LP12 Radikal Problem

I'm guessing the mober does have this issue also..

I do own the mober ..but don't use a base of any kind..but I remember on fitting the motor that I thought " you can see it hanging down quite low"

At the end of the day...it's still a maxon motor in a case so it will be very similar to Linn's version

Silence from Linn on this one is deafening. The Radikal is seriously expensive (as is the LP12). Why not give all Trampolin owners, who also have a Radikal, a re-engineered Trampolin that has correct clearance? Then gather all the old ones, respray them and ship them with the Majik as standard, which would be a seriously appealing upgrade.

Linn need to reclaim their integrity for the LP12 for it to flourish in the future.

JoexNaim posted:

Silence from Linn on this one is deafening. The Radikal is seriously expensive (as is the LP12). 

Linn need to reclaim their integrity for the LP12 for it to flourish in the future.

My meaning with this thread was to inform everybody here who has an LP12 (and they are alot) about this problem,what you do when you know about the problem is up to you.

But I can see, that the information already has give some members here,who has Radikal/Trampolin better soundquality from their LP12's....THATS GOOD. Many here has also send me a mail and got more information that way.  I take it that way, because my small "Stalker-group",think this very,very IMPORTENT INFORMATION to you,the members who maybe has this problem is annoying,irksome 😉🤮.

◾ This is the biggest SCANDAL in the LP12's history,and has going on in so many years.....the LP12 on Klimax-level, cost in Sweden around € 25 000:-.

Think the car-industri,if they have a problem with some car-model,they take it back and solve the problem....BUT,... this has, to this date NOT happend with this famous expensive turntable. You should be chocked, if I tell you all I know about this LP12-issue, and the response from Linn.

I'm busy now,but later (in a couple of days), I can give a little more information about/around this subject in this thread.....IF,...my "Stalker-group" can stay away from this,my thread.

/Peder🙂 

Moderated Post:  Peder, please do not post email addresses either on threads, in public profile or in wall posts.  All is publicly viewable and therefore it is not safe to post such information.  I will remove any such email addresses when I see them to ensure the safety of members. furthermore please take heed of forum rules.  It would appear that this issue is taking on something of an agenda for you.  If it continue to develop in this way I will have no option but to remove the thread in its entirety as this contravenes forum rules.  The Naim forum is not to be used for such purposes.  I would advise  you to take the issue up with Linn directly rather than try to use Naim's forum as a platform for potential campaign. Thank you.

Richard,.....shit,I thought that only members could see the Wall info. If all is publicly viewable than,....THANK YOU for taking it away.

No not an agenda,I have give the information so all members can check their players. The information I talk about now, that I can write about in a couple of days,is different ways if you for yourself will fix the problem.

/Peder🙂 

As I’ve said before it’s not touching my base. The are times even with dealer fits that a cable if not properly routed around the inside of the plinth can become trapped under the motor and cause issues. As memory serves I think that Peter Swain has some of the botches in his LP12 rogues gallery.

Ravenswood10 posted:

As I’ve said before it’s not touching my base. The are times even with dealer fits that a cable if not properly routed around the inside of the plinth can become trapped under the motor and cause issues. As memory serves I think that Peter Swain has some of the botches in his LP12 rogues gallery.

Indeed, I have lots of pictures of lot's and lot's of things......................

However, it's worth pointing out that personally (and to be very clear on this, I am not commenting on behalf of anyone other than myself) I have only come across the issue Peder describes once with a factory plinthed client deck in the past 6-7 years since the launch of the Radikal - It was a late 70s Afro plinth and as you can imagine/realise, I see a lot of LP12s.

Just to add, I have also had one report recently from a client who I know and respect who sets-up his own LP12 these days, reporting the same issue but that's it. At  present I know of no other Trampolin 2 contact situations following the 45 degree rotation of the Trampolin 2 foot fixing some 6 years ago and as Ravenswood points out; care needs to be taken with cable routing for sure, as there is not much space spare but it should be sufficient.

Hope this clarifies the issue and also the magnitude of the issue as reported here.

If any owner is concerned about the possibility of contact between their Trampolin 2 and Radikal motor, I suggest they contact their Linn retailer for a check so as their mind can be put at rest.

 

Regards,

Peter Swain

I’d tend to agree and would encourage the OP, although well intended, not to be so alarmist. Yes there may have been one or two folk with issues but not on the scale supposed. I’ve bought into Linn since the 1980s and feel sure that if there was a generic problem that they would have acted on it by now.

.......also why isn’t this on the Linn forum?

Hello again 🙂

Have to respond to Peter Swain and other people's posts.This is a long post 😌.

Some think I shouldn't be so alarming when I talk about the problem, but,... this is a BIG problem.
And on a turntable that are so expensive, this is an alarming problem,.. As it also seems to have existed already 2010 (see Alto's post here in the thread).
The sentence is just that all of you here, who have an LP12 with Radikal/Trampolin2, should know about this and be able to control your players..... themselves or at your dealer.

