Time for a change??

Graham Russell posted:

I went for the "lowly" Transcendent. Such a massive improvement and has really opened up the clarity and transparency in the system. For more "welly" the Compas or Time woud hit the spot, obviously with associated price tags.

There is nothing lowly about the Transcendent speakers Graham, they have a beautifully balanced open sound.

 

I would certainly liked to have read about your experience :-)

Innocent Bystander posted:
Polarbear posted:
Innocent Bystander posted:
Polarbear posted:
christoph posted:
Polarbear posted:
christoph posted:

Polarbear, for me, loosing the wow factor has to do something with getting older. Music isn‘t the same as music with twenty, and sometimes i miss this intensity very hard. Maybe it is time for something totally different, a nait 2 with Spendor BC 1 or LS 3/5 and a good turntable or a tube based system with horns 😉. Christoph

Speak for yourself Christopher, I am not getting old and certainly not ready for the pipes and slippers yet. I have no intention of going out and buying a soft valves and horns based system 

sorry, maybe it is my bad english, nothing with slippers and pipes 😉the valve and horns based System i have in mind is fast and brutally clear. 

No, sorry it was me making a tongue in cheek comment about getting old, seriously though I am more than happy with the Prat that Naim gives and I like that upfront exciting sound.

For upfront exciting sound, possibly horns are a solution. I quite fancy trying these one day:

Ferguson Hill FH001

Ferguson Hill FH001 (apparently vasly improved after the already comlimentary reviews, changing to Voxativ drivers having removed a certain midrange prominence). Personally I’d consider maybe with Wilson Benesch Torus sub, rather than the ones shown here.

But might not be good with Naim amps, as they some people say tend to have somewhat more prominent hiss than ideal for such efficient speakers. Maybe that is where tubes come in?

They may not be great with Naim amps but I would certainly like to give that system a listen. It may not be something I could live with and Karen certainly wouldn't live with them. They certainly look like fun though 

My wife doesn’t like the look either - however I suspect that may be different if she saw them for real, as they are less visible than ‘normal’ large speakers.

I’ve always liked the idea of horns, but whilst they did wonderfully when I ran a rock disco (on my 50w hifi amp - but that’s another story), and truly sounded the part, in domestic surroundings the ones I’ve heard have tended to have a distinctive ‘shouty’ sound that I dislike - but they are renowned for a certain unevenness causing that problem, and good ones can be hard to find. I’d also prefer horn all the way down, but 8ft mouths for the bass are a non-starter. However, these particular ones do intrigue me, and now they’ve got that better and hugely more expensive) drive I would like to experience them.

Karen's open to all sorts of idea's and in the right house she would love a pair, Karen is more futuristic than I am. We have heard some great horn based systems, mainly at the HI-fi Wigwam Scalford show, if you ever get the chance to go you should. There are loads of eclectic systems, some are bloody awful but some of them memorise you with their sound. Its a great way of seeing so many weird and wonderful systems under one roof :-)

DaveBk posted:

I’m not sure what I can say, as it’s a well established fact that I know nothing about loudspeakers...

Guru QM10s - Look like black speed cameras, but a useful little LED to tell you they’re really rocking!

Ovator S600s - Bloated bass with no midrange Integration. Not a REAL Naim speaker...

Focal Scala Utopia V2s - OMG! Nasty glassy metallic sounding treble, and worst of all they’re French!

So, I will watch quietly and enjoy the debate... but if you ever want to hear nasty French loudspeakers in a decent room, let me know :-)

Dave.

You have owned some great speakers Dave and have so much to offer potential speaker buyers, you also have a great taste in shoes 

yeti42 posted:

I heard the Ktemas at a show a couple of years ago and they were the most enjoyable I heard all day, however, they only played jazz and some vocal music, intriguing though, can you still buy them?

Yes, the company is still around and has introduced a third speaker posthumously. It is called Lignea and can be seen as a modern Minima, just as the Accordo is the modern Cremona Auditor. The last Serblin designed Sonus faber speakers, like the Auditor, were clearly able to handle non-acoustic music, at least to ears. The Serblin named company is run by a son in law of Franco Serblin.

