Upgrading my Naim system

Hello everyone.

My name is Denny

I haven't been active on this forum 4 ages as I unfortunately lost interest in my HiFi hobby for many years.

Well I'm back, and I hope you fellow forum members forgive me for my drop out?!

 

Here's the thing!

I was thinking of upgrading my 14 year old Naim system with a FlatCap.

As I have an old Naim system it was the FlatCap 1st generation series which was an option for my HiFi 14 years ago.

FlatCap 1st generation series is long gone discontinued.

FlatCap 2x is the 2nd generation series, this is also long gone discontinued.

FlatCap XS is the current 3rd generation series.

If I manage to find a used FlatCap to buy, which one should I go for?

Series 1 or series 2 or series 3 improving my 14 year old Naim system?

 

This is my Naim kit I have owned for about 14 years:

Naim NAC112

Naim NAP150

Naim CD5

Naim Stageline MM series

Naim speaker/interconnect cables

ProJect 1.2 vinyl record player

Epos M5 speakers

StanDesign HiFi rack and speaker stands

Supra LoRad mains cable for for amplifier and cd-player

Supra MB06 SP/EU - mainsblock and LoRad mains lead

 

Would you recommend Supra stuff for Naim system or not?

I have the possibility to buy Supra items for low cost below store price.

This is one of the reason why I replaced my Naim mains lead to Supra LoRad mains cable, buying Supra items cheap and for reducing possible EMI and RFI.

 

I appreciate your expertise in which FlatCap to buy?

Maybe one of you forum members have a clean - re-capped FlatCap 4-SALE, please let me know what you have.

 

Is there a buy and sell section in this forum?

 

Thanks for your help

Denny

Original Post

The contemporary flatcap to your system is the flatcap 2 which had one 24-0-24V output for the Nait 5 or 112 and if I remember correctly a 22-0-22V for the CD5 not the 2x which came with the x suffix amps and CD5x which had 2 of 24-0-24V outputs. There was an earlier olive flatcap, the one you want is the first of the black ones. There is a review on TNT audio of the CD5x  which compares it to. CD5 with a flatcap 2 and there is a link at the end to a review of the 2x. Copy this into your browser without the quotes.

"http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/naim_cd5x_e.html"

What weight you give the review is up to you.

Hi

I don't think I want to swap to a newer pre-amp  as I won't get any money for my old NAC112.

I will stick with what I already have and add a FlatCap if I can find one???

 

If there is no buy/sell section on this forum.

Where in UK can I find a used FlatCap for my HiFi?

Are there any good webshops?

I know about Tom-Tom Audio, they never have any FC's

I would always seek the advice of a Naim dealer when using 3rd party wires.  Chord are universally recognised for being compatible with Naim and some of the guys do really well with Tellaqurium. I know guys who swear by Supra with other gear but I'd take advice. 

Welcome to the Forum. 

Regards,

Lindsay

yeti42 posted:

There are various used hifi dealers around, if you read the forum rules you'll see why we're not sending you directly to them but Google will find a lot of them and even a metasite or two. Search for what you're after.

hifi shops are in business with naim company sellling their products.

is that an offense for forum members recommending links for good webshops selling used naim stuff?

It will be hard finding an FC2, don't want to buy one from ebay as i don't know what i'm buying?

The Strat (Fender) posted:

I would always seek the advice of a Naim dealer when using 3rd party wires.  Chord are universally recognised for being compatible with Naim and some of the guys do really well with Tellaqurium. I know guys who swear by Supra with other gear but I'd take advice. 

Welcome to the Forum. 

Regards,

Lindsay

thanx for your warm welcome

my buddy who's the no.1 geek for hifi used to have a chord hifi many years ago.

i asked him recently about chord company cables if they are the one and same company for chord electronics?

they are not he replied, they are 2 different companies

I was thinking of getting a better mains lead from chord company.

my buddy told me i was buying snake oil if i wasted hundreds of pounds on a chord cable!

it got me confused about chord so i didn't buy any cable from this company.

so i stick with my supra lorad cables.

don't know what is good or bad mains lead for naim???