Let me first say, and also be very clear on this,... I have the highest respect for Peter Swain (Cymbiosis), have also talked to him a few years ago, if he wants to come to us in northern Sweden and put his magical hands on our LP12's.
Peter is also careful to point out that he only describes his experience,... how many LP12's he discovered with this problem.
One in 6-7 years, as well as a customer who screws in his LP12 himself.

Here in Sweden we have completely different figures, and even in the US it seems.
But first, let me introduce our best here in Sweden at LP12's setups.

◾ Karl Ehrenholm,...one of two owners of Linn-store High Fidelity in Stockholm since 1994. But Karl has worked there since 1989.
Karl is very famous and respected by Linn HQ... he made for example his own Keel a year before Linn released their Keel.

Karl's father has machines so he can do this.It was so good that a friend of him still has it in his LP12.

He has also made many other discoveries that Linn has implanted.
He has never written on forums, and is therefore not as famous outside Sweden,... as Peter Swain, for example.... but without having compared, so is probably both Karl and Peter on the same level. It's 1000 km from us to Stockholm,but many of us take our players to Karl for a proper setup.

Linn invites a group of about 8 of the best merchants once a year,... Karl is always invited, presuming that Peter Swain is also part of that group.

◾ Fredrik Lejonklou,...old Linn trader since the end 80 century. Now manufacturers with he's own pre/power etc range (Lejonklou Hifi) that has reached world renown..... also has English retailers etc.
LP12 Specialist, who is at the same extreme level as Karl.
Also travel around the world, at Hifi-Shows and visit customers and install LP12's and system installations etc.

Both Karl and Fredrik became aware of this LP12 problem in the spring/summer of 2017, when Per in our group discovered this.

🔸The LP12's they checked after that time,both have said, that 60% have had this problem. These are completely different figures than Peter has.🔸 

Fredrik wrote like this,...(I wrote earlier that I have permission from Fredrik to use his writing).......Fredrik wrote.....
🔹 I'm thinking maybe ya'll don't quite get the magnitude of this.

So many LP12-related mysteries of the past that are now most like explained by this problem.

The difference between when the motor remains on the trampoline foot and when it's not is like the difference between a mediocre vinyl session with a slight headache and a magical night of intense emotions when you just have to play one more album.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Fredrik also wrote.....
🔹 I have a growing suspicion that those who label this problem as "rare", either don't understand it, or don't know how to check it.

I find the most reliable way is to check with a 30 × 300 mm strip of thin paper. If it gets stuck when the LP12 is standing on its feet, you have the problem.

----------------------------------------------------------

◾ Thomas O'Keefe,..(nickname ThomasOK on forums) from USA, .... Linn retailer,LP12 specialist since 1978. A manufacturer, distributor, retailer.... very well known and respected on various forums....as well as an LP12 specialist.
I have talked to Thomas some week ago,reason,... I asked him if I got to use his writing too....... which I got.

Both Frederick and ThomasOK writes the better English than I,...that's why 😉.

ThomasOK writes this,and replies to Fredrik,......
🔹 I'm going to have to agree with Fredrik here, that the problem is like more prevalent than most realized, including myself. I don't have any numbers at this point to quantify it but I do have an interesting story.

It was a little bit slow at the store today, and I was fresh out of LP12s to work on. Then I remembered that I wanted to look at the store Climax LP12, as I haven't been thrilled with its performance for a while. So I popped it into the jig, unfastened the Urika, put the paper strip on top of the foot under the radical motor and screwed that corner and a few other screws back in, then took it out of the jig and set it on the counter. You guessed it, the paper didn't ' t want to budge. So out to the hardware store for some more wood strips (I stocked up a bit this time) and I performed the MoD on the LP12. Before I fastened it back on I checked the suspension but all was OK there. Torqued the set screw on the arm pillars and the ground connection to the Urika and fastened it all together. Wow! The musical improvement is anything but subtle. Even on the first track I played, which didn't ' t have much bass, there was obviously improved flow and texture, easily more tuneful. Then playing some tracks with a fair bit going on in the bass the bass power, timing and resolution was in a completely different league. So This is something that anyone with a Radikal and Urika or Trampolin should investigate.

To give you an idea of how much this hampers the sound,I should mention that Linn held an event here a little over a month ago with a Linn Lounge preceded by a session on the history of the LP12 with some demonstrations. In The demos the Climax LP12 was compared with a Majik LP12 through a Uphorik. While the audience most heard the improvement in clarity of the Climax LP12 there was actually one person who preferred the Majik! All of us here noticed that the Climax LP12 was definitely not clobbering the Majik like it should have, and I thought there was something nice to the flow if the Majik, although I didn't ' t feel it was as good as the climax version. I haven 't run that same comparison as I just now finished the MoD and did a quick listen. But I believe that the comparison would now leave no doubt as to the substantial musical upgrade that the Climax LP12 should and doesn't normally provide.

