Kudos Super 20a vs PMC 25 23

Hi all

Will be arraigning a demo of these two shortly. Looking for something that is likely to be less fussy with placement and good enough to warrant upgrades of black boxes over the years. 

Currently using NDX and Supernait2 both bare. 

Weakest link in my chain I believe to be is my current speakers, Kef R500’s. 

i like the speakers and there sound but the wife isn’t happy about there position in the room (way out from back wall and in her words “sat in the middle of the room”

many thanks

NDX/Supernait2, Kef R500’s

Original Post

Thanks guys

on another note what are people’s opinions on buying ex demo speakers as opposed to new. 

Also ignoring the listening test is both the PMC 25 23 and kudos super 20 a good enough in the long term for future black box upgrades and what is the likely point in black boxes upgrades that the speakers will warrant upgrading again. 

Cheers

I think buying ex demo speakers is a no brainer, as long as they haven't been abused, you should get a healthy discount and the full manufacturers warranty plus someone has kindly run them in for you. 

I recently bought an ex demo set of PMC 25 23 and saved about £800 on list price.

The second part of your question is more difficult to evaluate, certainly should be good for the next upgrade but will let more knowledgeable members guide you on that one.

glasnaim posted:

I think buying ex demo speakers is a no brainer, as long as they haven't been abused, you should get a healthy discount and the full manufacturers warranty plus someone has kindly run them in for you. 

I recently bought an ex demo set of PMC 25 23 and saved about £800 on list price.

The second part of your question is more difficult to evaluate, certainly should be good for the next upgrade but will let more knowledgeable members guide you on that one.

That’s my concern is how they have been run in, I have visions of being cranked up from the outset to see what they can do. 

I think if you buy from a reputable dealer this wouldn't be the case and you should be ok. In addition if you buy online you have 14 days under the consumer credit regulations to intimate your intention to return, with a further 14 days to actually return, so if your'e not happy with them send them back.

I have PMC 25.23 -- and they aren't really fussy in my view. I am no expert but PMC's ATL is said to make placement easier; and this I can confirm from my experience. Neat with down-firing ports, for instance, didn't work in our lounge. 

Popeye posted:

Thanks guys

on another note what are people’s opinions on buying ex demo speakers as opposed to new. 

Also ignoring the listening test is both the PMC 25 23 and kudos super 20 a good enough in the long term for future black box upgrades and what is the likely point in black boxes upgrades that the speakers will warrant upgrading again. 

Cheers

Having owned the previous version of the PMCs, the twenty.23, I’d say that the S20 is the better speaker and that it is a lot more upgrade-proof. They are more pricey than the PMCs but there are a few ex demo or used ones at dealers. 

The Super 20A is in an entire other class. The PMC 23 doesn't compete. 

I took  my Super 20 from a SN2 to a Nap250.2 to a Nap300, and am currently using it with a Nap500DR. I would say you're good until the Nap300 with the Super20s.

The PMC 23s, might be better served with a more powerful Bryston Amp - that's what PMC develops their speakers with.

So guys I have my first dealer demo of a few speakers at the weekend. 

I will be listening to...

PMC 25 23

Proac D20R

Spendor A6

Totem Sky Tower. 

Subject to me ears, can anyone advise if all of these speakers are actually an upgrade over and above my current Kef R500’s or are they more a sideways move?

Popeye posted:
Mercky posted:

I thought the Spendor A6 was discontinued, A7 perhaps?

Yes, sorry my mistake 

The A7’s are nice, I’m auditioning them tomorrow and hopefully getting a lend from my dealer for a few days to see how they stack up against my existing A4’s. Ironically I auditioned your Kef R500’s last year along with the pmc 25.23’s, thought the pmcs were a little bright, liked the 500’s but eventually went for the A4’s in the end 

Mercky posted:
Popeye posted:
Mercky posted:

I thought the Spendor A6 was discontinued, A7 perhaps?

Yes, sorry my mistake 

 the pmc 25.23’s, thought the pmcs were a little bright.

I thought the same in the dealer’s demo room. I am glad I gave them a chance at home — they worked beautifully in our old lounge. I hope the magic is still there when they get unpacked in the new house....

hungryhalibut posted:
Popeye posted:

Thanks guys

on another note what are people’s opinions on buying ex demo speakers as opposed to new. 

Also ignoring the listening test is both the PMC 25 23 and kudos super 20 a good enough in the long term for future black box upgrades and what is the likely point in black boxes upgrades that the speakers will warrant upgrading again. 

Cheers

Having owned the previous version of the PMCs, the twenty.23, I’d say that the S20 is the better speaker and that it is a lot more upgrade-proof. They are more pricey than the PMCs but there are a few ex demo or used ones at dealers. 

