TIDAL Again....

Very interesting to hear Ardbeg10Y's comments on Chromecast. Does this really offer an entry level solution to streaming with high quality replay? Is the Gramofon another option? I principally use CD, but have a growing collection of 16 and 24 bit downloads on my PC, from which I use a USB stick to feed the nDac. Very happy with sound quality, but a little inconvenient. So looking for a solution to dip my toe into the streaming market! Also, hoping it would enable me to stream local content from the downloaded files stored on my PC. I realise a miniMac is another option...and no doubt there are others, but obviously these solutions cost considerably more. Any thoughts? Thanks. 

banzai posted:

Nope, music streaming is point-to-point i.e. a single server to a single receiver.

Sure, but this does not invalidate my point: a UPnP server can easily serve data to different streamers on the LAN. One can also connect multiple DACs to a player, of course. But, if you are interested in multi-room replay, this is a less practicable solution.

HardBop posted:

Very interesting to hear Ardbeg10Y's comments on Chromecast. Does this really offer an entry level solution to streaming with high quality replay? Is the Gramofon another option? I principally use CD, but have a growing collection of 16 and 24 bit downloads on my PC, from which I use a USB stick to feed the nDac. Very happy with sound quality, but a little inconvenient. So looking for a solution to dip my toe into the streaming market! Also, hoping it would enable me to stream local content from the downloaded files stored on my PC. I realise a miniMac is another option...and no doubt there are others, but obviously these solutions cost considerably more. Any thoughts? Thanks. 

I run MinimServer and upmpdcli (An UPnP Audio Media Renderer based on MPD) on a small fanless microserver connected (via USB to S/PDIF bridge) to a Naim DAC. My music library is on a 2TB HDD connected to the microserver via USB. Backup is on a couple of HDD in different locations via WLAN and rsync scripts. upmpdcli supports streaming Tidal contents but I have never tried it. If you like setting up your own server and renderer, I think that upmpdcli is a great tool for a single-room replay system with support for Tidal and internet radio. You can control it with Linn's Kazoo or any OpenHome control point of your choice. Linn Kazoo is very good works flawlessy with MinimServer. MinimServer allows you to browse your music collection according to your own indexing system. I can for instance select a composer, see all the works or compositions of that composers, pick up a specific work and see all interpretations of that work, etc. You can buy a decent microserver for around 200 EUR, check for instance the Fitlet devices at Tiny Green PC. You will have to spend about the same amount of money for a good USB to S/PDIF bridge and have to buy a BNC-BNC cable. Best, nbpf

nbpf posted:
HardBop posted:

Very interesting to hear Ardbeg10Y's comments on Chromecast. Does this really offer an entry level solution to streaming with high quality replay? Is the Gramofon another option? I principally use CD, but have a growing collection of 16 and 24 bit downloads on my PC, from which I use a USB stick to feed the nDac. Very happy with sound quality, but a little inconvenient. So looking for a solution to dip my toe into the streaming market! Also, hoping it would enable me to stream local content from the downloaded files stored on my PC. I realise a miniMac is another option...and no doubt there are others, but obviously these solutions cost considerably more. Any thoughts? Thanks. 

I run MinimServer and upmpdcli (An UPnP Audio Media Renderer based on MPD) on a small fanless microserver connected (via USB to S/PDIF bridge) to a Naim DAC. My music library is on a 2TB HDD connected to the microserver via USB. Backup is on a couple of HDD in different locations via WLAN and rsync scripts. upmpdcli supports streaming Tidal contents but I have never tried it. If you like setting up your own server and renderer, I think that upmpdcli is a great tool for a single-room replay system with support for Tidal and internet radio. You can control it with Linn's Kazoo or any OpenHome control point of your choice. Linn Kazoo is very good works flawlessy with MinimServer. MinimServer allows you to browse your music collection according to your own indexing system. I can for instance select a composer, see all the works or compositions of that composers, pick up a specific work and see all interpretations of that work, etc. You can buy a decent microserver for around 200 EUR, check for instance the Fitlet devices at Tiny Green PC. You will have to spend about the same amount of money for a good USB to S/PDIF bridge and have to buy a BNC-BNC cable. Best, nbpf

NBPF is clearly some steps ahead of me. There are many options around to dip your toe into streaming. Next to my ChromeCast Audio, I consider starting a project with my kids to build a Raspberry Pi with Dac which feeds my Supernait.

