Tidal on my NAIM app doesn't work properly...

Mike1951 posted:

Cleared the cache. OK for a while but soon back to the same problem. This suggests that the fault is with the app?

In any event, I'd appreciate at a reply from a NAIM rep that they are aware of the problem and are working to resolve it, at the least.

Further update from me after a few emails with Naim support.

- issue itself is occurring a bit less than before; but is happening and is unpredictable

- Naim support thinks this is an issue with my local loop (between router and exchange) becoming congested at times

- they also tell me that an ISP cannot really fix/control this issue

- they are working with Tidal to improve responses from streaming servers; no eta on firmware update

Looking at all the posts here, I really think this is down to the streaming/buffering difference for Naim streamers. Pretty gutted about not having some Tidal streaming reliability - I rely on this extensively for my listening...

 

Harry Thind posted:

Thanks Jack. I am sure you are correct. Is it true that wired connections have more latency?

I have used my ND5XS to stream Tidal for 4 years. Never had a glitch. Never. Moved to anew apartment, same set up, faster broadband speed but can't manage to play even a complete track anymore. Bummer. I have called an ISP tech over. Just not sure what to ask of him.

 

 

Did your faster broadband speed include a new cable modem/hub?  If so, that could be causing the problem, see here for a possible explanation:

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...pouts-probable-cause

I don't know what it is like in the UK or in Hong Kong but we have extremely variable download speeds here in Australia. I run this "speedtest" thing and my speed here varies from 1 Mbps to 7 Mbps. I have discovered a trick that sometimes gets the NDX unstuck. If you select the next track it will play. Then go back to the track which was stuck and it starts playing again.

Another trick which I discovered while reading and listening to music is that sometimes if you wait for a while the silence only lasts for 3 or 4 minutes and then the music starts playing for about 3 seconds and then dies again. Then you get another minute or so of silence and then the music comes back full time.

I think this whole streaming concept has been designed with the assumption that internet access is consistent and reliable but it isn't so in many parts of the world.

The Tidal App on my ND5 XS continues to drop off. Some times I can play several albums in a row and other times can not get through a single album without several interruptions. This is getting to be quite an annoyance. I can play the tidal app using my Mac Air or iPad with a set of headphones and never a dropoff. I'm accessing Tidal through the Mac Air and iPad using a wireless connection. The ND5 XS is using a direct Cat5e cable between the router and the ND5 XS. I would expect that the wireless connections would have more problems then the hard wired connections. The only thing I can suspect is that the Tidal app embedded in the Naim app is were the problem lies. Hoping this gets resolved soon as I am quickly losing faith and patience with the ND5 XS as a streaming solution. When it is working I love it, when it is not I'm starting to question my decision on the purchase. It is getting to be a real PITA not being able to turn on the app and just enjoy the music!

Frustrated and Venting!

The UPnP service with the NAS is great but the use of Tidal HiFi subscription was a main consideration with going with the NAIM ND5 XS to be able to listen to and review different music prior to purchase.

seakayaker posted:

The Tidal App on my ND5 XS continues to drop off. Some times I can play several albums in a row and other times can not get through a single album without several interruptions. This is getting to be quite an annoyance. I can play the tidal app using my Mac Air or iPad with a set of headphones and never a dropoff. I'm accessing Tidal through the Mac Air and iPad using a wireless connection. The ND5 XS is using a direct Cat5e cable between the router and the ND5 XS. I would expect that the wireless connections would have more problems then the hard wired connections. The only thing I can suspect is that the Tidal app embedded in the Naim app is were the problem lies. Hoping this gets resolved soon as I am quickly losing faith and patience with the ND5 XS as a streaming solution. When it is working I love it, when it is not I'm starting to question my decision on the purchase. It is getting to be a real PITA not being able to turn on the app and just enjoy the music!

The digital signal does not go via the app, it goes directly to your streamer, so you can't blame the app or iOS device for this issue. Still, very frustrating for you. Have you tried using Spotify? The sound quality isn't as good as Tidal, but to my mind it's better than Tidal in other respects, and may not be as prone to dropouts. 