While in recommend the paper strip test to confirm this problem or the varnish of it, I also noticed that tapping the bottom of the Urika near the feet normally gives a bit of a drum sound, damped to be sure but still with a little resonance to it. Tapping by the foot under the motor before the MoD gave a completely dead sound. So you could try this first and see what you get.

By the way, the plinth was a stock Linn walnut with a height of 65mm, which seems to be the standard height for a Linn plinth. So, again, it is quite like this is a problem for a significant ratio of radical LP12s. I thank Fredrik for bringing this to light. It looks like I'm going to have to be investigating a lot of customer LP12s.

---------------------------------------------------------

This is an interesting reading, from a well known and respected USA Linn LP12 specialist, who earlier didn't thought that this was a big problem.

Or Karl's and Fredrik's findings,..... 60 % of the LP12's they have control here in Sweden have this problem.

But,....Just Listen for yourself... As Simply As That. Don't trust me or any other,...Trust your own ears.

Some have already written in this thread that this information has been helpful, others may be helped now. And,that was the meaning with this thread.
Many here have an LP12 in their Naim system, who knows.....you may not have heard how your Naim setup should sound with a fresh LP12 yet 😉.

And,....respect Richard Dane's wish. No cross-forum discussions or bad talk about Linn.This is just a thread of a Hifi issue.

Here you have the right perspective of the problem,...or issue.

/Peder 🙂

Here is links to the pictures about the issue and how to solve it. I do this from my phone,and I can't post in the whole picture from it,....just the links.

Can anybody post pictures from their phone,...I have a Windows Lumia 950 phone...maybe because of that. But it's their "flagship-phone" so it should go.....I think 😁.

◾ The thin paper strip 30x300 mm for control if you have the issue.
https://i.imgur.com/s9fgeza.jpg

◾ The Motor touch the Trampolin2 foot inside LP12.
https://i.imgur.com/ouDj3Tb.jpg

◾ The Trampolin Modification before you put it under the LP12 plint.
https://i.imgur.com/gtmr4ea.jpg

◾ The Trampolin2 1,5mm down after the modification.
https://i.imgur.com/WIYaPQx.jpg

◾ The Paper schema for information.
https://i.imgur.com/k4IOtbx.jpg

/Peder🙂 

 

Fair play to you Peder, you’re right to highlight this. Even if there’s only a handful of owners (hopefully not the 1 in 2 ratio suggested!) that need a correction done, it’s important. I respect the amount of time and effort you put into explaining the findings and your own workaround.

I explained with my message of 07/05/2018 to have lived this real anomaly, the base of the engine which affects the joint of suspension of Radikal.
The same problem with 2 different frames, a frame Afromasia 1978 and Oak of 2015. I inserted a thickness 1,5 mm, the joint wood are not easy because of the low thickness, I prefer joint cardboard, pvc, or alu

Yet another long post 😌........

Thomas O'Keefe (ThomasOK on forums), Linn-retailer USA, LP12 specialist,... see his previous writing in my last long post.

Thomas sent me an e-mail with this information, (I have permission to post it here)..... see below.

Interestingly, that Thomas has investigated 4 LP12 in a week, which all had this problem.
And,out of 7 LP12, that we have investigated the last 8 weeks, so had 5 this problem.

◾ As well as Karl's and Fredrik's, (see my last long Post) results, 60% of the LP12 verdict that traders investigated, had this problem.

Conclusion: No one can probably, anymore claim that this is a rare problem.!!

----------------------------------------------------------

◾ Fredrik Lejonklou,.... LP12 Specialist, meets probably right when he notes.......

🔸 I have a growing suspicion that those who label this problem as "rare", either don't understand it, or don't know how to check it.

---------------------------------------------------------

Great that ThomasOK writes, and reports so in detail to us...... respect.!! 🔽🔽🔽 

◾ Thomas O ' Keefe's (ThomasOK) post.....
🔹 Unfortunately I can no longer consider this a rare phenomena. The problem with the actual screw touching is infrequent and I have always dealt with this in the past by using a Dremel to grind down the screw. Linn responded to this by using shorter screws on the Urika that don't protrude above the ring, then also rotating the screw positions on the Urika so none of the screws were under the motor and later donig the same to the trampoline 2. This problem, however, comes from the bottom of the motor being pushed in contact with the rubber clad metal mounting ring of the foot when the Urika/T2 is screwed to the bottom of the plinth. This can easily happen without it being obvious that the two are pressed together. While I think it is going a bit far to say it is completely destroys the sound, I do find there is a kind of deadness and sluggishness to the music when these two are in contact and a significant improvement in tunefulness, impact, texture and drive when it is corrected.

My suspicion is that the radical is such a huge improvement that this smaller loss was not noted. But over time some have become less enamored of their LP12s and have noticed that others units have been more musical. As far as I am aware, there were a group of Linn customers in Sweden, who first figured out what was happening and my associates there and in Italy did some more testing and came to the same conclusions which they shared with me. Fredrik Lejonklou also came up with a workable solution of installing thin wooden strips between the Urika/T2 and the plinth to space the two apart a little over 1mm. I first tried this last week on the store's demo Climax LP12 which recently underperformed compared to our demo Majik LP12 in some direct comparisons. So I acquired some 1.5 mm by 5mm balsa strips, marked and drilled them, and installed them on the demo Climax LP12. This brought a definite improvement in musicality with an especially more textured and dynamic bass.