Cheapest for now seems to be the ChromeCast Audio which gives decent quality if you connect it via an optical cable to a Dac. I use either the Dac in my SuperNait 1, or the dac in my AV2. Slight difference but not much.

When I stream CD-rips from my NAS (wav files) via the ChromeCast Audio, I have no huge difference between my CD5i(talic) and the streamed version.

I have only noticed 'thin and weedy' sound when data was streamed using a lower bit rate e.g. by real time conversion to MP3.

On this topic Dozey tells about his experience using the ChromeCast Audio into a Naim NDS:

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...z-into-a-naim-system

I don't know the differences between all the various Naim related Dacs and decent non-Naim Dacs like the Hugo.

But what I do know, is that I was immediately in hifi-territory when I started to stream cd-rips to the ChromeCast Audio optically into an Naim AV2. I don't know if you know the AV2, but it was the Naim Surround Receiver. It also appears to be a good Stereo Dac. Solid bas (was not there when using the ChromeCast Audio Dac), sufficient detail and most importantly easy to use!

Synology Nas --> network --> ChromeCast Audio --> optical cable --> AV2 --> Supernait is just a cheap way to stream on a decent level. I'm sure setups like N272 / 250DR are better, but if you already have a Naim nDac, I would not even hesitate a second and order a ChromeCast Audio to explore the options. It's only 39 USD / EUR and it gives so much fun for the money. From there, you could try options as depicted by NBPF and get more advanced. Stuff like minimServer work also with the ChromeCast Audio and the majority of the time is in setting up the software. Once you are done on ChromeCast Audio, you can move quite easily to more advanced solutions.

Since HIFI is a hobby for many of us, significant part of the joy is to fiddle around with it rather than having a well-balanced setup.

If you order the ChromeCast Audio, dont forget to order an optical cable mini-toslink to toslink if you don't have one already.

Thanks Ardbeg10Y; yes NBPF is well ahead of me also...and thanks to you both. Interestingly a friend is considering the DIY raspberry route, so I'll watch with interest. Your comment about SQ from your NAS with Chromecast v the CD5i is thought provoking. I was obviously hoping that SQ would also come close to that via USB stick (Wav or Flac) into the nDAC, and CD through my CDX2/XpsDR set up.  I'll hope for some other user comments as well, but may well give it a go.

In my experience, when the ripped files are good, any Naim based route is ok. Some NAS software could convert files and this might cause problems. I had that when wav-rips got converted to MP3. Obvious drawback in quality.

I have currently on my wishlist an nDac because it has loads of ports and therefore any digital device can be connected (I have Aiport Express, Apple TV, ChromeCast Audio, the TV itselve, recent MacMini, RaspBerry Pi).

This nDac will then feed my Supernait and the Supernait is supposed to either drive the speakers in the living room, or the speakers in the telly room via a second power-amp. I have not figured out this, but the Supernait seems to be able to feed another amp or preamp using the record section.

If I was Naim, I would kill any development in their own apps and just focus on solid integration of Google Cast + AirPlay.

This, next to a killer-dac + keep up the work on the Amps they build. The Amps are what Naim distincts from other companies and makes me love them. I was hooked from the first moment.

Bit more back to the core competence of the company.

Whatever.

