MK 1826 Filter Sockets

I am having a complete re wire of my house done including a dedicated supply for my main Naim system . Whilst initially sceptical my spark is now fully embracing the dedicated supply element of the project. He has discovered the MK sockets with RFI filtering - does anyone have any experience/views on these please 

Original Post

A dedicated mains supply is always a good thing to have. 

There are different approaches (I have tried many over the years) but if at all possible have your electrician split the mains feed after the meter and install a dedicated consumer unit with one or more spur outlets to supply the HiFi equipment.

I have sperate spurs for source, powers supplies, power amps etc (Although some favour connecting all the components to a single outlet via a distribution block, I don't). Use 4mm or 6mm twin and earth, this lowers impedance and sounds better. My electrician also used a sperate, thicker gauge earth to the usual solid strand that's integral to twin and earth cables, linking all the earth terminals of the sockets in a star earth arrangement.

Just use a good quality consumer unit and avoid RCD's and use RCB instead if your electrician can be persuaded ( It comes down to interpretation of Part P regulations).

RFI filtering on the mains should be avoided, I cant claim to understand the science behind this (perhaps someone else might care to chip in), but the filtering does something to the mains that degrades SQ. RCD's act similarly on the mains but don't get too hung up on it, a separate consumer unit even with RCD is still going to sound better than hooking your HiFi up to the domestic ring main.

Just use good quality unswitched plugs and sockets (MK or Crabtree are good)

Hope this helps

 

 

hungryhalibut posted:

I use 10mm cables, which seem generally accepted to be the best for sound. I’d be surprised if 4 or 6 work better. 

I know from practical/empirical experience 4mm or 6mm work better than the standard 2.5 twin and earth.

In practice the heavier gauge the better but it becomes more difficult to install. I used to run a system from a single 10mm spur with good results but I find the arrangement described in my last post sounds better, I agree 10mm would probably sound even better, however its not realistically practical in many situations/environments.

And then there's the issue of finding a Part P (In UK) qualified electrician who doesn't think your stark raving mad and willing to carry out and issue the appropriate Part P certification. Without which one will be venturing in to dangerous waters as home insurance may be invalidated.

We are probably sailing close to the wind in regard to forum rules on this subject as well

On the topic of dedicated mains. I have a dedicated line from a secondary circuit breaker to a receptacle with 2 plugs for my system. I will be in need of 2 additional sockets. Can I have the electrician simple daisy chain and additional outlet to the existing?

jsaudio posted:

On the topic of dedicated mains. I have a dedicated line from a secondary circuit breaker to a receptacle with 2 plugs for my system. I will be in need of 2 additional sockets. Can I have the electrician simple daisy chain and additional outlet to the existing?

You should perhaps mention your location, which appears to be in the US looking at your profile. Advice that applies in the UK may be incorrect, or even illegal elsewhere. 

ChrisSU posted:
jsaudio posted:

On the topic of dedicated mains. I have a dedicated line from a secondary circuit breaker to a receptacle with 2 plugs for my system. I will be in need of 2 additional sockets. Can I have the electrician simple daisy chain and additional outlet to the existing?

You should perhaps mention your location, which appears to be in the US looking at your profile. Advice that applies in the UK may be incorrect, or even illegal elsewhere. 

Absolutely!

Many moons ago a European forum member posted on a similar thread advice which he claimed was within the applicable regs. It may have sounded good but was potentially lethal and certainly would have been illegal here in UK and I'm sure pretty much anywhere else.

hungryhalibut posted:

I use 10mm cables, which seem generally accepted to be the best for sound. I’d be surprised if 4 or 6 work better. 

As a footnote to my previous response;

It is difficult to terminate 10mm cable with a socket outlet as the terminals are often too small. This often requires a few strands of the 10mm cable to be cut back to make the whole small enough to fit the terminal. This contravenes regulations and possibly dangerous/illegal

Thanks for the feedback folks - interestingly the MK Spec Sheet specifically calls out Hi-Fi and AV as one of the use cases !