Polarbear posted:
nigelb posted:

I was the first to respond to your plea, tentatively suggesting the new Kudos Titan speaker range. Now I have a better idea what you are after from a new speaker set, being inevitably that elusive musical engagement thing that we all seek more of as we scale the system capability ladder.

You have also more recently in this thread mentioned specifically the impressive Kudos Titan 505. I recently spoke of this speaker on another thread having heard it in the poor conditions of the Bristol show being powered by 'just' a bare Nova, in turn fed directly by a Innuos Zenith server. That was it, no other boxes present. Not sure if this is also where you heard the 505, but I was stunned how wonderful this simple system sounded in such an unhelpful listening room. It made me feel that my multi black box separate Naim Classic system was in need of new speakers. I think I said in the other thread that if I was starting out, I would get a Nova and a pair of 505s, no doubt about it.

I returned to this room at the show 3 or 4 times. To me it was the best room I visited, embarrassing systems many times the price I heard that day. As I have no access to your ears or brain, I cannot be sure these speakers (or their larger siblings) will engage you more in the music. All I know is when I was listening to the Nova/505 system all I was thinking was how great the musical performances were and trying desperately to leave the room so I could get around more of the show. I kept hearing a voice in my head saying...'just one more track, then I'll move on to another room'....and that is the very best sign to me of a great music-making system.

Evening Nigel, yes I was talking about the Naim/Kudos room at the Bristol show, one of the best show showings I have heard for a long time. So simple, clear and musical. Karen I were blown away with the sound. We only visited a handful of rooms, the Kudos two, the Neats and the Naims, we didn't visit any other rooms as the sound coming from the rooms was appalling.

We sat there listening for many tracks, chatting to Derek and Dave of Kudos, Bristol is more of a socialising event for us nowadays and great music is a bonus.  It was a shame to hear the bigger Kudos murdered next door by the Audioquest room, shocking sound!

Yes, it was the 606s I really wanted to hear and it is a shame they were 'wasted' on an Audioquest cable and power block demo, even though they were powered by an active Linn rig. On previous occasions, I have heard the 707s powered by full Naim rigs (Classic and 500 series) in both passive and active modes. On both occasions and they too were extremely impressive. But that Nova/505 demo was something else - magical. Possibly because, as HH intimated, expectations were relatively low.

Clearly there is a chemistry (others might call it a synergy) between the new Kudos Titan range and Naim kit IMHO. Indeed Derek, at the show, told me how he had used Naim gear in the design and refinement of the new Kudos Titan range. I am guessing these are on your shortlist and I would be fascinated to hear if these speakers give you the x factor, the engagement, you now seek. Speakers form other manufacturers are of course available!

I forget your taste in music, Nigel, and have not heard the by all reports much improved Kudos ~Titans. I was very underwhelmed by the 1st generation ones compared to my SL2s. If you mainly listen to music that is played through amplification and box speakers in live performance, then the new ones could be a great choice and you obviously enjoyed the presentation of their younger siblings. However, if you like live acoustic and large-scale classical in particular, you owe it to yourself to listen to some big Shahinians. They have completely transformed my satisfaction with hi-fi.

nigelb posted:
Polarbear posted:
nigelb posted:

I was the first to respond to your plea, tentatively suggesting the new Kudos Titan speaker range. Now I have a better idea what you are after from a new speaker set, being inevitably that elusive musical engagement thing that we all seek more of as we scale the system capability ladder.

You have also more recently in this thread mentioned specifically the impressive Kudos Titan 505. I recently spoke of this speaker on another thread having heard it in the poor conditions of the Bristol show being powered by 'just' a bare Nova, in turn fed directly by a Innuos Zenith server. That was it, no other boxes present. Not sure if this is also where you heard the 505, but I was stunned how wonderful this simple system sounded in such an unhelpful listening room. It made me feel that my multi black box separate Naim Classic system was in need of new speakers. I think I said in the other thread that if I was starting out, I would get a Nova and a pair of 505s, no doubt about it.

I returned to this room at the show 3 or 4 times. To me it was the best room I visited, embarrassing systems many times the price I heard that day. As I have no access to your ears or brain, I cannot be sure these speakers (or their larger siblings) will engage you more in the music. All I know is when I was listening to the Nova/505 system all I was thinking was how great the musical performances were and trying desperately to leave the room so I could get around more of the show. I kept hearing a voice in my head saying...'just one more track, then I'll move on to another room'....and that is the very best sign to me of a great music-making system.