Hungryhalibut posted:

All you need is the mains lead that comes with the Naim equipment. You say you don't want a 122x, which is fine, but the money you'd seemingly happily spend on mains leads you don't need could actually be put towards something that would make a real difference. 

if i buy a 122x what to do with 112?

who's going to buy it as it's very old?

i won't get anything  for nac112???

if it were me, i'd get a s/h Hicap to power the preamp, which in turn will improve the power supplied to the Stageline. also, as Nigel says, if you can upgrade the preamp for relatively little dough, then that's a much better option than faffing about with cables. also also, if there's power filtering/surge protection/what-have-you on the mains block you're using, the standard advice on here is to remove it and plug your equipment directly into the wall sockets. also also also, what cartridge are you using with your record player? do you listen mostly to CDs or to vinyl?

joe9407 posted:

if it were me, i'd get a s/h Hicap to power the preamp, which in turn will improve the power supplied to the Stageline. also, as Nigel says, if you can upgrade the preamp for relatively little dough, then that's a much better option than faffing about with cables. also also, if there's power filtering/surge protection/what-have-you on the mains block you're using, the standard advice on here is to remove it and plug your equipment directly into the wall sockets. also also also, what cartridge are you using with your record player? do you listen mostly to CDs or to vinyl?

I still use the factory supplied ProJect 1.2 cartridge, I still haven't had it replaced after maybe 13 - 14 years.

I haven't used the record player very much over the years.

I recently had the drive belt replaced to a new ProJect belt and lubricated centre hole  with ProJect's own LubeIt  oil which holds the centre plate in place with metal rod tap.

Most of the times I listen to cd's, i'ts not that very often I listen to vinyl.

 

I have the custom order Supra mains block  with 6x sockets.

MD06 has surge protection against lightning and NIF = non intrusive filtering on sockets 3 - 6

Here is the swedish link from manufacturer MD06-EU/SP MK3.

http://www.jenving.com/product...eu-sp-mk3-3024000030

 

my custom order mains block has socket 1 and 2 custom made as NON filtered which is mainly used for amplifier and my future purchase of a Naim PSU.

sockets 3-6 are (NIF) non intrusive filtered, I have connected my  dvd player, 2x vhs players,  vinyl record player and my Naim CD5.

The text below is a copy and paste from manufacturers site.

" The mains block may optionally be custom taylored. Standard, the blocks are configured with one (1) unfiltered socket (the first from mains in connector) and the remaining with NIF-filter for the models MD02-EU mkIII up to MD06-EU Switch mkIII. The longer mains blocks, MD08-EU and up, offer as standard the two (2) first unfiltered and remaining NIF-filtering."

thanks

NickSeattle posted:

I bought a 112 in 2011 from my Naim dealer.  A year later, he graciously gave me 80% of what I paid when I traded up.

Nothing wrong with a 112 -- still desirable and marketable.  I used a FC2X with mine.  I kept the FC2X and now use it with a HeadLine.

Nick

in my country HiFi shops lowballs their customers when they trade in HiFi gear.

they are not very generous on value for used stuff.

I bet there are special trade ins offered by Naim dealers in UK?

Unfortunately we don't have these generous special trade in's for Naim in my country

kowalski posted:
The Strat (Fender) posted:

I would always seek the advice of a Naim dealer when using 3rd party wires.  Chord are universally recognised for being compatible with Naim and some of the guys do really well with Tellaqurium. I know guys who swear by Supra with other gear but I'd take advice. 

Welcome to the Forum. 

Regards,

Lindsay

thanx for your warm welcome

my buddy who's the no.1 geek for hifi used to have a chord hifi many years ago.

i asked him recently about chord company cables if they are the one and same company for chord electronics?

they are not he replied, they are 2 different companies

I was thinking of getting a better mains lead from chord company.

my buddy told me i was buying snake oil if i wasted hundreds of pounds on a chord cable!

it got me confused about chord so i didn't buy any cable from this company.

so i stick with my supra lorad cables.

don't know what is good or bad mains lead for naim???

Okay if you're mate says Chord stuff is snake oil and you agree with him then okay.  Of course with any cable change the crucial thing is whether it's an improvement and as HH says you get a fit for purpose lead with Naim equipment as standard. 

Regards,

Lindsay

The Strat (Fender) posted:
kowalski posted:
The Strat (Fender) posted:

I would always seek the advice of a Naim dealer when using 3rd party wires.  Chord are universally recognised for being compatible with Naim and some of the guys do really well with Tellaqurium. I know guys who swear by Supra with other gear but I'd take advice. 

Welcome to the Forum. 