I have now done this modification to four different LP12s, the latest a brand new unit with radical, Keel, Akito3, Adikt and Trampolin 2 and definitely find it worth doing. From reports elsewhere I would suspect that this is more common than we would like to think. The store demo and the latest unit I worked on both have plinths that are 65mm tall and the other two I did were 64.5 mm. On all these the 1.5 mm thick strips cured the problem. A report I have seen from another person who tested for it found no contact on his unit with a plinth just under 69mm. My Personal plinth is actually an early Woodsong plinth from when Chris used to make them noticeably taller than Linn plinths and as it is 70mm tall there is no chance of contact there. My guess is that if your plinth is 66.5 mm or taller, and likely even 66mm tall, you are probably all right (although it might still be worth testing as sometimes the top plate seat a touch lower than others). However, the majority of the Linn plinths that I have measured in the last few weeks are 65mm and those are subject to the problem.

It seems to me that a revised trampoline 2/Urika base, where the area that the feet are fitter to have circles that are pressed downward by somewhere in the 1.5 to 2mm range, would increase that spacing and solve the problem. In the meantime I have laid in a stock of balsa strips and am contacting my LP12/radical customers to come back in for a checkup. I just feel bad that we didn't ' t discover this a while ago. But A number of people are going to be very happy when they hear what additional musicality their LP12 can provide. This has all been reported to Linn and our local rep is following up on it so I am hopeful they will be able to duplicate our findings and come up with a more elegant solution.

------------------------------------------------------

And,again.....respect Richard Dane's wish. No cross-forum discussions or bad talk about Linn.This is just a thread of a Hifi issue.

/Peder 🙂

Christopher_M posted:

Hello Peder,

Has anyone in your 'group' asked Linn if the motor can have a shallower can? And if so, what was the answer?

(Hopefully, me asking questions doesn't contravene forum rules, Richard will say).

C.

🔹 Hi Christopher_M,.... missed, or forgot to answer your question.... or,... pondered how I would answer to stick to the forum rules..... excuse me. Will try to answer here.

What I can say, without breaking the forum rules is..... No, we have not received any thoughts, suggestions for solutions.
According to Linn, the Official Explanation is, that this is within the specifications. That the Radical engine can take in the Trampolin2 foot.
We have also received this on email.

Without saying too much, I can say that there we differ in perception..... read, among other things, my 2 last long posts.

Our suggestions for solutions....
◾ Make a higher LP12 plint. Instead of 65mm, maybe the 69-70mm. This already makes 3rd party's manufacturer of LP12 plints, Chris Harban (Woodsong).

◾ Make a recess in the trampoline bottom-plate where the four feet should sit.... say 2-3mm so that the feet get farther away from the radical engine.
But the question is, how this affects the resonance frequency, as the bottom-plate will then become stiffer.

◾ Or as you suggest, if it goes.... reduce the height of the engine casing.

All of these actions will somehow affect the sound quality, for Linn says of course themselves regarding their LP12.... that all matters.

We also know that this is true, all who has longer experience of this iconic product.

In the meantime, it is probably the best compromise, to address the problem, as Fredrik Lejonklou proposes.
Fredrik's solution is described in previous posts, there are also links to pictures, so you can look for yourselves.

Thomas O ' Keefe (ThomasOK on forums),... Linn retailer and LP12-specialist USA since 1978, confirms that Fredrik's solution is the best until further notice.
Now has also ThomasOK been in contact with Linn HQ, and also Linn's representative in the United States, as he himself writes here in the thread,..... and hopes for a more elegant solution to the problem.

I put the links to the pictures of the problem, and Fredrik Lejonklou's suggestion how to fix it again.... 🔽🔽🔽🔽🔽🔽

◾ The Motor touch the Trampolin2 foot inside The LP12.
Https://i.imgur.com/ouDj3Tb.jpg

◾ The Thin paper strip 30x300 mm, for control if you have this problem.
Https://i.imgur.com/s9fgeza.jpg

◾ The trampoline Modification before you put it under The LP12 terminal.
Https://i.imgur.com/gtmr4ea.jpg

◾ The Trampolin2 1, 5mm down after The modification.
Https://i.imgur.com/WIYaPQx.jpg

◾ The Paper schema for information.
Https://i.imgur.com/k4IOtbx.jpg

Again,Christopher_M,....excuse a late reply, and hope I kept myself within the forum rules.

/Peder 🙂

🚫 I Have To Remind,..That You Really 🚫    
       Control Your LP12,If You Have.......

◾ Radikal,Urika,Trampolin2.....

Below is the latest information from Tomas O'Keefe (ThomasOK, on forums).
Linn-Trader USA, LP12-Specialist since 1978, he has written earlier in the thread.

