Snaic & Burndy Close Together

In the User Manual for the 252 & 552 it states that for best performance, the 5-5 snaic and Burndy cables linking the preamp to the psu should be run as close as possible, for best performance.

Having tried the cables both apart and strapped together, I can indeed confirm that performance does indeed lift when the two cables are as close as possible

Out of curiosity:

(1) Why/How come?

(2) why then, are they manufactured as seperate cables?

(3) conventional "wisdom" (regarding power and signal cables)suggests that separation is desirable

Also, would the above also apply to the (olive)52/scap?....there is no mention in the 52 manual of this cable proximity......I haven`t tried it with a 52/scap (mine is out of my system at the moment)...perhaps some 52/scap owners out there might like to try this & report back? (maybe some already have tried this....in which case what were the findings???)


laurie
Original Post
Laurie,

Have you tried running the 5 pin SNAIC next to/close to the Burndey, without the use of the tie wraps? You may find you prefer it!

Keeping the 5 pin SNAIC as close as practically possible to the Burndey will improve the sound of a 552, 252 and the 52 too. I'd suggest keeping the locking collars tight on this SNAIC too, wheras all other SNAICS are beter of loose in my opinion. As far as I've found so far, this is the only occasion where two leads benefit from being run close together, all other leads like to be separated and "hang loose and free"! Smile

I'd be interested to hear anyone elses observations/comments on lead dressing etc.

Kind regards,

Peter
quote:
Originally posted by Cymbiosis:
I'd suggest keeping the locking collars tight on this SNAIC too, wheras all other SNAICS are beter of loose in my opinion.Peter


Peter
As usual...thanks for the little pointers on setup. Your presence on this forum is invaluable ... and after a brief absence I return to see the new Trade Member status. Maybe some dissenters will now be happier.


Regards
Gregg
Peter

quote:
Have you tried running the 5 pin SNAIC next to/close to the Burndey, without the use of the tie wraps? You may find you prefer it!



thanks for the reply

If I remove the tie-wraps then the stiffness of the cables makes it difficult to "stay where put"..ie they won`t stay close together without some form of restraint

I am using the minimum number of tie-wraps..5 in total and have been careful about overtightening them as I suspect that this might distort the "cable bundle" which I guess would be detrimental.(Is this what you were alluding to in your comments?)

The big surprise here for me is that it would appear to be of benefit to the 52 (mine is now in "god`s waiting room" having been surplanted by a 552)

I all the (10+) years of my 52 ownership I never once heard of this "upgrade"......even during numerous conversations with Naim......so it would seem that during all this time the 52 still had more to give than I was getting from it....blast!!!!!

I would love to hear from any current 52 owners if this simple tweak is effective

I could try it myself but that would necessitate un-installing the 552...not something to be undertaken lightly!!

laurie
quote:
I'd be interested to hear anyone elses observations/comments on lead dressing etc.


Hi Peter,

Lots of things to do with cables and their positioning makes a difference.

Some of the obvious are keeping signal leads off stands (especially speakers), away from power leads, not coiling cables, and a few other power related considerations. (which can't be discussed)

I haven't tried locking the SNAIC Din on the 552 to 552PS, but it does run as close to the Burndy as possible.

I'll let you know how the plug goes.

Craig
From the horse's (Roy G) pen:

"Every part of our space is riddled with electrical and magnetic fields, mainly from technological sources (such as mains transformers, motors, high speed pcb's, etc.). These will create interfering voltages over the length of the cables. In the case of the cables for the 252 and 552 preamps, passing them through the same path in space creates similar disturbances across both cables so reducing the interference-induced voltage difference between them at the preamp. The preamp works best if this difference is minimised.

We use two separate cables, one connecting analogue power supplies and the other digital, lighting and control voltages, to reduce the interference of the latter on the former. The degradation resulting from passing all these power supplies down one cable outweighs the benefit.

Incidentally, we wouldn't recommend strapping the cables together, for microphonic reasons, only running them beside each other."