Ardbeg10y posted:
nbpf posted:
HardBop posted:

Very interesting to hear Ardbeg10Y's comments on Chromecast. Does this really offer an entry level solution to streaming with high quality replay? Is the Gramofon another option? I principally use CD, but have a growing collection of 16 and 24 bit downloads on my PC, from which I use a USB stick to feed the nDac. Very happy with sound quality, but a little inconvenient. So looking for a solution to dip my toe into the streaming market! Also, hoping it would enable me to stream local content from the downloaded files stored on my PC. I realise a miniMac is another option...and no doubt there are others, but obviously these solutions cost considerably more. Any thoughts? Thanks. 

I run MinimServer and upmpdcli (An UPnP Audio Media Renderer based on MPD) on a small fanless microserver connected (via USB to S/PDIF bridge) to a Naim DAC. My music library is on a 2TB HDD connected to the microserver via USB. Backup is on a couple of HDD in different locations via WLAN and rsync scripts. upmpdcli supports streaming Tidal contents but I have never tried it. If you like setting up your own server and renderer, I think that upmpdcli is a great tool for a single-room replay system with support for Tidal and internet radio. You can control it with Linn's Kazoo or any OpenHome control point of your choice. Linn Kazoo is very good works flawlessy with MinimServer. MinimServer allows you to browse your music collection according to your own indexing system. I can for instance select a composer, see all the works or compositions of that composers, pick up a specific work and see all interpretations of that work, etc. You can buy a decent microserver for around 200 EUR, check for instance the Fitlet devices at Tiny Green PC. You will have to spend about the same amount of money for a good USB to S/PDIF bridge and have to buy a BNC-BNC cable. Best, nbpf

... Next to my ChromeCast Audio, I consider starting a project with my kids to build a Raspberry Pi with Dac which feeds my Supernait.

...

I have a Raspberry Pi directly connected to my router (a FRITZ!Box) and to a 5TB HDD. I mainly use the Pi to access my LAN resources remotely, for instance, to backup my music files from my office. But I also have MinimServer and minidlna running on the Pi. This allows me to stream music to, among others, a ChromeCast Audio connected to an old radio in the kitchen and videos to a TV. Streaming from the Pi is via wireless and works flawlessly. With 24/192 files it takes a few seconds for replay to start but it then goes on without problems and without gaps. For basic streaming of audio and video contents and as a file server, the Pasperry Pi is great. It has been running for two or three years without interruption.

The other system described in my previous post is for dedicated listening and is completely separated from the Pi. There the microserver (a FitPC3) and the USB bridge are powered by linear PSUs and the connection between the bridge and the Naim DAC is through a Naim DC1. If you plan to connect the Naim DAC to a source that is not electrically clean, the best way to do so is via optical S/PDIF, in my view. If you have a clean source (typically a USB bridge with galvanic isolation) than electrical S/PDIF via a BNC-BNC connector is probably better.

It is true CCA does not do gapless. When the firmware update comes for my NDS I guess I will get gapless with no dropouts. To be honest I don't seem to listen to a lot of gapless stuff at the moment. The NDS/Tidal dropouts are a lot more annoying than small gaps which should not be there!

I have done some comparison of Tidal  CCA into NDS versus NDS doing the streaming (when it works - e.g. early on Sunday mornings). The NDS is better when it works. I think that this might be due to the CCA stream having more jitter. It is not night and day, however, in my system.

Thanks for the comments about Chromecast and gapless payback. I am aware of this problem, as using a USB stick into the nDac with FLAC files causes the same issue, but not with WAV files. I raised this on the Forum well over a year ago, before the last firmware upgrade, which solicited comments from Naim, but no solution has been forthcoming. It is a nuisance with classical and live albums, and has caused me to pause before trying Chromecast Audio. But for the price may well be still worth giving it a go.