Regards,

Lindsay

thanx for your warm welcome

my buddy who's the no.1 geek for hifi used to have a chord hifi many years ago.

i asked him recently about chord company cables if they are the one and same company for chord electronics?

they are not he replied, they are 2 different companies

I was thinking of getting a better mains lead from chord company.

my buddy told me i was buying snake oil if i wasted hundreds of pounds on a chord cable!

it got me confused about chord so i didn't buy any cable from this company.

so i stick with my supra lorad cables.

don't know what is good or bad mains lead for naim???

Okay if you're mate says Chord stuff is snake oil and you agree with him then okay.  Of course with any cable change the crucial thing is whether it's an improvement and as HH says you get a fit for purpose lead with Naim equipment as standard. 

Regards,

Lindsay

my buddy is very know-how when it comes to hifi.

he has his own hifi shop,  i think i should trust him when he tells me what's good and what's not good.

my buddy doesn't sell supra or carry supra in his shop so he is not affiliated to supra cables.

after what he told me about Chord cables not to waste money on them, i don't want to fork out several hundred pounds on a cable just for lab testing if i get the sound improved or not?

maybe supra isn't the proper and  fun cable to use as mains lead for Naim, I don't know???

 

The Strat (Fender) posted:

I'm sure Supra would be okay providing the fuse rating was correct - Richard apologies if I need to be moderated  - but the question is would it be an improvement.  And on that point there's only one way to find out.  Home demo essential. 

Regards,

Lindsay

fuse rating is this on Supra cable.

plug with 10A fuse -------> 16A fuse schuko plug

plug with 10A fuse goes from Naim source like cd-player or NAP150 amp ---------------> Schuko plug 16A fuse which plugs into wall socket.

Supra also have a 16A plug, this plug don't fit Naim coz corners are not shaved like the 10A plug.

 

Chord make very good cables that usually go very well with Naim electronics and I speak from experience. Having said this it would be a waste of money to buy one of their expensive power leads for your system as the stock cable would be fine IMHO. So I suspect the 'snake oil' your mate talks of is more to do with the use of expensive power leads in lower cost systems rather than Chord cables per se. In fact I use Supra LoRad power leads and they are a good low(er) cost option.

Two weeks ago I spoke with a Naim seller.

He has a FlatCap XS for sale.

I told him that I use Supra LoRad mains cables and Supra mains block coz I get them cheap.

Naim seller told me to get rid of that Supra crap and go for Naim mains lead or Chord cables nothing else!!

I told him, I buy my Supra stuff cheap and they are very good for reducing RFI and EMI coz they are shielded.

Sellers reply was, Supra isn't a bad cable but is not any fun listening to music, coz Supra kills most of the details in music??

Sound getting mushed or blurry when using Supra mains lead and mains block.

How can a mains lead kill details in music making it sound mushed or blurry?

 

Please tell me what should I look for to buy for my HiFi?

The 1st generation of FlatCap-2 or the 2nd generation FlatCap-2x or the 3rd generation FlatCap XS?

Which one of the 3 units is the best for my HiFi?

 

weird thing is that I have to send my units to the importer of Naim products and they will send my units to Naim factory in the UK for re-cap and other bits.

there's no full service repair shop for Naim in my country, this is really disturbing for me as it will cost an arm and a leg to get them into full perfection like new

Do you still have the stock Naim power leads. If yes I would suggest that you replace the Supra Lorad with the Naim power cables. I have the Lorad and every time I compared them with other power cords the Lorad either went to the least important component such as the Napsc or it got out of the system. Although the differences between power cords can be quite marginal, I find the Lorad to soften the dynamics, sparkle and leading edge in music. 

kowalski posted:

weird thing is that I have to send my units to the importer of Naim products and they will send my units to Naim factory in the UK for re-cap and other bits.

there's no full service repair shop for Naim in my country, this is really disturbing for me as it will cost an arm and a leg to get them into full perfection like new

They will be returned as good as new, possibly sounding better than when they were actually new given the expertise gained in the elapsed time since manufacture. The price will be high. But nowhere as high as if you bought a CDX2.2 and NAC202/ NAP200 for a meaningful upgrade.

C.

When I went to Supra LoRads (I also use stock power leads and a Powerline) it was in a quest to reduce noise and interference in my system. I didn't notice any softening when the LoRads were introduced. I do agree that a mains block (particularly if it has any filtering/conditioning on board) can adversely impact SQ, but I did not find this with the LoRad mains cables.