Evening Nigel, yes I was talking about the Naim/Kudos room at the Bristol show, one of the best show showings I have heard for a long time. So simple, clear and musical. Karen I were blown away with the sound. We only visited a handful of rooms, the Kudos two, the Neats and the Naims, we didn't visit any other rooms as the sound coming from the rooms was appalling.

We sat there listening for many tracks, chatting to Derek and Dave of Kudos, Bristol is more of a socialising event for us nowadays and great music is a bonus.  It was a shame to hear the bigger Kudos murdered next door by the Audioquest room, shocking sound!

Yes, it was the 606s I really wanted to hear and it is a shame they were 'wasted' on an Audioquest cable and power block demo, even though they were powered by an active Linn rig. On previous occasions, I have heard the 707s powered by full Naim rigs (Classic and 500 series) in both passive and active modes. On both occasions and they too were extremely impressive. But that Nova/505 demo was something else - magical. Possibly because, as HH intimated, expectations were relatively low.

Clearly there is a chemistry (others might call it a synergy) between the new Kudos Titan range and Naim kit IMHO. Indeed Derek, at the show, told me how he had used Naim gear in the design and refinement of the new Kudos Titan range. I am guessing these are on your shortlist and I would be fascinated to hear if these speakers give you the x factor, the engagement, you now seek. Speakers form other manufacturers are of course available!

I think it was more the simplicity of the Naim/Kudos combo at Bristol which appealed. There were no expectations going to the show and no thoughts about the price bracket, as you say the sound was magical.

I know Derek uses Naim equipment to voice his speakers, I believe the majority of Kudos users are Naim owners, hence their popularity of their speakers on this forum.

 

I have heard the 606's at Peters briefly, however they were straight out of the box and cold, hence why I was looking forward to hearing them at the Bristol show. Unfortunately they were not being show at their best and I am yet to hear them properly. Saying that the 606's are going to be too small for me. My living room is vast and I prefer the composure of larger speakers. I do want to hear the 707's and the 808's at my place.

 

stuart.ashen posted:

I think Christopher M has it! Moth ball the Arts. Buy some legacy classic speakers (Kan, SBL etc). Enjoy the ride and switch the Arts back in when you start to crave some more refinement. 

Cheap solution too!

Stu

Nice thought but too small for me, I have had SL2's in a smaller room and their presentation was far too small for my liking.

Michael_B. posted:

I forget your taste in music, Nigel, and have not heard the by all reports much improved Kudos ~Titans. I was very underwhelmed by the 1st generation ones compared to my SL2s. If you mainly listen to music that is played through amplification and box speakers in live performance, then the new ones could be a great choice and you obviously enjoyed the presentation of their younger siblings. However, if you like live acoustic and large-scale classical in particular, you owe it to yourself to listen to some big Shahinians. They have completely transformed my satisfaction with hi-fi.

Likewise, I had the first generation 88's in our house when they were first introduced, I enjoyed them but preferred the ART's when they came back into the room. Musical tastes are varied, it ranges from the heavy rock, heavy metal which I still have a fondness for, to the simple vocalists. I am not a great lover of large scale classical music although have been known to play the odd classical CD.

 

I will have a look at the larger Shahinian speakers, I have heard them before and struggled with the Omni directional side to them. I am also not sure Karen would want them in our living room but there is no harm in re-visiting them.

Polarbear posted:
stuart.ashen posted:

I think Christopher M has it! Moth ball the Arts. Buy some legacy classic speakers (Kan, SBL etc). Enjoy the ride and switch the Arts back in when you start to crave some more refinement. 

Cheap solution too!

Stu

Nice thought but too small for me, I have had SL2's in a smaller room and their presentation was far too small for my liking.

Without having heard them, I suspect that the titans have moved the game on a bit from where Naim's sbl and sl2 left off.  If you want to try a pair of nibbles in the mix when your auditioning gets under way let me know, but I suspect the same applies with the current drivers available.