You know, it just occurred to me. When sea kayaker uses a Mac Air or iPad the stream may be set to one of the lower bit rates like "Normal" or "High". Because the data bit rate would be lower they would automatically be more reliable. This would explain why Spotify is more reliable since it uses 160 to 320 kbits/second for "high quality streaming", whereas Tidal uses 1411 kbits/second uncompressed. When you use Tidal on your iPad it would be using "Normal" which I would imagine (don't actually know, can't find it on the web) would be roughly like the Spotify stream. If you want uncompressed CD quality music you have to deliver it at a rate that might not always be available where you live. That's why we have LP records :-)

 

Finkfan posted:

Maybe we should start another thread listing ISPs and routers stating wether there are any issues with Tidal 

Hi,

Can I say that personally I think this would be 'a very bad idea' as there are no specific ISPs that are overall "bad" for streaming and it's vary rare that there are specific routers that are overall "bad" for streaming either - even the recent post regarding the SuperHub3 and its Intel chipset is a little misleading as the SuperHub 3 is perfectly capable of being used with our kit and other streaming products without issues - it's usually a combinational thing where multiple factors contribute to the overall performance of a system and of course also can vary over time as the underlying infrastructures also change.

Phil

I agree with Phil that focussing on ISPs is not the right strategy. Having looked through various posts over the past few years on this topic, the issue is largely centred around two key issues: latency, which seems to be something that even the fastest internet connection cannot solve, AND Naim streamers lacking a buffer capacity (which is why other devices play just fine)... For the ones with a slightly more technical bent of mind, please see Simon-in-Suffolk's thoughts on this across various posts.

In my personal view, if latency cannot be solved (as per the emails with Naim support), then the problem really is the lack of the buffer. I'm sure there are very good reasons why this doesn't exist, but till there is no such buffer, sadly the Naim streamers aren't really reliable. I had around 10 interruptions in play today... I don't think using an NDS, NDX or ND5 as a DAC is a happy outcome for many of us... 

Not sure what a firmware update can do, but sincerely hope that I don't have to resort to low-res stuff at these price points....

 

 

I've now got 16Mbps download speed from the WISP. The TV and  the ND5XS are both ethernet-cabled into the router. 

Using just my Android device to relay Tidal with the Tidal app is fine.

Using THE NAIM app., Internet radio has been and is fine. 

Using it to relay Tidal has been fine but now,  all of a sudden, dropout again. Just when I try and relay from Tidal.

Dropout dropout dropout.

I think I read in another thread that NAIM and Tidal are working on the problem?  

I hope they get to a solution soon because I think I'm losing the will to live...

Mike1951 posted:

I've now got 16Mbps download speed from the WISP. The TV and  the ND5XS are both ethernet-cabled into the router. 

Using just my Android device to relay Tidal with the Tidal app is fine.

Using THE NAIM app., Internet radio has been and is fine. 

Using it to relay Tidal has been fine but now,  all of a sudden, dropout again. Just when I try and relay from Tidal.

Dropout dropout dropout.

I think I read in another thread that NAIM and Tidal are working on the problem?  

I hope they get to a solution soon because I think I'm losing the will to live...

I have periods where it will run for hours without a problem then the dropouts start up again. I usually switch over and listen to CD's ripped to the NAS for awhile then eventually go back to Tidal.

Would love to hear of a permanent solution to this drop-out problem. I really love the Tidal Hi-Fi service but when the drop-out start the love quickly fades. Not sure where the problem lies. I can listen to Tidal on headphones through a laptop or iPad without any drop-offs, it has only happened when using tidal through the Naim products that the drop-offs occur.  I understand your feelings of losing patience with living with this problem.

The other day I started getting dropouts when I kicked off an update on my iPhone and my iPad at the same time. I halted the updates and suddenly the music came back. I did a check of my speed which is normally 6 MBits/second and it was down at 1.5 Mbits/second (probably because everyone else in my district was downloading things, it was a sunday). I then restarted the updates and reran the speed test. It dropped to 0.75 Mbits/second.

When you say that you have 16 MBits/second, I bet that is a nominal figure. When the dropouts start, run a speed test and see what you are currently getting. I would bet that the speed in your area is variable like it is here.

Yes the speed drops off in the evenings, but I get dropouts during the day when I'm getting 15Mbps...

I hadn't realised that surrounding activity could cause the supplied speed to drop! Is this a side-effect of wireless provision? There's no other routing activity in my immediate area according to the "Wifi" analyser. The speed reading is taken using the "Speedtest" app.

It might be worth getting my system cabled-up...