The only safe way to check this on, is to use the described "paper test 30 * 300mm"... see the uploads image-links.
Slightest contact between Radikal motor and Trampolin-foot affects performance negatively, see Thomas O'Keefe's writing below.....

As I said before,I have permission of Thomas, to post his writes..how to solve the problem.

Ignore what Linn or any trader says,just trust your ears and control this.
-----------------------------------------------------

◾Thomas O'Keefe writes.....
I thought I should mention here, that Tony Tune-age posted a writeup about my applying this mod to his LP12, in the Me and my system section. Here is the link:

Here I removed the link, to respect the forum rules, but look at Lejonklou's forum,for text and pictures.

Thomas continues below....

I think it does a good job of covering what is done, and more importantly the musical benefits he heard.
 Interestingly His plinth is 65mm, but with a Khan top plate. This combination made for a very slight contact of the bottom of the motor, with the ring of the Urika foot such that the paper could be pulled out but with a small amount of resistance.

 I wasn't sure how much difference this would make, but Tony found the same kinds of improvements we have heard on other LP12s, that have been similarly fixed.

To me it narrows this down a bit, by showing that any contact at all is musically harmful, and also that 65mm appears to be just below the break point.
 My guess is that 66mm and above would be fine, and 65.5 mm might even be OK.

It is still important to test any LP12 that is suspect, as the depth of the rebate for the bottom, and the height of the blocks and strips can vary slightly.
 Indeed I set up a brand new LP12 with Linn Plinth recently, where the top plate was just a hair below being flush with the plinth.
So a plinth with a 66mm height still might have a problem.
The only way to know is to test it.

◾ Thomas also writes......
A Little Clarification.
As stated, this problem can be there with Linn or third party plinths. My Plinth is a relatively early Woodsong plinth when Chris made them a bit taller to show off the wood better. 

Mine is actually 70mm tall so no chance of it having the problem. I am actually the one who recommended Chris make them closer to standard Linn plinth height, as the 70mm ones look a little bit heavy compared to a stock plinth. (In hindsight maybe that wasn't ' t such a good call.)

 Most of the Linn plinths I have measured have been 65mm, with one of the two newest ones being 64.5 mm, so there is still some slight variance.
 There can also be slight variances in how deep the rebatee for the bottom is, and how close to the top of the plinth the top plate mounting strips and blocks are.
As Chris mentions, it is the distance between these two that is critical.

🔸 My experience is, that this is actually a fairly common problem.
 Since I was made aware of the possibility, the majority of the LP12s I have worked on failed the test using the paper strip. 

All those in modified, ad per Tony's post, have been reported to have similar improvements in musical quality, and I posted a couple of before and after clips on the Lejonklou forum,that demonstrate what you can expect to hear. 

The LP12 Tony brought in, had the least resistance to pulling the paper out of any LP12 where there was contact.
Yet He still heard the same kinds of improvements others have, as he enumerated above.
 Since His plinth is 65mm I expect that anything 66mm and above would be OK, and maybe even 65.5 mm would be.
But due to the differences in the plinths mentioned above, it is worth checking those as well just to be sure.

As Chris stated, machining down a part of the ring on the trampoline foot in that corner is another way to address the problem.
But I Find the wood strips to be a relatively simple fix, with no negative musical side effects.

You sometimes might need to replace a screw or two with longer ones to get the proper amount of grip into the plinth, but most plinths I have done needed 0 or 1 longer screw. 

Long term,plinths that are a little taller or a motor housing that is a little shorter would address the problem.
 Another relatively simple production change, would be to press round depressions into the trampoline/Urika plate for the feet to fit down into, thereby lowering the rings a couple etc.

 This would also allow a retrofit without having to change the plinth or motor, both of which would be more costy and more difficult to replace.
-------------------------------------------------------

I'll later add links here,to photos where ThomasOK fixes this problem.
Then you will see even more,how now to be done if you choose to fix this yourself.

/Peder 🙂

✋🏻 STOP,..IMPORTENT,LP12-Radikal Problem.❗❗

Do you remember this heading 😉,you who have followed the thread (it's soon 4000 views), understand enough now why I chose it.

We invest so much money,...and time in our music-systems,so if someone discovers something obvious wrong,....yes then I take it for granted that we inform each other.
Then it depends on how the company that committed the error handles it,which shows the quality of the company.
For everyone can do wrong,...both you and me.

💥Below comes Thomas O'Keefe's latest update on "LP12 Radikal Problem".

Thomas,as I said earlier is Linn-trader,and a recognized talented,well-known and respected LP12 specialist since 1978,he is from the United States.
I am incredibly grateful that we can share Thomas's experience and knowledge of the LP12 problem.
Thomas's screws in more LP12's than we as private individuals,and will then have a much larger assessment basis.He is also in contact with other dealers around the world.

See also Thomas previous writes,in my previous posts here in the thread.