Anyway, I digress, the OP needs to focus on his pre amp and power supply. Others on here are better placed to advise here as, although I have used a flatcap (olive era) in the past, I do not have experience with the 112 or 122x NACs. As you have no Naim service facility in your country, I would try to get newer models or a flatcap that has been recapped. Yes you will pay a little more but it will be worth it in the end.

ryder. posted:

Do you still have the stock Naim power leads. If yes I would suggest that you replace the Supra Lorad with the Naim power cables. I have the Lorad and every time I compared them with other power cords the Lorad either went to the least important component such as the Napsc or it got out of the system. Although the differences between power cords can be quite marginal, I find the Lorad to soften the dynamics, sparkle and leading edge in music. 

yes i still have my naim leads however i have several black color mains leads from different companies.

i have them all mixed up in  a box.

do you know what chinese brand is the mains lead for naim?

i can do some comparing tests between cables to see which one is more suitable and sounds better?

 

do I understand you correct, do LoRad put like a filter screen on dynamics softening the clarity on sound making it sound dull and depressing?

thanks for your help

nigelb posted:

When I went to Supra LoRads (I also use stock power leads and a Powerline) it was in a quest to reduce noise and interference in my system. I didn't notice any softening when the LoRads were introduced. I do agree that a mains block (particularly if it has any filtering/conditioning on board) can adversely impact SQ, but I did not find this with the LoRad mains cables.

Anyway, I digress, the OP needs to focus on his pre amp and power supply. Others on here are better placed to advise here as, although I have used a flatcap (olive era) in the past, I do not have experience with the 112 or 122x NACs. As you have no Naim service facility in your country, I would try to get newer models or a flatcap that has been recapped. Yes you will pay a little more but it will be worth it in the end.

I was told it will cost approx £450 - 500 to service one of my units shipped to Naim in UK.

total price will be humungus for all units!

I could buy a very near mint condition unit for 500 pounds.

it's a steep service cost playing with expensive hifi!!

Amazing thread, never once is it mentioned how the current system sounds and what needs improvement. 

And budget, what is your budget?

if you want to buy a flatcap the flatcap 2 is the one to go for and it shound  give a nice lift to 112 and CD5. However it won't change the sound drastically, just refine it. 

IMHO your system isn't worth servicing unless you have someone local who can do it at a better price. Servicing will cost more than your units are worth. 

My advice is to ask on Pink Fish as there are plenty of third party routes you could take which naturally are best not discussed on the Naim forum. They also have a vibrant classifieds section. 

SJB. 

Sloop John B posted:

Amazing thread, never once is it mentioned how the current system sounds and what needs improvement. 

And budget, what is your budget?

if you want to buy a flatcap the flatcap 2 is the one to go for and it shound  give a nice lift to 112 and CD5. However it won't change the sound drastically, just refine it. 

IMHO your system isn't worth servicing unless you have someone local who can do it at a better price. Servicing will cost more than your units are worth. 

My advice is to ask on Pink Fish as there are plenty of third party routes you could take which naturally are best not discussed on the Naim forum. They also have a vibrant classifieds section. 

SJB. 

It's cool you like Phil Lynott, he was great. RIP Mr. Phil Lynott.

The sound of my system is not that great anymore. Maybe it's because of the age of the system needing re-cap or maybe that I have used Supra Lorad mains lead and their mains block degrading my sound?

Or

Maybe it's Naim sound got lost coz I shut down my HiFi permanently for 5-6 years from 2009 to 2015 coz I bought a computer getting internet at home. Then I was only streaming music from internet radio channels, becoz of this I didn't want to have my HiFi running on idle wasting electricity, electric bills are not cheap!!

Maybe because that I have shut down my HiFi, capacitors got damaged or got old and lazy not sounding very well anymore????????????? I do use my HiFi more frequently now, it has been on for approximately a year, it takes time from hibernating to warm up to sound perfect.

Honestly I don't know why I don't get the famous Naim sound anymore? Sound isn't very dynamic when I play my best cd's, sound is a bit depressed and dull.

I have a budget to buy a used FlatCap2 or the 2x model. Just need to find one.

Thanks

 

 

kowalski posted:
Sloop John B posted:
 

Honestly I don't know why I don't get the famous Naim sound anymore? Sound isn't very dynamic when I play my best cd's, sound is a bit depressed and dull.

I have a budget to buy a used FlatCap2 or the 2x model. Just need to find one.

Thanks

 

 

If you read my post that is exactly what I am saying about my stuff, lack of imagery etc etc. difference is mine has been in use pretty much daily and I never turn it off. In addition CD5 had a full service last year by Witch Hat so I am hoping someone will have experienced this before and have some suggestions/ideas as to the problem

Chris

   

Lar posted:
kowalski posted:
Sloop John B posted:
 

Honestly I don't know why I don't get the famous Naim sound anymore? Sound isn't very dynamic when I play my best cd's, sound is a bit depressed and dull.