Which may provide some enlightment.
quote:
Incidentally, we wouldn't recommend strapping the cables together, for microphonic reasons, only running them beside each other."



Thanks Adam

your explanation makes a lot of sense and more or less corresponds to the notion of an "earth loop" often encountered with high gain phono stages

Because of the stiffness and space contraints in my own setup, it is near impossible to run them close without some form of restraint ie cable ties. I guess it`s going to have to be a compromise. I have certainly noticed an overall improvement by using 5 loosely pulled tyraps, though as you suggest, using more would probably produce problems of microphony

Life is never simple......



regards

laurie

PS I would be interested to hear from any 52 owners who have tried this tweak
quote:
Originally posted by craig sidwell:

Hi Peter,

Lots of things to do with cables and their positioning makes a difference.

I haven't tried locking the SNAIC Din on the 552 to 552PS, but it does run as close to the Burndy as possible.

Craig


Thank you Adam (Roy) for that explanation - interesting.

All I know, is that my "let them hang loose and hang free" approach as mentioned in several other threads, thus far has always seemed to sound best. The only two cables I run close together (as practical without restraints) are the preamp Burndey and it's power only SNAIC which I tighten*. This is the only SNAIC I tighten.

FYI, When cabling a populated Fraim, I start with the Burndies first, then the SNAICS then any Geddon or Lingo feeds etc, then the speaker cables. Then finally the mains, keeping it well away from all other cables. If there is to be contact between cable to cable or cable to Fraim, I minimise this as much as is possible (With the one exception of * above). It is just about possible to have everything hanging there if spacing and layout is planned. However given a choice, depending on box count, I find a two Fram set up the easiest to achive good cable dressing. A single can be tricky and with a three, sometimes it's a real balancing act allowing for the cable lengths.....All good fun though, but time consuming. Definately worth it in the end though Smile

One other thing.......I've had a few customers tie wrap their speaker cables together for neatness...Bi-wires, bi-amped active, tri-amp active etc. DON'T PLEASE!....if you cut the wraps and part the cable a little, sit back and listen, you'll hear what I mean! (they don't need to be parted by much to hear a big improvement. You may find greater parting is better but at the expense of WAF Eek So up to the individual on this!

Hope the above reads ok, as hurridly written whilst getting the kids breakfast Roll Eyes

I'll clarify points if anyone requires it.

TTFN

Peter
Hello Peter,

My dealer advocates laying all mains cables together and tying them with soft velcro wraps.
It really seems to be a balancing act with regard to the signal cables. The most sensitive piece of gear is the Snaxo 2-4, it does not like being near anything else!

The contribution of experienced dealers like yourself is IMO very very welcome.

Cheers

Bob
Hi Bob,


Ilan, in Haifa gave me some soft velcro wraps to try recently as he uses them alot. I must "fess up" and say I haven't had chance to see what effect they may have or not just yet.

Erik,

I know what you mean about these Burndies being stiff, but I use this to my advantage when dressing them. In fact the 300/500 Burndies being softer and more pliable cause me more "fun"! Geoff P has an interseting idea in order to keep these from touching the ground.....he uses polystyrene spacers. I've also seen sections of central heating pipe insulation used in the same way by Poger Poll. Both systems work very well.

My feeling is that the better you can mechanically isolate the cables the better....within reason and whatever is practical for you.

I have my 555 Burndies running away from each other here in the shop, with the sockets being the closest point, this is because I realstically only have enough space for one tall Fraim. However when with two Fraims, one for the brain and one for the brawn, I generally try and run them side by side (as you pretty much have to) but at the greatest separation I can achieve, while keeping them loose and free.

Hope this explains well enough? Confused

Kind regards,

Peter
quote:
Originally posted by Adam Meredith:
From the horse's (Roy G) pen:

We use two separate cables, one connecting analogue power supplies and the other digital, lighting and control voltages, to reduce the interference of the latter on the former. The degradation resulting from passing all these power supplies down one cable outweighs the benefit.