Wolf R posted:

Unfortunately Chromecast Audio does not support true gapless playback and Google will probably never address this issue. Details can be found here: https://code.google.com/p/goog...issues/detail?id=745

Ooops, you are absolutely right! I have now checked my BubbleUPnP Server setup on the Raspberry Pi and for the Chromecast Audio there is indeed no Gapless replay option. Thanks for the precisation! I am really using the Chromecast only occasionally and for streaming from my laptop when I am on holiday. It is a nice device but I would not suggest it as a source for a Naim DAC. Best, nbpf

Tidal ok up until 14.00pm today and then been rubbish ever since. Cant even play it from the iPhone. I guess too many people on the internet but I have to say that I never had this issue whilst I had a Bluesound Node. When the ND5XS struggled with Tidal I just used to switch to the Node. On days like this I'm regretting selling it.

I was having this exact same problem with TIDAL drop outs on my SuperUniti and UnitiQute. It would be fine during the day but the drop outs would start in the evenings (presumably when either the traffic to TIDAL's servers or to my ISP had increased). I have a 75 Mbps connection to one of the biggest ISPs in the US and both my NAIM units are hardwired. I had no problem streaming high definition video.

Both TIDAL and NAIM said the issue was likely due to the ISP and NAIM said it was likely a latency related issue.

I didn't know what my ISP could do for me, but I contacted them. They suggested I replace my modem - the one I had was only 3-4 years old but was no longer supported by my ISP.

I replaced it with an ARRIS SURFboard SB6190 yesterday and played for hours until around 9.00 pm without a single drop-out. So I'm thinking this has resolved the issue.

I notice websites responding and loading with less delay with the new modem - which I think is indicative of reduced latency - and the only time the buffer bar moves now on my SU is at the beginning of a new track.

My previous modem was a SURFboard SB6141, which I thought was relatively high spec and up to date. It never occurred to me that the modem was the bottleneck.

I was getting to the point where I didn't want to use tidal due to the frustration, but I'd become reliant upon it and there were no good alternatives. I'm glad the issue seems to be resolved.

Phil,

Any update on the likely release of the new firmware which has the code to fix the dropouts at peak internet times? I have caught up late with this post. Very interesting discussions by SIS and other about latency and bandwidth earlier in the thread.  In my very simple understanding, since music playback in one way and unlike games where there is a lot of instructions back and forth and hence poor latency can be an issue. So way not simply have a bigger buffer size? Any impact of poor latency would be seen at the start of a new request.

Very interesting discussions by SIS and other about latency and bandwidth earlier in the thread.  In my very simple understanding, since music playback in one way and unlike games where there is a lot of instructions back and forth and hence poor latency can be an issue. So way not simply have a bigger buffer size? Any impact of poor latency would be seen at the start of a new request.

But it seems there is a fix in the works. some indication of when that will help. We can patiently wait for it then.

Thanks,

ASenna04

Asenna04 posted:

Phil,

Any update on the likely release of the new firmware which has the code to fix the dropouts at peak internet times? I have caught up late with this post. Very interesting discussions by SIS and other about latency and bandwidth earlier in the thread.  In my very simple understanding, since music playback in one way and unlike games where there is a lot of instructions back and forth and hence poor latency can be an issue. So way not simply have a bigger buffer size? Any impact of poor latency would be seen at the start of a new request.

Very interesting discussions by SIS and other about latency and bandwidth earlier in the thread.  In my very simple understanding, since music playback in one way and unlike games where there is a lot of instructions back and forth and hence poor latency can be an issue. So way not simply have a bigger buffer size? Any impact of poor latency would be seen at the start of a new request.

But it seems there is a fix in the works. some indication of when that will help. We can patiently wait for it then.

Thanks,

ASenna04

Hi,

I've raised this again to try to get a release date but be aware that this isn't a magic bullet that suddenly 'fixes the internet'.

We've done a lot of tweaking with the TIDAL guys to make the Uniti / ND / NAC-N code as resilient as we can to latency induced issues and it will help a number of users with issues streaming from TIDAL that are caused by a specific set of circumstances but it won't 'fix' everyone.

If you want to drop me a direct email ( phil.harris@naimaudio.com ) we can certainly see if getting the Beta code installed on your unit would be an appropriate thing to try...

Phil

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