Three improvements

CharlieP posted:

Stuart,

Your rack looks well crafted and likely performs pretty well.  Compared to Fraim, it lacks holes in the shelves (which raise mode frequencies a bit, aid ventilation and reduce acoustic excitation); significantly it lacks the glass shelves.  Consider getting a sheet of toughened glass and place on a shelf with three capnuts.  There are threads that discuss this at length, and some (including me) report favorable results.  Try it under CD player, then preamp.  If that works well, more glass can be added as budget allows.  If you tfy this, please report how your music is affected.

Charlie

 

Thanks Charlie

I did try tapping the shelves and they do seem to have some lower frequency resonance (I think). cutting some holes in the shelves will be worth a try.

I have seen previous threads on adding glass shelves and it doesn't seem too difficult. Part of me thinks do I just bite the bullet and buy a proper rack. 

Budget would allow supernait 2 and maybe 3 levels of full fat fraim. would this be overkill for such a modest system - maybe something a little cheaper would be more appropriate? 

Huge posted:

As table cloths have very little absorption and yet still make a noticeable difference, that does suggest that the the room reflections are a very significant part of your problems at HF.

My suggestion is that at the first reflection points, you use some wall hangings behind which you put some acoustic wadding (25mm - 50mm deep).  This will also 'tighten up' your stereo image slightly.  Yo may also find it very beneficial to put a diffuser on the rear wall behind your listening position.  To test whether this is worthwhile, use some more of the acoustic wadding (or a duvet!) and see what happens.  If the quality of the HF improves but sounds overdamped then you need a diffeser; if it improves but doesn't sound overdamped then you need an absorber (as for the side walls).

Thanks Huge 

The room is a little asymmetrical and as such my listening position isn't ideal. I will definitely check out first reflection points.  one will be along a window so a heavy curtain might help with this. There is a canvas on opposite side wall which i could place a panel behind. I may have some negotiations to consider for additional panels - I think I cam pull it off though!!! 

Given your current electronics, if you sort out your room acoustics, I think you'd get a much better return on investment by keeping your existing rack and investing in upgrading the electronics rather than blowing the budget on a full fat Fraim.

If you can't sort out your room acoustics, than the best upgrade may be speakers.


Incidentally, whilst holes / slots can work well in shelves on racks, the size and placement of them usually requires finite element analysis (or a lot of experimentation, or both) to ensure that the vibrational modes don't interact to give acoustically unfavourable patterns.  I'd look at nuts and glass or viscoelastic absorbers before cutting holes in the rack.

stuart posted:
CharlieP posted:

Stuart,

Your rack looks well crafted and likely performs pretty well.  Compared to Fraim, it lacks holes in the shelves (which raise mode frequencies a bit, aid ventilation and reduce acoustic excitation); significantly it lacks the glass shelves.  Consider getting a sheet of toughened glass and place on a shelf with three capnuts.  There are threads that discuss this at length, and some (including me) report favorable results.  Try it under CD player, then preamp.  If that works well, more glass can be added as budget allows.  If you tfy this, please report how your music is affected.

Charlie

 

Thanks Charlie

I did try tapping the shelves and they do seem to have some lower frequency resonance (I think). cutting some holes in the shelves will be worth a try.

I have seen previous threads on adding glass shelves and it doesn't seem too difficult. Part of me thinks do I just bite the bullet and buy a proper rack. 

Budget would allow supernait 2 and maybe 3 levels of full fat fraim. would this be overkill for such a modest system - maybe something a little cheaper would be more appropriate? 

I went for Quadraspire SVT in bamboo, which is £280 per level and works really well and is easy to keep clean. A good carpet with thick underlay and upholstered furniture is the nearest I've ever got to room acoustic treatment - it's easy to over complicate things sometimes. 

Thanks for all the input 

Plenty to think about.  First thing is to trial supernait 2 as I presume this should be a good step up in amplification from the xs separates. If this ticks the boxes this would allow funds for three levels of good rack - quadraspire, fraimlite or isoblue. This should leave me with a good base to build from.

Some heavy curtains should help first reflection points at one side of the room. I think the opposite side wall is OK with a large sofa. Rear wall could be problematic with a glazed door. I may consider some panels which I can store under the sofa and place against the door and rear wall during serious listening. I will look at gaining some knowledge in this area but the lounge will still need to look like a lounge and not a studio.