As I understand it Naim recommends a CAT6 connection. I went to the trouble of getting an electrician in to put in a proper CAT6 cable and nice connections at both ends. Another tip is that every cable that you use, from the cables at the Modem end and the cables in your music room have to all be CAT6 or "bad things" will happen. I wish an actual Naim person would weigh in and tell us what is actually going on instead of having to guess at it ourselves.

I suspect your own WiFi is not the problem, but you can easily test this by using a wired connection. Just as a test, you can always just buy some very cheap cable from eBay and run it loose through the house to see if it helps. Any Cat5e or above cable will do. 

Mike1951 posted:

Well I've got a Cat7 cable linking the router to the streamer.

So I'm going to Cat7 the modem to the router and see if that does anything.

If that last-ditch attempt doesn't work,  I'd seriously consider replacing the ND5XS for a streamer with a buffering function as, according to some posts here,  this could be a strong sticking plaster over the problem. 

Any advice as to compatible makes?  Linn,  for instance? 

The issue has been discussed at length and it is pretty clear (to me) that, despite the amount of work spent by Naim towards developing more reliable firmware without compromising sound quality, streamers of the old generation will likely never be fully immune from occasional Tidal dropouts.

It seems also obvious that the degree to which dropouts occur, very much depends on a variety of factors that neither end users nor providers of internet streaming services or in fact Naim can fully control. Also, I understand that firmare support for Qobuz or other current and upcoming internet streaming services will likely not be developed for NDS, ND5XS, etc.

Perhaps it would be easier for owners of these devices to accept the limitations of the technology they have bought. These are great devices that still can deliver dropouts free internet streaming services with a simple workaround: just connect a Raspberry Pi with an Allo DigiOne (about 150 EUR with a decent case) to your NDS, ND5XS, etc. and enjoy Tidal, Qobuz, etc. without the agonizing pain. There are a number or alternatives solutions: some cost a little bit more, some a little bit less and most of them sound pretty good.

Sloop John B posted:
imperialline posted:

Why does a combo of Raspberry Pi + Allo DigiOne fix the Tidal dropout issue? Why can NDS not fix the issue despite the fact it costs 1,00,000 times more?

I'm afraid you got a poor bargain if you paid over £100,000 for an NDS. 

.sjb

Yes, it pains me and it shows how good a bargain the Rashberry PI is!!!

Connecting s "Raspberry Pi"  sounds like a good low cost option. 

Do I just buy one, box it, connect and power it up?

I suspect there's more to it than that. Which input on the ND5XS, for instance? Any software needed? Will i need an ethernet cable junction box to feed in the Pi plus the router? And so on...

A tutorial would be useful, especially as I'm now contemplating amateurishly adding a bit of random hardware to a NAIM system who's "shortcomings", if I may say, I'm not completely impressed with, having had to spend such a large amount of cash to acquire in the first place.

It seems to me that this product was poorly thought out in the first place,  to not be able to do what rival manufacturers' streamers don't seem to have a problem with.

imperialline posted:

Why does a combo of Raspberry Pi + Allo DigiOne fix the Tidal dropout issue? Why can NDS not fix the issue despite the fact it costs 1,00,000 times more?

They are completely different devices, designed and built to fulfil different tasks and specifications. The RPi is a full fledged single board computer with a relatively powerful CPu and plenty of memory. It does not need to sound good: a bare RPi is in fact, sound quality wise, rather miserable and its USB output is said to be very noisy. The Naim streamers are not general purpose computers. They come with a very limited amount of memory and have been designed to process low latency streams which they do very well indeed. Implementing support for Tidal, Qobuz, etc. for such devices has to be done in firmware (as opposed to the RPi where new code can be compiled on the device itself) and under tight memory constraints. This requires much higher device-specific expertise and higher development costs. It is a pity that Naim has chosen not to complement their range of dacs and streamers with a suitable front-end device. Initially I thought that the Core would be a solution of this and other problems but unfortunately it has turned out to be the source of even more troubles and, in my view, a very disappointing design. Still, as I wrote, there are plenty of alternatives, both low-price solutions (HiFIBerry Digi+ Pro, Allo DigiOne, Singxer USB to SPDIF interfaces) that require some system setup and installation skills and slightly more expensive ready to use solutions from Sonore, Auralic, etc.   

Mike1951 posted:

Connecting s "Raspberry Pi"  sounds like a good low cost option. 

Do I just buy one, box it, connect and power it up?