Peter

Polarbear posted:
Michael_B. posted:

I forget your taste in music, Nigel, and have not heard the by all reports much improved Kudos ~Titans. I was very underwhelmed by the 1st generation ones compared to my SL2s. If you mainly listen to music that is played through amplification and box speakers in live performance, then the new ones could be a great choice and you obviously enjoyed the presentation of their younger siblings. However, if you like live acoustic and large-scale classical in particular, you owe it to yourself to listen to some big Shahinians. They have completely transformed my satisfaction with hi-fi.

Likewise, I had the first generation 88's in our house when they were first introduced, I enjoyed them but preferred the ART's when they came back into the room. Musical tastes are varied, it ranges from the heavy rock, heavy metal which I still have a fondness for, to the simple vocalists. I am not a great lover of large scale classical music although have been known to play the odd classical CD.

 

I will have a look at the larger Shahinian speakers, I have heard them before and struggled with the Omni directional side to them. I am also not sure Karen would want them in our living room but there is no harm in re-visiting them.

My tastes are obscenely wide (ask Peter what I have subjected him to!)  I thin there's too much talk about the whole omni business. But once I gave a pair of Obelisks a good listen I started to appreciate what they do. It is of course an illusion, but then so is all hi-fi. However, I find it corresponds much more to the excitement of a live performance and in a very unforced way that lives in the room.

Zina finds the Diapasons less of an ugly presence than she did the SL2 penguins, partly because they are lower and can be wheeled around. Anyway, if you can't think of anything better to do with your time, you are welcome to come and stay (in a bedroom!) and see what they get up to with the same front and amplification as you have. Or just pop down for a day.

Mike

To throw my rather biased hat into the ring i would have to recommend the Vivid Audio Giya range. Musical seduction at its finest if you dont mind the space age styling - personally i love it, and harldy notice it. With more space I'd be at the front of the queue for a pair of G2's.  With lottery funding I would be inviting them to pop round with the G1 Spirits to my newly acquried mansion. maybe picking up a Statement on the way .  The G3's work wonderfully in my reasonable  space. Upgrading from a 300(non DR) to a NAP500(non DR) gave me face ache for months, the grip was palpable.  I couldnt stop smiling.  I think this brand could scratch your itch mr Bear.

northpole posted:
Polarbear posted:
stuart.ashen posted:

I think Christopher M has it! Moth ball the Arts. Buy some legacy classic speakers (Kan, SBL etc). Enjoy the ride and switch the Arts back in when you start to crave some more refinement. 

Cheap solution too!

Stu

Nice thought but too small for me, I have had SL2's in a smaller room and their presentation was far too small for my liking.

Without having heard them, I suspect that the titans have moved the game on a bit from where Naim's sbl and sl2 left off.  If you want to try a pair of nibbles in the mix when your auditioning gets under way let me know, but I suspect the same applies with the current drivers available.

Peter

Yes, the 808's and 707's have moved on from the original 88's as JN will vouch for. I know he swapped his original 88's for the new 707's and is very happy. 

 

I am sure you will recall that I had the SL2's many years ago and loved the openness and transparency of them. What I wanted was a bigger version with bass and sound staging. Along came the NBL's which were amazing speakers but I fell for the Neat MF9's. It was their composure and their ability to paint a 3d picture of sound in front of you. Sadly the SL2's and NBL's were discountinued which was a great shame, it would be fantastic to see modern versions of them with current drivers :-)

Michael_B. posted:
Polarbear posted:
Michael_B. posted:

I forget your taste in music, Nigel, and have not heard the by all reports much improved Kudos ~Titans. I was very underwhelmed by the 1st generation ones compared to my SL2s. If you mainly listen to music that is played through amplification and box speakers in live performance, then the new ones could be a great choice and you obviously enjoyed the presentation of their younger siblings. However, if you like live acoustic and large-scale classical in particular, you owe it to yourself to listen to some big Shahinians. They have completely transformed my satisfaction with hi-fi.

Likewise, I had the first generation 88's in our house when they were first introduced, I enjoyed them but preferred the ART's when they came back into the room. Musical tastes are varied, it ranges from the heavy rock, heavy metal which I still have a fondness for, to the simple vocalists. I am not a great lover of large scale classical music although have been known to play the odd classical CD.