If this brings good results I will take a little time and try power supplies for amp and dac v's speakers. 

A new laptop is desperately required and I will also add a Nas drive and start ripping Cds for the Muso in the kitchen. This will be a steep learning curve as my computer skills are truly pathetic ie I have never ripped a cd before!!! Fortunately my better half can help here and I'm sure it can't be that hard. I just tend to find that I find other things to do - listening to music, playing guitar etc rather than sitting down with a pc / laptop. If this goes well an Ndx further down the line would be a logical step. 

I seem to be moving towards the ndac / supernait purely because I feel the ndac has added a huge improvement to my system and upgrades over time are maybe more attainable eg used hicap and psu for ndac / speaker upgrade. 

. I have considered the 272 / 250dr. The 250 in particular receives great praise but this route would involve ditching the dac and maybe goes against source first principals. Financially I can't stretch to 282 / 250 / hicap to add to the ndac based system so I think it maybe the supernait 2 / rack / speakers 

I may be in danger of bias before I proceed with further demos so I need to keep an open mind. 

Stuart 

 

Stuart,

It will not cost too much to try one shelf of glass with domenuts, likely under CD or preamp.  If the sound changes (and I am betting it will), you will hopefully learn how much rack changes can affect the music replay.  If no change, or it gets worse, you may lose interest in racks.  If the music improves, you can get more serious about a new rack - or just get a few more sheets of glass.   Consider the investment in rack should be a noticeable percentage of your total system investment.  Think of the cost allocation in a stack of Naim classic boxes sitting on full Fraim.

Charlie

I have added some temporary and improvised damping at room reflection points which seems to have tamed the treble quite effectively. A Christmas �� tree at one reflection point seems to have helped (I believe there was mention of this in a current thread re cdx2)

Tried contacting a local glazing company to order a glass shelf or two but they are now closed for Christmas.  A job for the new year. 

I now have a supernait 2 on loan for a week or two. First impressions are much better bass definition and control. There is a more 3 dimensional sound stage and improved organisation of musical flow.  More complex music definitely has more separation and detail. Overall more clarity between sounds and instruments. These are definitely the improvements I was hoping for. 

The high frequencies - I can now hear that the xs amplification seems to be slightly rolled off in the treble, despite being a little problematic at times. 

I can hear much greater upper frequency detail with the supernait. I think I am hearing more refinement in this area but this can become a little strident with some music. I believe this may be down to the speakers treble units possibly not transmitting this information with the required subtlety ??? 

I now have improvement in most areas but still want to have more treble refinement. My system has now resided in 3 different houses and the high frequencies have been a itch I need to scratch. As I said earlier I really enjoy the Neat sound but maybe I need to consider speakers higher up in their range (at least trying the sx2 with improved treble units) 

I wonder if 24 hours of being powered up will make any difference - will have another listen tonight. 

I had a demo of some speakers yesterday, and was very pleasantly surprised by the newish Quad S4 and S5 speakers. by comparison with most other speakers I've heard around their sizes and up to twice the price, I found them very very natural sounding, nicely dynamic and balanced and with wonderful refined high frequencies from the ribbon tweeter. They left me with a huge grin on my face and not wanting to stop the audition which had shifted from analytical listening to just giving me a really nice emotional connection with the music. Audition recommended.

 

DC71 posted:

I had a demo of some speakers yesterday, and was very pleasantly surprised by the newish Quad S4 and S5 speakers. by comparison with most other speakers I've heard around their sizes and up to twice the price, I found them very very natural sounding, nicely dynamic and balanced and with wonderful refined high frequencies from the ribbon tweeter. They left me with a huge grin on my face and not wanting to stop the audition which had shifted from analytical listening to just giving me a really nice emotional connection with the music. Audition recommended.

 

Thanks DC71 

My dealer stocks quad so I will have a listen.  The z series also look interesting. 

Will report back my findings.

Finally received 2 x 10mm toughened glass shelves and place them on M8 cap nuts, one under cd5xs and one under pre amp. After varying position of the cap nuts I decided that dynamics had deteriorated. Removed the shelf from under the pre amp and noted a definite improvement. Overall improvement with shelf under cdp but surprised sound degraded with shelf under pre amp. 

I will therefore try shelf under ndac and reassess. I don't think any improvements will be made under flatcap but may be worth a try under power amp. 