I suspect there's more to it than that. Which input on the ND5XS, for instance? Any software needed? Will i need an ethernet cable junction box to feed in the Pi plus the router? And so on...

A tutorial would be useful, especially as I'm now contemplating amateurishly adding a bit of random hardware to a NAIM system who's "shortcomings", if I may say, I'm not completely impressed with, having had to spend such a large amount of cash to acquire in the first place.

...

Hardware wise you would need to connect an RPi to your wired LAN network and the SPDIF output of the DigiOne (HiFIBerry Digi+ Pro, USB to SPDIF interface, etc.) to the SPDIF input of your streamer. I never had a Naim streamer but I understand that NDS, ND5XS, etc. all have a SPDIF input. In this setup the device is then used as a pure dac.

Software wise you will have to setup a system running a UPnP renderer or a music player that supports Tidal (Qobuz, etc.). There are a number of possibilities doing so, ranging from dedicated distributions like Volumio, minimal distributions with support for ready-to-use audio applications like DietPi, Roon endpoints and plain Raspbian installations. I use the latter approach and, in a nutshell, this boild down to:

1. Installing Raspbian Lite and enable support for the Allo DigiOne (HiFiBerry Digi+ Pro, USB to SPDIF interface, etc.)

2. Installing upmpdcli (and upmpdcli-tidal, upmpdcli-qobuz, etc.) and setting up your Tidal (Qobuz, etc.) credentials.

3. Opening a control point (BubbleUPnP, Linn Kazoo, Lumin, etc.) on a mobile device and accessing Tidal, Qobuz, etc. via the interface integrated in the control point.

There are probably better ways of accessing Tidal, Qobuz, etc. on a Raspberry Pi platform than the one outlined above. I am not particularly interested in these services and I have meanwhile de-installed upmpdcli-tidal and upmpdcli-qobuz in my current setup. 

Moderated Post: NBPF, I have edited a paragraph of your post.  Please ensure your posts comply with forum rules.  Thanks.

Mike1951 posted:

So I've had a look on Amazon and there's a couple of Auralic devices. They are streamers in their own right.

Are you suggesting them as a replacement for the nd5xs or as a plug-in to provide buffering?

I was not suggesting replacing the streamer but front-ending it with a RPi + Allo DigiOne, RPi + HiFiBerry Digi+ Pro, Sonore microRendo (plus USB to SPDIF bridge),  Auralic Aries Mini or similar.

The problem of front-ending Naim streamers has been also discussed in this forum in a slightly different context, see https://forums.naimaudio.com/topic/roon-with-nds.

Mike1951 posted:

...

It seems to me that this product was poorly thought out in the first place,  to not be able to do what rival manufacturers' streamers don't seem to have a problem with.

I never used Naim streamers but it seems to me that nDAC, NDS, ND5XS, etc. are actually great devices. In spite of being relatively old (things have been moving very fast in the last couple of years and internet streaming services were not very popular when these devices were designed), they are very simple and flexible, the nDAC in particular.

They can be easily front-ended with small devices that provide internet streaming services, Roon endpoints and all what is fashionable today. I actually like the engineering approach behing nDAC, NDS, ND5XS, etc. much more than the one behind the new Uniti range and I frankly do not understand why Naim has put so much efforts in supporting Tidal on these devices.

I would have preferred to see a small Naim Ethernet2SPDIF bridge that can be easily upgraded to support flawless playback of the most popular current and upcoming internet, Roon, etc. streaming services. With such a small device, Naim users fond of Roon, Tidal, Qobuz, etc. would have been able to make their nDACs, NDSs, ND5XSs Roon-ready, Tidal-ready or Qobuz-ready via a seamless Naim interface.

" I was not suggesting replacing the streamer but front-ending it with a RPi + Allo DigiOne, RPi + HiFiBerry Digi+ Pro, Sonore microRendo (plus USB to SPDIF bridge),  Auralic Aries Mini or similar."

Great, so.... The Aries Mini sits between the router and the ND5XS. Am I now using the Aries to access Tidal and Radio, or the ND5XS still?

And yes, It would have been nice to see  development of a NAIM box to do this job, but I don't think the resultant sales would have covered the development costs. Beside which, they'd want to push new buyers on to the next iterations like the Uniti...

And still selling the ND series stuff when it's obviously no longer up to the job seems a little sleazy.

Likes (2)
David Stewartmcn46
×
×
×
×