A range of sockets in the Logic Plus style, designed to combat interference to or data losses on sensitive electrical products and systems due to mains borne voltage spikes and RFI. Such systems include:

 Computer or microprocessor based equipment

 Telecommunications systems

 Electronic measurement equipment

 Cash registers

 Audio visual and hi-fi equipment

These products can be quickly installed as replacements for existing twin 13 amp sockets or in a new installation.
Two earth terminals on each product enable use in installations complying with regulation 607 (High Integrity Earthing) of BS 7671 IEC Wiring Regulations.

6mm mains for me as this was already in the wall and use to power my electric cooker before I moved the kitchen and it has it's own RCD all that was needed was the install of unswitched MK sockets.

As stated above I would stay away from any mains filtering.

LP Terrysmi posted:

Thanks for the feedback folks - interestingly the MK Spec Sheet specifically calls out Hi-Fi and AV as one of the use cases !

A range of sockets in the Logic Plus style, designed to combat interference to or data losses on sensitive electrical products and systems due to mains borne voltage spikes and RFI. Such systems include:

 Computer or microprocessor based equipment

 Telecommunications systems

 Electronic measurement equipment

 Cash registers

 Audio visual and hi-fi equipment

These products can be quickly installed as replacements for existing twin 13 amp sockets or in a new installation.
Two earth terminals on each product enable use in installations complying with regulation 607 (High Integrity Earthing) of BS 7671 IEC Wiring Regulations.

But they don't mention that this kind of filtering degrades SQ. In most cases a dedicated mains supply will be significantly less prone to RFI anyway. Imagine all that copper wiring circulating your home as a ring main acting like a big radio frequency aerial. On top of that all manner of domestic appliances polluting the ring main with unwanted noise and distortions that negatively affect the SQ of your system.

Tackle the cause, not the symptom. Use a dedicated supply from a dedicated consumer unit/fuse board to isolate your HiFi from the noisy domestic ring. One shouldn't then need or desire to use filtering devices that will to some degree undo the benefits of a dedicated supply.

Thanks Dreadatthecontrols - i ask this question to learn and be educated , not to challenge . In what way does it degrade the SQ?.

My spark found this socket in good faith and so if i am going to say "No" id like to be able to go back and explain why . As per my original post I am having a dedicated supply installed. 

Look forward to your response and thanks in advance 

 

Dreadatthecontrols posted:
hungryhalibut posted:

I use 10mm cables, which seem generally accepted to be the best for sound. I’d be surprised if 4 or 6 work better. 

As a footnote to my previous response;

It is difficult to terminate 10mm cable with a socket outlet as the terminals are often too small. This often requires a few strands of the 10mm cable to be cut back to make the whole small enough to fit the terminal. This contravenes regulations and possibly dangerous/illegal

A standard MK Logic unswitched socket will accept 10mm T&E cable. With a deep back box and neat cable dressing, a competent electrician will be able to fit it. It’s not significantly harder than fitting 10, or even 16mm cable into a cooker point. 

To prove a point, I once managed to fit two 10mm cables into a terminal on an MK socket, to see if I could run two off the same circuit. It was a tight fit, but with a bit of persistence they went in. 

NNoTerrysmi posted:

Thanks Dreadatthecontrols - i ask this question to learn and be educated , not to challenge . In what way does it degrade the SQ?.

My spark found this socket in good faith and so if i am going to say "No" id like to be able to go back and explain why . As per my original post I am having a dedicated supply installed. 

Look forward to your response and thanks in advance 

 

No problem Terry.

I haven't tried the MK socket specifically but many years ago there were some mains plugs on the market that were being touted in the HiFi press and some dealers.

I auditioned these and they made my music sound uninvolving, bland and lacking in dynamics. They simply strangled the performance.

As I said earlier, although I don't know or claim to know the exact science, its widely accepted that such filtering devices have unwanted side effects, throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

As someone else has already pointed out, if they were any good they would be in widespread use amongst audiophiles, they are not.

I am sure your electrician is doing his best to be helpful but these things are not widely understood.

I think the MK filtered socket is considerably more expensive than a standard one. Dont take my word for it, or the consensus on this thread, if you want to try the filtered socket why not first use a relatively inexpensive standard unswitched one for a while then change it for the filtered one. I wager you will be disappointed and have wasted the extra cost of the filtered socket.

