Unstable Radio/Tidal

my system generally works well and esp upnp streaming is flawless. My cable broadband has stability issues which leads to drops in internet radio/tidal, which is very annoying. Several upgrades have resolved other problems eg websurf and netflix.

Lets assume that my local network is solid as great upnp performance would suggest (mesh network connected via ethernet except a 3 meter wifi bridge to naim system not using nd555 wifi, cisco 2960 in router room for unitiserve, NAS and connection to linksys router). 

What other problems could cause unstable esp internet radio?

1) source - unstable tidal/internet radio servers - have you experienced unstable service from these services while everything else work? This would be the simplest explanation but also hard to fix. Can I see performance somewhere of the radio channels I use (mainly local danish ones from national broadcaster in 192/320). 

2) Unstable connectivity to the socket (this is what my cable provider is still monitoring)

3) socket to modem to router configuration - i use a new docsis 3.1 modem from my provider only as modem, and connects following linksys mesh system instructions the modem wan out to the linksys mother router that sets up a separate LAN that all devices use. The LAN setup by the modem is not accessed by any devices. Can something go wrong in this simple manual based setup, eg any services to turn off on the cable modem?

any thoughts much appreciated

br Lars

Original Post

I’m not sure wether you are saying your ND555 is using WiFi or not?

But if the ND555 is using WiFi, then that is certainly the first thing to change. You can easily use an Ethernet cable just laid across the floor from ND555 to router or switch and see whether the problem persists.

best

David

Thanks David, the ND555 is plugged via ethernet to a mesh unit, this mesh units connects to another mesh unit via wifi that is 3 meters away. I then have ethernet all way to router/server room. This is rock solid for hires streaming, so dont see why wifi bridge would be a problem. I live in a rental place and am not able to put more cable in the walls and wife does not want cable as would be very visible due to layout of our living room. I can of course try to put a ethernet cable to check, but as said works well w upnp/hires.

what else could be the problem? Any similar experience?

Br Lars

 

As I have said before, mesh units are not great for streaming.. they more nodes you have in a chain the more throughput performance falls off.. certainly not ideal for streaming.

Ethernet connected overlapping cooperating access points acting as an ESSID is optimal for streaming throughput, not mesh. Ubiquiti, along with many other vendors, offer suitable products (as well as mesh products)

Mesh is usually about providing maximum coverage with minimal infrastructure requirements at the expense of throughput and ultimate performance.

Further it’s a complete no-no to connect an Ethernet segment to non Adhoc configured Wifi access point back to the router as you have done in terms of network performance... you will be tricking the the streamer network transport configuration into the wrong mode of operation. I am advised that Naim have different transport profiles for Wifi and Ethernet for optimum performance..

To be honest I am impressed it works as well it does right now, but reliability and dropouts will be highly likely.

So either go Ethernet, or Ethernet fed Wifi access points...and it should be fine... or at least then any  issues won’t be caused by your home network. If you have to use a Wifi link in a chain make sure the devices are private and locked down and specifically that they are configured in Wifi Adhoc mode, which is a special mode of Wifi setup for Wifi point to point setups... many consumer access points don’t however offer this. Such a link will be less performant than Ethernet.. but is how you set up Wifi for optimum operation over point to point links.. and is less likely to interfere with the Naim streamer mode of operation.

Many thanks Simon.

I fully agree that over the air mesh is not good for streaming as the general solution. This is also not what I have mostly. I have 3 mesh/wifi nodes. 2 are connected via ethernet backhaul in different ends of our flat (one in living room w naim system, one in ‘server/router/modem/ nas/us room’). The last one is in my rack and is in the living room as one of the ethernet connected ones and only 3 meters meters away from it. In the linksys mesh setup, the ND555 has dedicated network priority as a setting, ie always protected. My broadband access is 300mbit so good enough in terms of speed.

As mentioned, there is never drop-outs when I play hires/ripped music on upnp which goes from NAS room to living room. I am therefore puzzled if the wifibridge should cause lower bitrate transfers from internet radio to drop. Makes sense? I could understand if eg internet transfer protocol is different and w less buffer on my LAN.

hence my question if there can be other rootcauses

would really appreciate your advise - and yes would wish i could wire the whole thing...

br Lars

I was going to say it is unlikely you have local streaming dropouts, especially with the new streaming architecture.. as it is far better able to handle elastic data transfers (delayed bursts of transfer) and the RTD (round trip delay) will be negligible  ... however over internet you will probably find the source is bandwidth limited, lower end to end throughput and a higher RTD.. which means the your home network needs to be as transparent as possible for web streaming so as to minimise the likelihood of dropouts... hopefully that makes sense and relatively easy to understand.

Yes I have had Tidal dropouts on my NDX, but only have a relatively slow 3mbps broadband link so can’t say if that still be the case when Superfast finally comes to my village.. I use BubbleUPnP Server as a proxy.. you can’t use the Naim app with it.. but it irons out the dropouts on older architectures..

Yes speed comes into when very low - and its tends to be the uplink which in my case is about 460kbps,  where the issues can arise... so yes looking forward to significantly better connectivity.... however higher speed doesn't make the issue automatically go away - as the real cause is latency or round trip delay. When your link becomes congested which is more likely with lower connectivity speeds this then this can push latency up and increase packet loss and resultant retry... with the older Naim architecture with more limited network transport memory  it is this latency that can cause drop outs  

Simon - I managed to run full ethernet as am working from home today. So ethernet network from modem to nd555. I still got dropout, so am not sure wifibridge is my problem.

in home i could also check stability of the ethernet in the walls but its setup by professionals. Also nd555 does buffer 30secs on radio like on upnp (ie plays when i unplug cable), so dropout is quite long.

really wonder what it can be. It might be broadband access that is still not stable from my provider..

it is really unlikely ethernet in the walls is an issue (though is worth checking to make sure a small wire hasn't gone out open circuit - and the link is working at half duplex or something) - curious about the buffering playing out and you still get dropout... do you get drop outs whilst it is playing out from buffer? If so perhaps your ND555 needs checking...

If what is your uplink speed ... and carrier and ISP router? Does this happen when your link is loaded or also when unloaded?

You could do as a little test use a 4G mobile setup as a tether - and then connect your ND555 wirelessly to it and see if your internet radio or Tidal still has dropouts

Thanks Simon, i dont get dropout during buffer but given it comes sporadic every 15 to 60mins would also be low chance (except if nd555 was faulty)

i have 300/70 down/up and a new modem from sagemcom, router service is done by linksys velop. Dropout happens also when I have no other traffic in the network.

great idea with 4g test! Really like it, have such a modem at the weekend home so will bring that

many thx!

Thanks Simon - will do. I live in denmark in the middle of capital copenhagen, and use the incumbent tdc/yousee. They are still monitering the line due to the intermittend problems so could still be the rootcause as mentioned in my original post.

Simon - problem seems finally result and wifi bridge was NOT the issue

1) ISP technician was here to replace faulty modem based on intermittend speed faults they have on the new model I got

2) Double NAT - My isp modem setup a LAN and linksys Velop setup a second with a difference range. This is supported by linksys, but double nat as you surely know impact quality of service features for time-critical use-cases like - streaming. This is likely rookie mistake but it could be the cause of others having instable wifi by using own routers for wifi to get better in-home performance. Solution was to put linksys velop in bridge mode so Isp modem does LAN, and linksys still does wifi w ethernet backhaul.

thx for the help!

br Lars

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