Incidentally, we wouldn't recommend strapping the cables together, for microphonic reasons, only running them beside each other."

Which may provide some enlightment.


Well, err..., no, actually - it seems a little contradictory (?)

Keith
Surely it means next to each other but not actually touching...

The angle of the dangle is easily arranged on the 52 and S/cap at least beacause the two plugs on each piece are about and inch and half apart, which seems to allow the cables to be easily next to each other but not touching at all without any special amount of effort, beyond gently shaping the Burndy flex so it fits nicely. That is how I did it in the old days, and when my retailer saw it he congratulated me on getting it right at the follow up, "check out the set-up session."

Kindest regards from Fredrik
quote:
Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
Surely it means next to each other but not actually touching...
Kindest regards from Fredrik


Yes Fredrik, I hope my 4th paragraph from my 09:28 post above explains this?

Sorry Roger! Eek .......Quite funny though! Probably describes me better than you though, I think Big Grin - Please blame the arrival of the former Rega Rep, Chris, at my shop early this morning for my proof-reading fopar! Roll Eyes

Back on subject; Happy to clarify any cable dressing hints later this evening if required? .....After I've had some time with Mr Polarbear's system! I may be a while on this Winker


Kind regards,

Peter
Dear Peter,

Seeing your post gave me the courage to make the post just above! Thanks. Really the answer is obvious from the simple layout of sockets, once one knows the official line on it.

ATB from Fredrik

PS: I shall not make the SN day now. I have a job again! Yeheee! Another time perhaps?
congratulations Fredrik, welcome back to the fold of the taxpayer !

Hopefully it is something interesting. None of my business really but I did wonder if you ever tried to do anything still in the music-line e.g private music teacher. Passion allied to knowledge goes a long way in such a professsion.

Anyhow I hope it works out.
Ian
quote:
Originally posted by Cymbiosis:


Erik,

I know what you mean about these Burndies being stiff, but I use this to my advantage when dressing them. In fact the 300/500 Burndies being softer and more pliable cause me more "fun"! Geoff P has an interseting idea in order to keep these from touching the ground.....he uses polystyrene spacers. I've also seen sections of central heating pipe insulation used in the same way by Poger Poll. Both systems work very well.

My feeling is that the better you can mechanically isolate the cables the better....within reason and whatever is practical for you.

I have my 555 Burndies running away from each other here in the shop, with the sockets being the closest point, this is because I realstically only have enough space for one tall Fraim. However when with two Fraims, one for the brain and one for the brawn, I generally try and run them side by side (as you pretty much have to) but at the greatest separation I can achieve, while keeping them loose and free.

Hope this explains well enough? Confused

Kind regards,

Peter


Peter, thanks for your answer. I have spent a lot of time experimenting with cable dressing and placement on my two Fraim stacks. I have found it essential that the burndies doesn't touck the floor or each other, nor the fraim, in that order. I have also found this more importent than a division into brain/brawn.
The dressing and placement are more or less impossible to get totally right so today I have brains and brawns on the same Fraim and have managed to get the cable dressing really good and finds this to be tha best for me.
I also find booth the 552 and 555 to performe best on top of the rack, another argument for me to mix brains/brawns.

/Erik
>>PS I would be interested to hear from any 52 owners who have tried this tweak[/QUOTE]<<

Hi,

While reading with interest as usual, saw this conversation here..., yes, I have the burndy and snaic 52/Scap interconnects running close and parallel, probably they touch each other at some point. - I will look at it this afternoon-, I think it is like that since year 2003 or so, when I sent the 52ps to Salisbury for conversion to a supercap and it was then, suggested/recommended by the factory, plus some unbundled of cables in the innards of the head unit.

Since the whole change was kind of new, I could tell you obviously it was a good upgrade.