◾ Thomas O'Keefe writes,......
With the exception of my own LP12 with its 70mm plinth.
Every Radical LP12 I have worked on since I first heard about this problem from Fredrik, has had a plinth height between 64mm and 65mm,whether made by Linn or Woodsong.
Every single one of those has needed the mod for best performance.
🔸So Obviously this is not a rare occurrence. 🔸

With Thomas O'Keefe's conclusion,I would like to recall....
◾ Frederick Lejonklou's also drawn conclusion again.....
🔸 I have a growing suspicion that those who label this problem as "rare",either don't understand it,or do not know how to check it.

I find the most reliable way is to check with a 30 × 300 mm strip of thin paper. If it gets stuck when the LP12 is standing on its feet, you have the problem. 🔸

For more information on how to check your LP12 with this "Paper test", see the thread, where you can also find links to pictures.

But here below,Thomas O'Keefe's last update on the LP12-problem....🔽🔽🔽

🔹 A further update.
I have worked on two more LP12s with radical and Urika or trampoline 2.
On a unit brought back by a customer for a cable change on his Urika and another that I installed the radical and trampoline 2 onto as well as a Kore.
Both needed the mod to keep the radical engine from pressing on the Trampolin foot. The Urika LP12 with a 65mm tall Woodsong Movingui Plinth was definitely pressing hard against the foot-I would have ripped the paper if I had pulled it any harder.
This is in contrast the Tony Tune-Age's LP12 which also had a Woodsong Movingui 65mm plinth But where there was only a little pressure and the paper could be pulled out.

So another indication of small variances of internal dimensions in plinths with the same height and the need to test.
Both These Movingui plinths were relatively early Woodsong production, before Chris realized that there could be a problem.
This Latest 65mm Plinth table sounded to me like there might not be a problem when tapping the Urika near each of the feet yet it was pressing hard.
🔸So you do need to do the paper test to be sure.

The other turntable I installed the Kore, radical and trampoline 2 into was a Linn afromosia plinth with a height of only 64mm.

A plinth with the larger corner braces but before the motor stud on the top plate came out.
This is the lowest one I have seen yet so it was pretty obvious it would need the mod. 
Once everything was ready to be fitted with the wood strips in place I put the paper strip in to make sure there was enough added height not to be a problem with the 64mm plinth height.

The paper was completely free so no contact of the motor and foot. Since the wood strips I use are about 1.5 mm thick (with some slight variance).
This further indicates to me that it is like the break point is about 65.5 mm in plinth height. So 66mm high plinths are likely to be OK, 65mm are not and 65.5 mm might be ok but I would certainly test it (I would also test 66mm units just to be sure until we have more information).

With the exception of my own LP12 with its 70mm plinth.
Every Radical LP12 I have worked on since I first heard about this problem from Frederick, has had a plinth height between 64mm and 65mm, whether made by Linn or Woodsong.

Every single one of those has needed the mod for best performance. So Obviously this is not a rare occurrence. 🔹 

Now with Thomas figures on the LP12-problem,and also previously reported......
Fredrik and Karl,LP12-specialists,traders from Sweden....60% of the players they checked have this problem.
As well as our own numbers,5 out of 7 that we checked had this problem.

Hope this clarifies the issue and also the magnitude of the issue as being reported here.

I sincerely hope that all the information in this thread,allows you to check your LP12 so that it is OK,or will be after the mod we have talked about here.
Image-Links are added later.....

/Peder 🙂

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Trampoline2 2006-Trampoline Urika 2009.
With baseboard of 65mm, vinyl after 140gr the base radikal touches the membrane suspension of trampoline2; with the weight Urika added in trampoline2, I suppose that the weight of the vinyl is sensitive. A tongue of 1 in 1.5mm is well

vintageaxeman posted:

I suppose this is one advantage of not having a Tramp or any baseboard at all. I don't....

🔹 Vintageaxeman,....When Mana acoustics were produced and sold,there were many who drove without baseboard on that shelf.... especially in England if I understood correctly.

Myself,...I have never tried without baseboard, trampoline.

/Peder 🙂

Peder posted:
vintageaxeman posted:

I suppose this is one advantage of not having a Tramp or any baseboard at all. I don't....

🔹 Vintageaxeman,....When Mana acoustics were produced and sold,there were many who drove without baseboard on that shelf.... especially in England if I understood correctly.

Myself,...I have never tried without baseboard, trampoline.

/Peder 🙂

And some are still doing it. My baseboardless LP12 sits on a phase 4 Mana wall shelf and I'm still happy with it, although I remain curious about the much vaunted Tiger Paw Vulkan. Not that there's much likelihood of my changing, given the near-impossibility of setting up a comparative dem. But if the house burned down, my replacement LP12 would likely be sitting on a Vulkan.

C

Once upon a time, Linn would have had to meet safety standards, to get the LP12 approved for sale in all the countries it was to be sold in.  And just like on the rear of my father's huge Phillips valve radio in the sixties, they originally faced the problem with a piece of hardboard. It was a case of 'needs must', rather than following sonic assessment. The same is true of the metal corner brackets which were insisted upon by the Canadian market 'just in case a glued corner joint failed.' Other than that, the tiny metal brackets serve no useful purpose. And of course if the fixing screws were ever loose, they would become a source of vibration and rattle.