 

I will have a look at the larger Shahinian speakers, I have heard them before and struggled with the Omni directional side to them. I am also not sure Karen would want them in our living room but there is no harm in re-visiting them.

My tastes are obscenely wide (ask Peter what I have subjected him to!)  I thin there's too much talk about the whole omni business. But once I gave a pair of Obelisks a good listen I started to appreciate what they do. It is of course an illusion, but then so is all hi-fi. However, I find it corresponds much more to the excitement of a live performance and in a very unforced way that lives in the room.

Zina finds the Diapasons less of an ugly presence than she did the SL2 penguins, partly because they are lower and can be wheeled around. Anyway, if you can't think of anything better to do with your time, you are welcome to come and stay (in a bedroom!) and see what they get up to with the same front and amplification as you have. Or just pop down for a day.

Mike

I will be seeing Peter soon, we have already had a chat on the phone, I am sure he will remind me of your musical taste's. I do recall an evening of listening with Mr Phillips many years ago on our way to Hong Kong to visit another forum member. That was a memorable trip, too many systems and loudspeakers to remember.

I know we have a really busy couple of months coming up, but we will see if we have a weekend free to come and listen to the Shanians and catch up 

Nagual posted:

To throw my rather biased hat into the ring i would have to recommend the Vivid Audio Giya range. Musical seduction at its finest if you dont mind the space age styling - personally i love it, and harldy notice it. With more space I'd be at the front of the queue for a pair of G2's.  With lottery funding I would be inviting them to pop round with the G1 Spirits to my newly acquried mansion. maybe picking up a Statement on the way .  The G3's work wonderfully in my reasonable  space. Upgrading from a 300(non DR) to a NAP500(non DR) gave me face ache for months, the grip was palpable.  I couldnt stop smiling.  I think this brand could scratch your itch mr Bear.

Strangely enough, thats not a bad shout, we have heard a pair of Vivid Audio Giya and our opinions differ, Karen loves them whereas I find them to be too polite and nice., very much like Grahams Avelons but much bigger.

Hi PB.

Now you are left with 400 speaker suggestions and a few people, who have suggested to look at changing the wiring loom and having the black boxes DRed. Pipe and slippers me I strongly join that club, as there is so much more to be had from the old green logoed boxes . I actually think that after that speaker/ room matching will be even easier and more enjoyable. ATB Peter

911gt3r posted:

Hi PB.

Now you are left with 400 speaker suggestions and a few people, who have suggested to look at changing the wiring loom and having the black boxes DRed. Pipe and slippers me I strongly join that club, as there is so much more to be had from the old green logoed boxes . I actually think that after that speaker/ room matching will be even easier and more enjoyable. ATB Peter

Hi Peter,

 

Yes I agree there is more to come from the black boxes but at his moment in time a need for a new pair of speaker is more important as in a few weeks it could be very quiet in our house 

Polarbear posted:

 

Yes I agree there is more to come from the black boxes but at his moment in time a need for a new pair of speaker is more important as in a few weeks it could be very quiet in our house 

That's an interesting little comment Nigel! 

tonym posted:
Polarbear posted:

 

Yes I agree there is more to come from the black boxes but at his moment in time a need for a new pair of speaker is more important as in a few weeks it could be very quiet in our house 

That's an interesting little comment Nigel! 

Yes, I really do believe there is more to come from the black boxes 

northpole posted:

Maybe PB is going to try out a set of headphones as an alternative.....  or maybe not!

Peter

Hmm, a nice pair of Stax Electrostatics would do nicely, now thats a thought! Maybe a pair of Magneplanar big Electrostatics loudspeakers would be worth auditioning 

Getting away from the usual suspects I've been very happy with Davone Grandes in my large living space.  They may not be easy to find to audition, however, and I can't vouch for the new (Mark 2?) version which has gone from a silk dome tweeter to an inverted beryllium one and may sound quite different.  Probably worth a listen, tho.

Tallan posted:

Getting away from the usual suspects I've been very happy with Davone Grandes in my large living space.  They may not be easy to find to audition, however, and I can't vouch for the new (Mark 2?) version which has gone from a silk dome tweeter to an inverted beryllium one and may sound quite different.  Probably worth a listen, tho.