I have considered trying alternative shelf supports such as vibrapods etc. Anyone had success with such products. 

Next month I will do a home demo of 202/200 and 282/200. 

 

 

If you want to try something affordable, try 4 vibrapods with cones under an Ikea bamboo cutting board. I am getting very giid results with it, not sure it's the best but it works for me. A fraim is obviously the recommended solution but for more $$$

Moussa posted:

If you want to try something affordable, try 4 vibrapods with cones under an Ikea bamboo cutting board. I am getting very giid results with it, not sure it's the best but it works for me. A fraim is obviously the recommended solution but for more $$$

Thanks Moussa 

What components do you have on bamboo shelves? Do you use three or four vibrapods?  

Moussa posted:

If you want to try something affordable, try 4 vibrapods with cones under an Ikea bamboo cutting board. I am getting very giid results with it, not sure it's the best but it works for me. A fraim is obviously the recommended solution but for more $$$

Now try only 3 VibraPods and a toughned glass 10mm shelf instead of the bamboo

stuart posted:
Moussa posted:

If you want to try something affordable, try 4 vibrapods with cones under an Ikea bamboo cutting board. I am getting very giid results with it, not sure it's the best but it works for me. A fraim is obviously the recommended solution but for more $$$

Thanks Moussa 

What components do you have on bamboo shelves? Do you use three or four vibrapods?  

Sorry Moussa 

Didn't read your post properly. You suggested 4 vibrapods.  Adam recommends 3. Definitely worth trying different options to see how it reacts with my rack.  I was surprised at the difference a glass shelf made. 

Update

I now have 4 glass shelves insitu for pre power cdp and dac. Definitely all round improvements but most notably under cdp and dac.  

I have a 202/200dr naps on home demo.  Started by just adding the 200 to the 152 pre. This has made a significant improvement to bass, treble and separation. On its own this is what I've been after. 

Now to try the pre and naps. 

Thought I would post an update which hopefully some will find interesting. Firstly I added 202, napsc and 200dr. Obvious improvements in all areas. The main difference I found was much greater body to the sound. I really enjoyed the bass texture and extension and much better separation of instruments etc. 

Upper frequencies also improved but still a bit harsh for my liking. I therefore Loaned a pair on neat motive sx1's. These were brand new and have now had about 100 hours so half way through run in. These matched much better. Upper frequencies much more refined and great mid range and bass. A combination I could happily live with. 

One thing to note is that I have read many posts regarding the 202/200 and many say it is overly bright and 'glassy' was one description. I can't quite fathom these descriptions. I found the upper frequencies rather polite and less forward than my xs separates. Much more body and less forward presentation. I found some lower quality recordings more listenable. 

I also found the presentation a bit more laid back and less dynamic which makes listening less fatiguing but a little less exciting. Also slightly reduced fine detail. I now have a supernait 2 on loan as a comparison with the sx1's. The sound is now more dynamic with faster less extended bass. Maybe less texture in the bass. More detail and atmosphere and more forward treble which is about borderline for my ears. 

I could live with both set ups with these speakers and with more run in time they should improve further. The dilemma now is which to choose. The SN2 seems a similar presentation to my xs separates but a step up in quality. The 202/200dr certainly has a different character and both have strengths in different areas. 

I used to be indecisive but...... 

PS anyone tried SN2 with a 200? I know a few have added a 250dr 

stuart posted:
stuart posted:
Moussa posted:

If you want to try something affordable, try 4 vibrapods with cones under an Ikea bamboo cutting board. I am getting very giid results with it, not sure it's the best but it works for me. A fraim is obviously the recommended solution but for more $$$

Thanks Moussa 

What components do you have on bamboo shelves? Do you use three or four vibrapods?  

Sorry Moussa 

Didn't read your post properly. You suggested 4 vibrapods.  Adam recommends 3. Definitely worth trying different options to see how it reacts with my rack.  I was surprised at the difference a glass shelf made. 

Interesting suggestion by Adam, when I have sometime, I will try 3 vibrapods with toughened glass. I have SN2 and Hicap DR on the bamboo with vibrapods and cones

Moussa posted:
stuart posted:
stuart posted:
Moussa posted:

If you want to try something affordable, try 4 vibrapods with cones under an Ikea bamboo cutting board. I am getting very giid results with it, not sure it's the best but it works for me. A fraim is obviously the recommended solution but for more $$$

Thanks Moussa 

What components do you have on bamboo shelves? Do you use three or four vibrapods?  