ChrisSU posted:
Dreadatthecontrols posted:
hungryhalibut posted:

I use 10mm cables, which seem generally accepted to be the best for sound. I’d be surprised if 4 or 6 work better. 

As a footnote to my previous response;

It is difficult to terminate 10mm cable with a socket outlet as the terminals are often too small. This often requires a few strands of the 10mm cable to be cut back to make the whole small enough to fit the terminal. This contravenes regulations and possibly dangerous/illegal

A standard MK Logic unswitched socket will accept 10mm T&E cable. With a deep back box and neat cable dressing, a competent electrician will be able to fit it. It’s not significantly harder than fitting 10, or even 16mm cable into a cooker point. 

To prove a point, I once managed to fit two 10mm cables into a terminal on an MK socket, to see if I could run two off the same circuit. It was a tight fit, but with a bit of persistence they went in. 

That's great if you was able to achieve it, as I said before though its not always practical depending on ones own particular situation and I prefer multiple spurs over a single.

The older MK socket if one can find them are better for this kind of application as they had much larger circular terminals and more robust grub screws enabling use of thicker cables.

I have in the past tried two 10mm into the newer logic socket but found that this tended to over stress the terminal

Dreadatthecontrols posted:
NNoTerrysmi posted:

Thanks Dreadatthecontrols - i ask this question to learn and be educated , not to challenge . In what way does it degrade the SQ?.

My spark found this socket in good faith and so if i am going to say "No" id like to be able to go back and explain why . As per my original post I am having a dedicated supply installed. 

Look forward to your response and thanks in advance 

 

No problem Terry.

I haven't tried the MK socket specifically but many years ago there were some mains plugs on the market that were being touted in the HiFi press and some dealers.

I auditioned these and they made my music sound uninvolving, bland and lacking in dynamics. They simply strangled the performance.

As I said earlier, although I don't know or claim to know the exact science, its widely accepted that such filtering devices have unwanted side effects, throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

As someone else has already pointed out, if they were any good they would be in widespread use amongst audiophiles, they are not.

I am sure your electrician is doing his best to be helpful but these things are not widely understood.

I think the MK filtered socket is considerably more expensive than a standard one. Dont take my word for it, or the consensus on this thread, if you want to try the filtered socket why not first use a relatively inexpensive standard unswitched one for a while then change it for the filtered one. I wager you will be disappointed and have wasted the extra cost of the filtered socket.

Apologies. I meant to say mains plugs with similar surge and RFI "protection" too late to edit

Hi, there is nothing wrong with RF and surge filtering mains, but as always the key thing it depends on how it is done. Done simply and in a small space it is likely to have unintended consequences like affecting the the source and load impedance and cause that ‘robbing power’ or ‘Sapping the life out of music’ effect. To do well typically will require a fair amount of physical space and I can’t see how it could fit in a mains socket. A good intro to mains filtering, how it works, and the possible unintended side effects.

http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/mains/filters1.html

On a related matter, it concerns me a little that sockets with built in USB charging points might not be doing wonders for your mains quality. These presumably have a small SMPS or two squeezed into every fitting. Very convenient, but in a large house this could add dozens of noisy power supplies to the mains. 

Dreadatthecontrols posted:

...and those devices that allow one to use the mains wiring to connect a home computer network

To be honest, these are the truly awful villains. By design they superimpose a  wide bandwidth set of radio carriers on to the mains. The pollution using them with standard mains wiring is shocking .... and this is both conducted, and hardly surprisingly, radiated (its kind of what RF does.. ie radio). Therefore I hardly need to explain that even the best RF mains filtering in the world won’t prevent the radiated RFI from those devices.

I often question why people are happy to spend thousands on audio equipment and scoff at the idea that it can be affected by the "quality" of the mains.

As time goes on and more and more polluting devices are introduced to our homes and mains power it is becoming fundamentally important for good SQ to do whatever is reasonably practical to combat the problem.

In my view some form of dedicated mains power is essential especially for high end systems but for lesser equipment as well. Problem is that although it gives a significant improvement it only gets you part of the way. RFI is everywhere obviously not just physically on the mains but radiating the atmosphere, messing up our audio and probably damaging our health.

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