I have a budget to buy a used FlatCap2 or the 2x model. Just need to find one.

Thanks

 

 

If you read my post that is exactly what I am saying about my stuff, lack of imagery etc etc. difference is mine has been in use pretty much daily and I never turn it off. In addition CD5 had a full service last year by Witch Hat so I am hoping someone will have experienced this before and have some suggestions/ideas as to the problem

Chris

   

Previously when I turned off my HiFi it was only when lightning striked or if I go on vacation for a long time. The other long time permanent shut off lasted for approx 6 years when I bought myself a computer to have internet at home back in 2009. Other than that I never shut off my Naim it was ON as I used to listen to cd's very often in the past.

 

 

kowalski posted:
Sloop John B posted:

Amazing thread, never once is it mentioned how the current system sounds and what needs improvement. 

And budget, what is your budget?

if you want to buy a flatcap the flatcap 2 is the one to go for and it shound  give a nice lift to 112 and CD5. However it won't change the sound drastically, just refine it. 

IMHO your system isn't worth servicing unless you have someone local who can do it at a better price. Servicing will cost more than your units are worth. 

My advice is to ask on Pink Fish as there are plenty of third party routes you could take which naturally are best not discussed on the Naim forum. They also have a vibrant classifieds section. 

SJB. 

It's cool you like Phil Lynott, he was great. RIP Mr. Phil Lynott.

The sound of my system is not that great anymore. Maybe it's because of the age of the system needing re-cap or maybe that I have used Supra Lorad mains lead and their mains block degrading my sound?

Or

Maybe it's Naim sound got lost coz I shut down my HiFi permanently for 5-6 years from 2009 to 2015 coz I bought a computer getting internet at home. Then I was only streaming music from internet radio channels, becoz of this I didn't want to have my HiFi running on idle wasting electricity, electric bills are not cheap!!

Maybe because that I have shut down my HiFi, capacitors got damaged or got old and lazy not sounding very well anymore????????????? I do use my HiFi more frequently now, it has been on for approximately a year, it takes time from hibernating to warm up to sound perfect.

Honestly I don't know why I don't get the famous Naim sound anymore? Sound isn't very dynamic when I play my best cd's, sound is a bit depressed and dull.

I have a budget to buy a used FlatCap2 or the 2x model. Just need to find one.

Thanks

 

 

If your system sounds that bad a flatcap will not sort out the problem. 

Perhaps borrow an integrated amplifier from this friend of yours with a shop and see what your CD5 sounds like then. 

If something is radically underperforming a better power supply will not help. 

SJB

maybe my ears got used to crappy Mp3 internet radio channels therefore I maybe have lost my magic hearing?

I have been listening to german radio station Munichs hardest hits for many years, they play 80's heavy metal and AOR music.

This is one helluva radio station if you like AOR.

 

Did anyone test reducing interference by using ferrite cores clamped on mains leads and interconnects to reduce RFI and EMI? I tried ferrite cores clamped on my interconnect cables, Naim sound became even more dull and dark with clamped ferrite cores. I had to remove them. It sounded better without ferrite cores. Cores work from 30MHz - 600MHz.

Lesson learned ferrite cores degrades audio quality

Sloop John B posted:

Amazing thread, never once is it mentioned how the current system sounds and what needs improvement. 

And budget, what is your budget?

if you want to buy a flatcap the flatcap 2 is the one to go for and it shound  give a nice lift to 112 and CD5. However it won't change the sound drastically, just refine it. 

IMHO your system isn't worth servicing unless you have someone local who can do it at a better price. Servicing will cost more than your units are worth. 

My advice is to ask on Pink Fish as there are plenty of third party routes you could take which naturally are best not discussed on the Naim forum. They also have a vibrant classifieds section. 

SJB. 

I registered on Pink Fish Media yesterday.

I'm still waiting to receive my confirmation email to activate my account on PFM, still nothing, no email in spam basket no nothing!

I tried to contact Administrator Tony L, there is no information available how to contact this person.

I browsed PFM FAQ's and there is no contact info anywhere

Why is it so difficult to activate my registered account on PFM? This is really disturbing for me.

Sloop John B, can you please help me out getting in touch with Tony L?

I have seen you are a registered member on PFM.

Thanks for your help

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