Sorry Moussa 

Didn't read your post properly. You suggested 4 vibrapods.  Adam recommends 3. Definitely worth trying different options to see how it reacts with my rack.  I was surprised at the difference a glass shelf made. 

Interesting suggestion by Adam, when I have sometime, I will try 3 vibrapods with toughened glass. I have SN2 and Hicap DR on the bamboo with vibrapods and cones

Please note that the front-right hand side is heavier (transformer is there). So you may need a VibraPod with a 1 hardens up from the rest. 

I recommend: no 3 for the front left and rear middle and no 4 for the front right.

Adam

Adam Zielinski posted:
Moussa posted:
stuart posted:
stuart posted:
Moussa posted:

If you want to try something affordable, try 4 vibrapods with cones under an Ikea bamboo cutting board. I am getting very giid results with it, not sure it's the best but it works for me. A fraim is obviously the recommended solution but for more $$$

Thanks Moussa 

What components do you have on bamboo shelves? Do you use three or four vibrapods?  

Sorry Moussa 

Didn't read your post properly. You suggested 4 vibrapods.  Adam recommends 3. Definitely worth trying different options to see how it reacts with my rack.  I was surprised at the difference a glass shelf made. 

Interesting suggestion by Adam, when I have sometime, I will try 3 vibrapods with toughened glass. I have SN2 and Hicap DR on the bamboo with vibrapods and cones

Please note that the front-right hand side is heavier (transformer is there). So you may need a VibraPod with a 1 hardens up from the rest. 

I recommend: no 3 for the front left and rear middle and no 4 for the front right.

Adam

Great advice, Thanks Adam!

stuart posted:

Thought I would post an update which hopefully some will find interesting. Firstly I added 202, napsc and 200dr. Obvious improvements in all areas. The main difference I found was much greater body to the sound. I really enjoyed the bass texture and extension and much better separation of instruments etc. 

Upper frequencies also improved but still a bit harsh for my liking. I therefore Loaned a pair on neat motive sx1's. These were brand new and have now had about 100 hours so half way through run in. These matched much better. Upper frequencies much more refined and great mid range and bass. A combination I could happily live with. 

One thing to note is that I have read many posts regarding the 202/200 and many say it is overly bright and 'glassy' was one description. I can't quite fathom these descriptions. I found the upper frequencies rather polite and less forward than my xs separates. Much more body and less forward presentation. I found some lower quality recordings more listenable. 

I also found the presentation a bit more laid back and less dynamic which makes listening less fatiguing but a little less exciting. Also slightly reduced fine detail. I now have a supernait 2 on loan as a comparison with the sx1's. The sound is now more dynamic with faster less extended bass. Maybe less texture in the bass. More detail and atmosphere and more forward treble which is about borderline for my ears. 

I could live with both set ups with these speakers and with more run in time they should improve further. The dilemma now is which to choose. The SN2 seems a similar presentation to my xs separates but a step up in quality. The 202/200dr certainly has a different character and both have strengths in different areas. 

I used to be indecisive but...... 

PS anyone tried SN2 with a 200? I know a few have added a 250dr 

It's good to have an honest evaluation, to know that you could live with either the Supernait 2 or the NAC 202 / NAP 200 DR. It is useful to note that most people hear differently, hence it is not a surprise that some might find the 202/200 to be bright or glassy (one even thought that the 202/200 are the worst sounding amps Naim have ever made). There might be some level of exaggeration too as in reality the differences between amplifiers can be quite small, certainly not a case of one amp rendering another amp to sound broken, no matter how poor that amp can be.

I know this would add to the cost but I would suggest trying the Hicap DR with the NAC 202 (or the Supernait 2) before throwing in the towel on the 202/200.

You found the 202/200 to have more body and less forward than the 152/155 XS. You also found the high frequencies of the 202/200 to be more polite and less forward than the XS separates. Your experience coincides with mine as well. Basically you would get more body and refinement when going up the line, losing some forwardness or exuberance of the lower range amplifiers. The higher range amps just sound smoother without the ragged edges of the lower range amps. Some folks prefer fun sounding amps that sound exuberant, the Nait 1 or 2 for instance over body, refinement, texture in the bass etc. of the higher range amplifiers. 

