted:

Arrived today!

Before

* yes the layout is strange. The TV and AV is centred in an open plan room and the stereo speakers are centered towards the sofa (I don't mix the systems). It looks odd but get over it.

During

Congratulations on your new speakers.

BTW, the layout appears perfect, when serious listening is on the agenda, the electronics are not located between the Speakers.

Enjoy your brand new Speakers!

Allante93!

 

feeling_zen posted:

Arrived today!

Before

* yes the layout is strange. The TV and AV is centred in an open plan room and the stereo speakers are centered towards the sofa (I don't mix the systems). It looks odd but get over it.

During

* notice serial number less than 100 still. SN91 & 92

After... I'm knackered and going to bed. Unboxing and positioning tomorrow.

Are those Bose cubes?! The horror!

@Chrissu, you jinxed it.

They are going back. In both boxes, customs had been too foxtrotting stupid to figure out how the packing foam went back and just chucked the spikes in the box to rattle around. The logos has been torn away from the grilles and the one that was a deal breaker was that the first one I took out, had a massive ding on the front right corner that torn away the vaneer. The ding spot exactly matches the crease in the pic above. Funny thing is that is not the one I unboxed so I can only assume they took them out and swapped boxes.

Both boxes were also punctured. If I had unboxed last night it would have been a tears before bedtime scenario for sure.

I had a pair of QAcoustics 3010 sent also for the office system and while they are mint, the box they came it was so abused that the polystrene ends had somehow been shattered. I don't even know how that happens. It's polystyrene.

Readers of my 250dr vs 300dr post will know that customs and I do not get along well at all. This certainly hasn't helped.

I've let my dealer know but gonna have to wait longer. No idea yet what the turnaround will be.

@spurrier sucks: funny you mention the Bose cubes. Yes they sound inferior even to a pair of GBP100 speakers but the bose cubes solve a problem in a way no other satellite speaker comes close to. When it comes to getting consisten surround in a really awkward room, scqueezing AV into a really tiny room, or filling a really massive room with a big sound without a big box or price tag, nothing comes close. I've installed these in churches before because they can fill the hall like a PA system. In my case I got these in 2005 when I had absolutely zero space in a dedicated AV room (Japanese homes). And I keep them now because what you cannot see in that picture is the 2.5m high window that starts on the left of the hifi rack and curves 90 degrees round the back of the sofa for 7m, or the kitchen and dining area out of the shot. When it comes to keeping the AV system seperate from the hifi (which I beleive in) wiithout noticably increasing the speaker box count in the room and coping with a swine of a room shape, the bloated cost of Bose suddenly seems like it is worth every penny.

Oh no, gutted for you FZ.

When I got mine I thought the boxes seemed not quite as sturdy as I thought/imagined They should be inbetween the foam ends (I was expecting a heavier gauge cardboard) and even mine had taken a few bumps in the middle of the boxes (luckily without damage), maybe this is just a coincidence.

Though I guess it is difficult to ensure against possible rough handling in transit by shippers & couriers / customs idiots.

Hope your replacements get sorted quickly.

So sorry to hear that FZ. Very frustrating and Big sympathy with you. About 15 years ago I had some Shahinian's imported to Japan from Australia and the boxes had been extensively 'given the customs boot' as the Aussie dealer put it. Huge foot size holes half way down both boxes so they could look inside. Fortunately, there was enough space between the cardboard and the speakers that no damage was done, but I remember being pretty amazed and outraged at the time. Sadly, not a lot you can do if customs choose to investigate heavy-handedly  though...

Japanese customs are the worst. About 10 years ago my sister sent stuff from Amazon.com gift wrapped. 

Since Amazon aren't known for selling cocaine or making stuff up on their shipping labels, it was okay right? Wrong. Honest to god, the postman delivered a bin liner filled with the books, opened cartons, torn wrapping paper and opened birthday card just loose in the bag. He was very apologetic but said it came from customs like this.

Oh no.. Was it personal import?