…But…then since 2 weeks I have the hi-line connected there...at the source... I will recommended for the olive kit. At least in the context of the setup. (see my ref public profile)

best regds

naimly yours

efrain
Peter,

Thanks for sharing your setup secrets with us. The next time I rebuild my system I'll have a crack at it. Currently it is a mix of spaghetti that is best kept out of sight (and mind). An active system does seem to create a hell of a cable mess, especially when tuner, CD and preamp all come with their own PS.

Cheers, Jens
quote:
Originally posted by Erik:

Peter,
The dressing and placement are more or less impossible to get totally right so today I have brains and brawns on the same Fraim and have managed to get the cable dressing really good and finds this to be tha best for me.
I also find booth the 552 and 555 to performe best on top of the rack, another argument for me to mix brains/brawns.

/Erik


Yes Erik, that's a good point. The 552 sounds better if it can be located on the top of a Fraim if possible. I also find the CD555 head is less troubled by sitting on the brawn Fraim than the 552. So I suggest that unless you are already doing this anyway, it's worth a try? The 552 likes to be kept as far away as is practically possible from other components. An empty Fraim shelf below it really helps! - I remember doing this "extra level" demo round at Andy C's, when we were having one of our Leicester/Notts Forum Riders events. The assembled members were very suprised at the improvement in sound the addition of a level made..... most just laughed with suprise! Big Grin

The thing is, Andy C has a 252 and not a 552, so I'd say it's something you can try with any Naim pre-amp and see what happens. Relatively speaking this is a cheap and easily tested upgrade.

Kind regards,

Peter
Richard,

Taking pictures of the rear of one's Fraim.... Eek That's a challenge ..... should get some interesting photos! Um, where's Kuma?

If there is a demand for pictures as well as words, I could rustle up some "workmanlike" photo's if there is enough interest?

I suppose the question should be : Which cables cause the biggest headache when trying to dress them? That could be a good starter. Or, how about a single Fraim cable layout and a double one....... let's keep it simple (passive) please, as with so many variables, it really is the proveriable "can of worms". Maybe this is why I haven't seen any pictures?

Thoughts anyone?

Regards,

Peter
quote:
Originally posted by Cymbiosis:
quote:
Originally posted by glevethan:

Maybe a job for Naim headquarters ?

Gregg


Maybe? But I'm happy to snap some set-ups as and when time allows.

Kind regards,

Peter


Having just rebuilt my two Fraim stacks this afternoon, with help over the phone from Peter at Cymbiosis when I finished but got no sound Eek.

Having followed this thread earlier this morning,during the rebuild I snaked my Snaic around the Burndy in a very light form of binding to keep them together.

Peter identified my problem straight away over the phone, it was that old 300 problem of getting the 4 pin din plugs the wrong way around between the P/S and the 300, which results in zero sound. Now sorted Winker

Thanks Peter, looking forward to some Pork Pie on Thursday, lots of English mustard please.

Regards

Flyfisher
quote:
Originally posted by flyfisher:
with help over the phone from Peter at Cymbiosis ...during the rebuild I snaked my Snaic around the Burndy in a very light form of binding to keep them together.
Flyfisher


Peter

Since I might do some rebuilding is this recommended?

Gregg
Hi Gregg,

When I recently rebuilt my fraim stack I did the spiral wind thing, and I can't hear any negative effects from doing so. I guess the only way I will find out is to unravel the cables and try again - but that is such a clart on, so I will leave things as they are - unless Peter comments that it is not a good idea.

Cheers

Rob
Hi,

I would say that although the two cables want to be as close together as possible, I don't think the spiraling round of the SNAIC around the Burndey is a particularly good idea. My gut feeling is that they will sound better un wound, but as close as possible. Generally, one wants to try and minimise physical contact between cables, but in the case of these two, have them as close as is practical, but avoid them being too intimate with each other!

Rob,

Perhaps you'd be so kind as to try unspiraling this cable and reporting back your findings please?


Kind regards,

Peter
Likes (1)
bicela
×
×
×
×