It was only when the Tramp 1 was released, that there was the advantage of allowing one to level up the turntable with its adjustable feet.  But there WAS controversy at the time about whether 'base on', or 'base off' sounded better. I was, and have always been, in the latter camp.  For Linn, it was a base that felt a bit more like an 'engineering solution' than 'just a bit of hardboard'. And the feet were supposedly better than the tiny little RS Components 'off the shelf'  standard rubber ones that had been fitted to hundreds of designs from many other companies for decades. In short, the Tramp was a product designed for Linn to say 'It has been designed this way as part of the comprehensive LP12 system approach'. I for one never accept such philosophies at face value.

I have not used a baseboard on my various LP12s for decades. I know that there used to be mains voltages inside an LP12, but as I was the only person in my house who would access my LP12's inside, I was confident that no-one else was being put in harm's way. (For many years I was also running valve amps with similar threats to my immortality!)

My LP12 is now running a DC motor. No high voltages inside, then. But I do have full access to tweak the suspension, check the cable dressing, etc., and there is no risk of resonance from a fibre, plywood, acrylic, aluminium or unobtanium baseplate! (Nor a risk of the DC motor fouling the baseplate, if there isn't the latter!

I can experiment with the feet on my LP12 too. They are mounted under the wooden corner braces, so I have no limit to what I can try out in this regard. As a designer, I am able to think about, experiment with, and arrive at, alternative design solutions. And when it comes to my main hobby, being creative with materials can pay real dividends. Sometimes, if you're lucky, dividends of the sonic variety!

I am SURE that even the latest baseboards resonate. And despite the 'shorter cable benefits' of the latest Urika 3 and 4 designs, some of that resonances inside an LP12 WILL affect into the Urika preamp components. (If you have ever, as a child, stuck your head inside an empty cardboard box, or a waste paper bin, you can make your voice boom like Darth Vader's.)  An empty box six sided WILL resonate much more than a topless or bottomless one.

So I do fully understand that if using a modern Urika pre, it will be fixed to a pukka Linn baseboard, and I too would love a brand new, fully Klimaxed LP12, but funds only allow me to buy the best gear if it either pre-owned, or 'earlier generation', or both.  So I carefully decide what to put my money into, and a resonating baseboard of ANY material has never been on my hit list. 

 

Corry posted:
Peder posted:
vintageaxeman posted:

I suppose this is one advantage of not having a Tramp or any baseboard at all. I don't....

🔹 Vintageaxeman,....When Mana acoustics were produced and sold,there were many who drove without baseboard on that shelf.... especially in England if I understood correctly.

Myself,...I have never tried without baseboard, trampoline.

/Peder 🙂

And some are still doing it. My baseboardless LP12 sits on a phase 4 Mana wall shelf and I'm still happy with it, although I remain curious about the much vaunted Tiger Paw Vulkan. Not that there's much likelihood of my changing, given the near-impossibility of setting up a comparative dem. But if the house burned down, my replacement LP12 would likely be sitting on a Vulkan.

C

🔹 CORRY,...Tiger Paw Vulkan is a very good wall shelf,it is a copy of the almost legendary AudioTech wall shelf.

But,..if you have a AudioTech wall shelf,so you should keep it,and not switch to a Tiger Paw Vulkan.....AudioTech wall Shelf is better.

We have tested on the same wall,under just the same conditions.
However,if you do not have a AudioTech, and do not find a Mana-wallshelf second hand, so buy a Tiger Paw Vulkan.
Tiger Paw Vulkan's top-plate is available in two different thicknesses,if you have a LP12 so choose the thinner top-plate.... it plays better.

But,..as I said,..Mana Wall Shelf is the best of these three.
We have tested these three, on the same wall under just the same conditions.
But Mana wall shelf is hard to find, as it is not manufactured anymore.

All three require "Attention To Detail" during the installation,...but the Mana wall shelf is extra cumbersome.
Advice,..read the instruction manual carefully and don't skimp on installation.... everything affects and is heard.

/Peder 🙂

💥PICTURES of the MODIFICATION,ThomasOK.

As I have said before,ThomasOK is a trader, distributor and a recognized talented and respected LP12 specialist since 1978.
You have probably also understood this when you have read ThomasOK's earlier writes.He has also developed a special Rack for the LP12.

ThomasOK has earlier in one of his writes here mentioned Tony Tune-age.
◾ Now comes text and image links,which shows when ThomasOK performs this modification on Tony Tune-age LP12.
This is to get to grips with this "LP12-Radikal Problem",..which this thread is all about.

After looking at the pictures,you can probably perform this modification yourself,...or show this to your traders,so know them how they should....
◾ 1. Check this problem.
◾ 2. Perform the modification.

Then,there is no longer a trader,who can claim that this is a rare problem.