You would pretty much experience the same when you move up the line, say from the 202/200 to the 282/250. I wouldn't describe on the differences between those amps here since it's off-topic.

Thanks Ryder 

I have tried to do some serious critical listening before I posted my thoughts. Last night I set up the xs separates as with all the swopping and changing I haven't listened to them with the new speakers. I have to say from cold and at low volume it was sounding rather good. A very underrated set in my opinion. 

Huge,  I have heard the 272/300dr driving pmc 25/23 and agree with you. It is a rather more expensive system however. I would happily go there..... alas funds will not allow for this. 

Moussa posted:
Adam Zielinski posted:
Moussa posted:
stuart posted:
stuart posted:
Moussa posted:

If you want to try something affordable, try 4 vibrapods with cones under an Ikea bamboo cutting board. I am getting very giid results with it, not sure it's the best but it works for me. A fraim is obviously the recommended solution but for more $$$

Thanks Moussa 

What components do you have on bamboo shelves? Do you use three or four vibrapods?  

Sorry Moussa 

Didn't read your post properly. You suggested 4 vibrapods.  Adam recommends 3. Definitely worth trying different options to see how it reacts with my rack.  I was surprised at the difference a glass shelf made. 

Interesting suggestion by Adam, when I have sometime, I will try 3 vibrapods with toughened glass. I have SN2 and Hicap DR on the bamboo with vibrapods and cones

Please note that the front-right hand side is heavier (transformer is there). So you may need a VibraPod with a 1 hardens up from the rest. 

I recommend: no 3 for the front left and rear middle and no 4 for the front right.

Adam

Great advice, Thanks Adam!

Just checked this out. Are vibrapods or vibracones better used with Naim?

I think you should consider the fact that not all music is recorded/engineered/produced in a way that hearing the instruments separately is always possible (Steely Dan vs Sonic Youth). A well recorded and executed piece can be reproduced likewise on a good system, like the one you have. However there's tons of albums out there that do not exhibit these qualities but are great albums nonetheless. The thing you should aim for is musical excitement and involvement.  Trying to adjust your system to deliver certain analytic results in every recording is a pipe dream imo. I think you have great system that is able of very high quality playback. Considering upgrades I would stick to the "source first" rule (did you listen to that CDx2 wih an XPS or without an XPS?). Maybe try listening to Roger Waters, Steely Dan and Talk Talk for a couple of days until you can;t stand it anymore and just want to rock out with the Sex Pistols or something...

Good luck!

Building on TEF's post it's also worth considering that you can't necessarily hear the separate instruments when you hear it played live. Having music that stirs your soul is infinitely more important to me than being able to hear every instrument separately and knowing that the bass player is standing four feet to the left of the drummer, and five feet in front. There are systems that can do that of course, but they tend to be bought by people who prefer Hifi demonstration discs, seem to own about three albums and would probably run a mile from a concert when they heard what real music sounds like. 

You are both absolutely right. I think the only time I experienced this type of separation live was at The Sage in Gateshead watching Van Morrison. It is a fantastic venue and worth a visit. 

As I stated in previous replies I am not looking for an ultimately resolving system but just improvements to these areas. The variety of recording quality and styles only makes things more interesting and makes me listen to music differently. 

After much demoing and evaluation I think I have worked out what has been going on. Since moving house and with a new room I am now listening more near field - approx 2.5m from speakers. Previously I would listen at 4.5m and obviously room acoustics were different, larger room etc. To get a good bass response from the motive 2's I could turn the volume up to a reasonable level. This did cause some hardening of the treble but seemed manageable in that room. I have been struggling with this in the new room. 

Introducing the Motive 1sx has improved bass considerably and the treble is much more refined. I seem to be able to listen at a range of volumes and variety of recordings much more comfortably. Incremental improvements gained in required three areas. 

I have had the chance to evaluate these speakers with three amplifier configurations. 202/200, Supernait 2 and my current xs separates. My findings in this room are as follows 

1. 202/200DR NAPSC - extended bass with texture. Slightly laid back presentation ie not too forward or exuberant with refined treble. 

2. Supernait 2 much more forward presentation more dynamic and maybe bass less detailed. This seemed to a bit too much for near field listening but in a bigger room with more demanding speakers I can appreciate it's strengths. 