Hardly surprising. I 'm aware price isn't everything, but the excellent Kudos are the same price as the PMC 25.24 (haven't heard those, so can't judge).

Popeye posted:

So guys I have my first dealer demo of a few speakers at the weekend. 

I will be listening to...

PMC 25 23

Proac D20R

Spendor A6

Totem Sky Tower. 

Subject to me ears, can anyone advise if all of these speakers are actually an upgrade over and above my current Kef R500’s or are they more a sideways move?

Until you've heard them in your own room and system, you will never know. 

ChrisSU posted:
Popeye posted:

So guys I have my first dealer demo of a few speakers at the weekend. 

I will be listening to...

PMC 25 23

Proac D20R

Spendor A6

Totem Sky Tower. 

Subject to me ears, can anyone advise if all of these speakers are actually an upgrade over and above my current Kef R500’s or are they more a sideways move?

Until you've heard them in your own room and system, you will never know. 

That’s why I said subject to my ears Chris, the fact that all of the above are about £1000 more expensive is there likely to be more expensive parts and better engineering in all of the above of the Kefs?

My contribution here may not be useful but thought I'd post. Most of the time, impressions based on an audition at the dealers will not be the same as the listening experience at home. Also, one may find satisfaction for several months but over time, the flaws or shortcomings of the speaker may start to show up.

I used to own the PMC LB1 Signatures many years ago (bought from a local dealer) and have listened to several large PMCs at the dealers IB1 upwards. A friend used to own the EB1i and I have listened to it before (he has upgraded to large Wilson speakers several years ago). I don't have experience with the current PMC models but based on my previous experience with the old PMC models which have their own house sound, I won't be going back to the PMCs as I find the presentation to be bass heavy with a lack of detail at the top-end. That's what my friend who owned the EB1i thought as well after he upgraded to the Wilsons. In the end it's all down to personal preference so take the above with a grain of salt. 

Personally I would more inclined to pay more attention to the Proac D20R, Spendors and Kudos. 

Popeye posted:
ChrisSU posted:
Popeye posted:

So guys I have my first dealer demo of a few speakers at the weekend. 

I will be listening to...

PMC 25 23

Proac D20R

Spendor A6

Totem Sky Tower. 

Subject to me ears, can anyone advise if all of these speakers are actually an upgrade over and above my current Kef R500’s or are they more a sideways move?

Until you've heard them in your own room and system, you will never know. 

That’s why I said subject to my ears Chris, the fact that all of the above are about £1000 more expensive is there likely to be more expensive parts and better engineering in all of the above of the Kefs?

Room and system synergy trumps better engineering every time in my books. 

As already mentioned in another on-going thread. Floor-mounted speakers will (probably) be more critical in positioning and room interaction. Then (hypothetically) rear - ported will need more space from a a back wall. Unforunately, in practice nothing will be absolute and only in-house demo will really let you know what works. Fwiw, I was not able to demo speakers (limited mobility), and after alot of study, chose Harbeth 30.1 (with fingers crossed) partly from reviews and also an assumption that a front port would be less critical to placement seems to have worked for me. Any way, happy hunting ,hope You find a good match.

@ChrisSU My existing Kefs in my room where I have them work perfectly but....they are in money terms, the weakest link in my system and next on my list to upgrade. What I want to achieve is something better but more room friendly than the Kefs.
 
(I have no idea why this text has gone bold! 😂)

 

hungryhalibut posted:
Popeye posted:

Thanks guys

on another note what are people’s opinions on buying ex demo speakers as opposed to new. 

Also ignoring the listening test is both the PMC 25 23 and kudos super 20 a good enough in the long term for future black box upgrades and what is the likely point in black boxes upgrades that the speakers will warrant upgrading again. 

Cheers

Having owned the previous version of the PMCs, the twenty.23, I’d say that the S20 is the better speaker and that it is a lot more upgrade-proof. They are more pricey than the PMCs but there are a few ex demo or used ones at dealers. 

Having owned both 20.23 and 25.23, I'd not even bother extrapolating here based on just the 20.23s. The 25.23 is so fundamentally different in many areas that knowing how a 20.23 sounds doesn't give a good approximation on the newer 25.23s. 

Now whether the 25.23 is better than the 20.23 is another matter. I think it is a fair bit ahead. But the bigger problem is that they just sound so different in character from each other it can make comparing difficult.

To the OP, I'd not recommend any speaker at all. It will really be down to what dealers within travelling distance can make available. Almost any speaker in that price range should respond well the future upgrades. Mine are by a long way, the cheapest part of my system and I don't feel like they are holding back the system. I'm sure the same is true for other speakers too providing you like the sound.

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