-----🔽🔽🔽 Tony Tone-age LP12 mod 🔽🔽🔽----

I have been reading various comments regarding the possibility of a Radikal motor being in physical contact with one of the Trampolin feet on LP12's with 64mm high plinths, and how this situation could have a negative impact on sonic performance. So needless to say, I decided to have my deck checked out by ThomasOk.

Although my plinth is 65mm tall, there was still a possibility of the motor being in direct contact with the back left Trampolin foot (when facing the deck)...🔽🔽🔽🔽 
Picture1❗  https://i.imgur.com/f2Wg2Dh.jpg

-------------------------🔼🔼🔼🔼----------------------

So, in order to know if the two parts were touching, ThomasOk placed a narrow strip of paper between the motor and foot, then fed it through the Trampolin opening as shown below.--------------🔽🔽🔽🔽 
Picture 2❗  https://i.imgur.com/7Ll5mks.jpg

-----------------------🔼🔼🔼🔼------------------------

Thomas attached the Trampolin back onto the plinth,and put the LP12 on the table,standing on the Trampolin2 feets.And then gently pulled the strip of paper through the opening. There was some initial resistance, which confirmed contact between the two parts. So, he put strips of balsa wood along the inside perimeter of the Trampolin as shown below..........🔽🔽🔽🔽 
Picture 3 ❗  https://i.imgur.com/HLlK0bd.jpg

Picture 4 ❗   https://i.imgur.com/QRK8T8T.jpg

Picture 5 ❗  https://i.imgur.com/Ujb384W.jpg

--------------------------🔼🔼🔼🔼-------------------------

When he was finished with the wood strips, ThomasOk attached the Trampolin back onto the plinth..............🔽🔽🔽🔽 
Picture 6 ❗  https://i.imgur.com/66jJadJ.jpg

Picture 7 ❗  https://i.imgur.com/ZCajE8Z.jpg

-------------------------🔼🔼🔼🔼------------------------

After completely assembling the deck, ThomasOk played an album to make sure everything was operating correctly. My first impression was an improvement on vocals, but really couldn't be sure. Primarily because my deck was hooked-up to his bench system, which isn't that elaborate.

However, once the deck was in my home system, it became much easier to hear any differences that might exist. And while the differences I heard weren't subtle, they weren't overwhelmingly obvious either. But that said, the differences I heard were for the better, and very important! The vocals were in fact better (i.e., more realistic and natural sounding), and the timing was vastly improved as well. It wasn't until I was listening to the new Jimi Hendrix album "Both Sides of the Sky," that I noticed how deep and defined the bass notes were.

While my deck certainly sounded good before this necessary modification, I know exactly how much the Radikal motor touching the Trampolin foot degraded the sound. And needless to say, it surprises me that nobody noticed this particular design flaw until recently. Moving forward, perhaps the Linn plinths will be made taller (i.e., 66.5mm). In addition, it will be interesting to see if Linn takes this issue seriously and finds a fair solution for customers that have this problem.

◾ So, what is the bottom line? My deck sounds better than it has ever sounded, and it's unfortunate that some Sondek owners might not be experiencing the true potential of their deck. It is a krazy world indeed!
-------------------------------------------------------
🔸 ThomasOK’s conclusions…..

This was an interesting LP12 for me as it is helping to narrow things down. It has a 65mm plinth, maybe even just a hair above it, which is probably the most common size. I did the paper strip test and found that there was some resistance to the pull but less than any other LP12 I had done that had any resistance. The Khan top plate might have had an effect on this as it might make the motor sit just the slightest bit higher, but I'm not sure. On this table I was able to pull the paper out but there was just a bit of grab, most others you couldn't pull out the paper without risk of ripping it. There was just the slightest bit of contact but there was still contact. I let Tony know that there might be little or no difference but since he lives a few hours away he didn't want to take the chance and asked that I do it. I did the mod as shown in the photos above and checked suspension, tracking and anti-skating. Everything was fine as I had already done the counterweight adjustment on this table and all sounded good. No changes except the mod. As you can see from the report above even relieving this small amount of contact had the same kind of improvements we have heard in the other LP12s that have been fixed.

🔸 All said it does appear that any contact at all is a bad thing and should be rectified.
-------------------------------------------------------
Now you have a little homework on your LP12, if you have Radikal, Trampolin2 or/and Urika.

/Peder🙂

Hello again 🙋🏻 

Now have this IMPORTANT INFORMATION,about this BIG LP12-Radikal-Problem been out here for a while.

The two big,best at LP12-Setup here in Sweden....Karl and Fredrik,as I presented earlier in this thread.
◾Now 70% of the LP12 that they have controlled here in Sweden have had this problem,..that the engine takes in the Trampolin2 foot.

◾Tomas O'Keefe,..(ThomasOK on forums)..that reported a lot in this thread.
There,all of his controlled LP12 had this problem.

My question now is,..You who have already managed to control your LP12,if you have Radikal, Urika, Trampolin2....how did you experience the improved music reproduction.?

Some have already had time to report it in the thread here,but would be fun to hear some more impressions.!

Peder🙂

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