3. Xs separates - basically seems to sit between the two. For the money it really is a great combination. Doesn't get many plaudits on this forum. Maybe bass not as good as 200 but I can't find much difference compared to SN2 in the bass. 

I now have to make some decisions. I think I will keep the speakers as this has solved the most pressing problems of treble and bass. Separation also is marginally improved. 

In terms of amplification I could happily stick with what I have and purchase a purpose rack and maybe looked at room treatments? Alternatives could be a psu for the dac. I have also considered adding a 200 as this did improve things with the 152. I know 202 should come first but I am not in any rush and would be happy to wait and save for the next wave of preamps even if this is still some time away. If not 202 always an option. 

I do feel a pang of disloyalty as my dealer has been great in terms of demos etc but doesn't stock Neats. I am sure in the not too distant future there will be further upgrades in electronics which will compensate. 

It's not easy this upgrade malarkey - but then it wouldn't be a very interesting hobby if it was. 

 

stuart posted:

I do feel a pang of disloyalty as my dealer has been great in terms of demos etc but doesn't stock Neats. I am sure in the not too distant future there will be further upgrades in electronics which will compensate.  

Remember, of course, that Neat are just up the road from you, and a more obliging chap than His Bobness, I have yet to meet.

They have a wonderful demonstration room there, and would be only too happy to show you what's available.

The only thing I'd say about the speakers is: beware. I bought some of the original Motive 1 and they developed so much bass as they ran in that they had to go. Nothing I could do would tame it - total nightmare. I've never got reflex ported speakers to work in my room, so it may be the room rather than the speaker. The transmission line PMC twenty.23 worked beautifully though. And of course, the new Motive 1sx might be less of a bass monster. 

This is probably not helpful, but if you are thinking of changing electronics, it's probably best to do that first. A big amp and small speakers will very likely be better than the opposite. The Motive 2 has always been a more balanced speaker than the 1.  The other advice I'd give you is to consider used or exdem speakers. They are far cheaper and you can sell them on with little or no loss if they don't work out. A new £2,000 speaker today will be worth £1,200 tomorrow. 

dave marshall posted:
stuart posted:

I do feel a pang of disloyalty as my dealer has been great in terms of demos etc but doesn't stock Neats. I am sure in the not too distant future there will be further upgrades in electronics which will compensate.  

Remember, of course, that Neat are just up the road from you, and a more obliging chap than His Bobness, I have yet to meet.

They have a wonderful demonstration room there, and would be only too happy to show you what's available.

This is exactly what I did Dave and he was very helpful 

Hungryhalibut posted:

The only thing I'd say about the speakers is: beware. I bought some of the original Motive 1 and they developed so much bass as they ran in that they had to go. Nothing I could do would tame it - total nightmare. I've never got reflex ported speakers to work in my room, so it may be the room rather than the speaker. The transmission line PMC twenty.23 worked beautifully though. And of course, the new Motive 1sx might be less of a bass monster. 

This is probably not helpful, but if you are thinking of changing electronics, it's probably best to do that first. A big amp and small speakers will very likely be better than the opposite. The Motive 2 has always been a more balanced speaker than the 1.  The other advice I'd give you is to consider used or exdem speakers. They are far cheaper and you can sell them on with little or no loss if they don't work out. A new £2,000 speaker today will be worth £1,200 tomorrow. 

Oh no did you not see my previous post about being decisive?!!! I have read your previous posts about the Sx1's but so far the bass seems very well controlled and only overblown if the mastering isn't up to scratch. I would say 80-90% so far is perfectly balanced. They have obviously been redesigned to counter this problem with better bracing, new cross over components and altered port tuning from what I have read. I had planned to do a home demo of pmc 25/23 but this maybe too much speaker for my current amplification. Having said that cost wise with flatcap it's about equal. My head hurts. :-) 

wrc posted:

I have XS separates with Neat Motive SX1s and I think it's a cracking combination.  It's stopped me thinking about the next upgrade for quite some time which has to be a good thing.

Glad to hear it WRC. How do you find the bass with the Sx1's?  For most things mine seem well controlled and balanced. My room is 16'x12' narrowing to 10' 

I am reading good things about Tellurium q speaker cables. I think I will give these a try as by all accounts they improve separation and sound stage. 

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