Normally this kind "fragile" equipment when it is addressed to distributor/reseller is not pried into by customs. If this not the wrong doing of shippers someone should get back at the people with customs on the face of this notoriety..

Hope you get fresh, untouched or undamaged ones in no time.

Yeah it was a personal import. I bought them in the UK and my dealer ordered a pair and shipped them direct to me unchecked.

After calming down a very close inspection reveals that while the boxes were abused and punctured (big holes on the side not seen) the pucture marks are not even within 40cm of the damage and there has been no retaping or disturbing of the document wallent or factory taping over the top or bottom of the boxes. This kind of indicates that the damage happened at PMC and someone (maybe work experience) also packed the foam sheets in the wrong stacking order so that the spike bolts fall through.

If so this might complicate things since the Twenty5 range is not for sale in Japan so if the damage was at PMC, I would still be on the hook for the carriage back to the UK and from the UK for a new pair. Which would be about GBP700. UPS insurance only covers the whoe shebang if this happened in transit or customs and so far the evidence is swinging strongly in the PMC factory direction.

feeling_zen posted:

@Chrissu, you jinxed it.

They are going back. In both boxes, customs had been too foxtrotting stupid to figure out how the packing foam went back and just chucked the spikes in the box to rattle around. The logos has been torn away from the grilles and the one that was a deal breaker was that the first one I took out, had a massive ding on the front right corner that torn away the vaneer. The ding spot exactly matches the crease in the pic above. Funny thing is that is not the one I unboxed so I can only assume they took them out and swapped boxes.

Both boxes were also punctured. If I had unboxed last night it would have been a tears before bedtime scenario for sure.

I had a pair of QAcoustics 3010 sent also for the office system and while they are mint, the box they came it was so abused that the polystrene ends had somehow been shattered. I don't even know how that happens. It's polystyrene.

Readers of my 250dr vs 300dr post will know that customs and I do not get along well at all. This certainly hasn't helped.

I've let my dealer know but gonna have to wait longer. No idea yet what the turnaround will be.

@spurrier sucks: funny you mention the Bose cubes. Yes they sound inferior even to a pair of GBP100 speakers but the bose cubes solve a problem in a way no other satellite speaker comes close to. When it comes to getting consisten surround in a really awkward room, scqueezing AV into a really tiny room, or filling a really massive room with a big sound without a big box or price tag, nothing comes close. I've installed these in churches before because they can fill the hall like a PA system. In my case I got these in 2005 when I had absolutely zero space in a dedicated AV room (Japanese homes). And I keep them now because what you cannot see in that picture is the 2.5m high window that starts on the left of the hifi rack and curves 90 degrees round the back of the sofa for 7m, or the kitchen and dining area out of the shot. When it comes to keeping the AV system seperate from the hifi (which I beleive in) wiithout noticably increasing the speaker box count in the room and coping with a swine of a room shape, the bloated cost of Bose suddenly seems like it is worth every penny.

Only joking. I actually started with Bose cubes. I had them for 5 years or more then got more into home theater setups. That has now turned into more stereo 2 channel which has led me to Naim. Sucks about the new speakers. Hopefully everything will work out for you. 

Jude2012 posted:

Sorry to hear about the situation, FZ.

Is there a kind of certificate that shows the person who assembled the speakers ar PMC.  ? When I got a pair of GB1s in 2010, it came with this info.

This may be of some help.  Hope you get it resolved.

Jude

 

Yeah they are assembled by the same chap who did my old 23s. But unless that person boxes them too, I suspect logistics dep is to blame. The plastic bag is punctured at the point of damage but the integrity of the carton in that area is undisturbed.

My dealer is on the case and will get it sorted. And I have the go ahead to set them up and use them until replacements can be made and shipped out. 

Not the end of the world. Though my wife went nuts when I said we have to keep the boxes until the new ones arrive. 

Pics tomorrow. A day with a wailing toddler hasn't left me with energy to get them setup tonight. The damage shouldnt be visible in pics.

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