Well they certainly look different but they remind me of Focal speakers especially with those Beryllium tweeters. I would imagine they need very carefully matching. Partner them with the wrong amp and I would imagine they could screech a bit 

Well the ART's are still in place, still waiting for a man with a big van   then its going to be testing time, you can't listen to speakers with big red speakers in the way. Going to start with the 707's and then move up to the 808's to see how the room handles the bass output. Something I have struggled with, with the ART's and one of the main reasons why I am looking to change. Another four foot of space either side of the ART's would have been ideal 

I'm baffled.  Or rather, should your living room be?  Just wondering PB if there are any passive acoustic baffles available which could help tune your room to damp out excessive bass enabling the Arts to better perform and allow you to enjoy all the other bits which made them appeal to you in the first place.  Or does there come a point where certain laws of physics dictate "Houston, we have a problem".

Looking forward to reading how you get on with the Kudos family!

Peter

northpole posted:

I'm baffled.  Or rather, should your living room be?  Just wondering PB if there are any passive acoustic baffles available which could help tune your room to damp out excessive bass enabling the Arts to better perform and allow you to enjoy all the other bits which made them appeal to you in the first place.  Or does there come a point where certain laws of physics dictate "Houston, we have a problem".

Looking forward to reading how you get on with the Kudos family!

Peter

Good point. I think my old office/listening room you visited, Nigel, was carpeted at the time. Later on I ripped out the carpets and had a solid oak floor laid on top of the old floorboards, which tightened up the bass remarkably - and that was just with the SL2s and an nSub..... None of which applies, of course, if your room has a solid floor.

There is nothing to be baffled about Peter, I have simply served my time with the ART's, I have had them for ten years, they have grown with my system and have been here for longer than any other speaker I have had. I just fancy a change, I really enjoy the Kudos speakers when I visit Peters and spend time there enjoying them. Its obvious to me that things have moved on since I bought the ART and am looking forward to the next chapter in my journey 

Polarbear posted:

There is nothing to be baffled about Peter, I have simply served my time with the ART's, I have had them for ten years, they have grown with my system and have been here for longer than any other speaker I have had. I just fancy a change, I really enjoy the Kudos speakers when I visit Peters and spend time there enjoying them. Its obvious to me that things have moved on since I bought the ART and am looking forward to the next chapter in my journey 

Enjoy: Any demo with Peter is always a pleasure!

Michael_B. posted:
Polarbear posted:

There is nothing to be baffled about Peter, I have simply served my time with the ART's, I have had them for ten years, they have grown with my system and have been here for longer than any other speaker I have had. I just fancy a change, I really enjoy the Kudos speakers when I visit Peters and spend time there enjoying them. Its obvious to me that things have moved on since I bought the ART and am looking forward to the next chapter in my journey 

Enjoy: Any demo with Peter is always a pleasure!

I know   I have to drive by his place every night, I often pop in for coffee and a listen 

Michael_B. posted:
northpole posted:

I'm baffled.  Or rather, should your living room be?  Just wondering PB if there are any passive acoustic baffles available which could help tune your room to damp out excessive bass enabling the Arts to better perform and allow you to enjoy all the other bits which made them appeal to you in the first place.  Or does there come a point where certain laws of physics dictate "Houston, we have a problem".

Looking forward to reading how you get on with the Kudos family!

Peter

Good point. I think my old office/listening room you visited, Nigel, was carpeted at the time. Later on I ripped out the carpets and had a solid oak floor laid on top of the old floorboards, which tightened up the bass remarkably - and that was just with the SL2s and an nSub..... None of which applies, of course, if your room has a solid floor.

Shhh, don't mention that to Karen, she would love a solid oak floor. Not sure it would suit our place though and its not been that long since we had our last re-fit. The last re-fit with new carpet and underlay did improve SQ somewhat 

Well, I don’t understand how changing a carpet for solid flooring can improve bass, and neither do I understand the transient nature of liking a pair of speakers for a while then tiring of them, or wanting more if they were so right earlier, so I think I have to back out of this thread.

all the best with what you decide to go for.

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nigelbMichaelForester
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