Vinyl - back to the future?

Drikus posted:
French Rooster posted:

my favorite in this price range:   rega p9 second hand. 

Great TT but still around £1700 second hand. Considering it's age, isn't there something new and better for this price?

the rp10 is a bit better, but much more expensive.  the differences are not night and day.

Olly posted:

The thing about nostalgia is it takes you back. 

My advice is to go forward. 

Olly

have a look on the best high end hifi shows nowadays, like Apoxona, CES las Vegas, Munich High End....hundreds of turntables to be seen, with also dacs, servers, streamers of course.

Some decks cost 200k, some phono stage 50k and more, and lots of cartridges more than 10k:  i don’t call it nostalgia !

🔵 Yetizone,.....if you maybe go for an LP12 with a Lingo1, you shall do this.It's a big difference to the better without the mains filter. The same also if you have the player in another system,....not only Naim-system

🔸 It is also recommended that if you have a Valhalla or Lingo 1 power supply fitted that these are overhauled every 10 years. As these are now no longer available it is definitely wise to have them checked out. We can also check and carry out upgrades and factory modifications to this board if required.
A service and re-build will also cure around 90% of faulty items
 

 Non UK shipping also available at cost price.
 
We now have stock of the Lingo 1 mains inlet without the filter.
◾ This will cure the problem of interference and sound degradation when used with Naim equipment◾ 
This can be fitted as part of a service🔸

This information is from Darren (ClassA).

We have recapp't a lot of Lingo1 at ClassA, Darren has also take away the mains-filter. In some ways a Lingo1 recappt,without a mains-filter is better in musicality than a Radikal power supply.

The Radikal is cleaner and clearer,but the Lingo1 recappt without a mains-filter is more fun to listen to.....think musicality.We did this test at a Linn-dealers store,and we all agree in this.....also the Linn-dealer.

/Peder🙂 

Peder posted:

🔵 Yetizone,.....if you maybe go for an LP12 with a Lingo1, you shall do this.It's a big difference to the better without the mains filter. The same also if you have the player in another system,....not only Naim-system

🔸 It is also recommended that if you have a Valhalla or Lingo 1 power supply fitted that these are overhauled every 10 years. As these are now no longer available it is definitely wise to have them checked out. We can also check and carry out upgrades and factory modifications to this board if required.
A service and re-build will also cure around 90% of faulty items
 

 Non UK shipping also available at cost price.
 
We now have stock of the Lingo 1 mains inlet without the filter.
◾ This will cure the problem of interference and sound degradation when used with Naim equipment◾ 
This can be fitted as part of a service🔸

This information is from Darren (ClassA).

We have recapp't a lot of Lingo1 at ClassA, Darren has also take away the mains-filter. In some ways a Lingo1 recappt,without a mains-filter is better in musicality than a Radikal power supply.

The Radikal is cleaner and clearer,but the Lingo1 recappt without a mains-filter is more fun to listen to.....think musicality.We did this test at a Linn-dealers store,and we all agree in this.....also the Linn-dealer.

/Peder🙂 

JoexNaim posted:

Technics new decks. Pitch perfect sound that belt drives can only dream of getting close to. I’ve had Rega and Linn and find Technics to be a joy by comparison. Last deck I’ll ever buy and I’m pretty sure it will out live me!

Which new one do you have, the G, GR, 10R or 1000R?

Joeexnaim - Would be helpful if you could please expand on the Technics deck you bought. Also, if you compared it directly to the LP12 you had at the time? 

Has anyone had a demo or ownership experience of the mid to higher end Pro-Ject decks? There was an interesting review of the ProJect Xtension 10 Evolution from one of their (bewildering it has to be said) "Classic" range on the Hi-Fi+ website. Its certainly a striking looking deck and there's a dealer roughly an hours drive away.

 

JoexNaim posted:

Technics new decks. Pitch perfect sound that belt drives can only dream of getting close to. I’ve had Rega and Linn and find Technics to be a joy by comparison. Last deck I’ll ever buy and I’m pretty sure it will out live me!

IIRC, When direct drive TTs, led by Technics, were top of the hifi league table in the hifi press just about the time the Sondeck’s merits were recognised, one issue was that they could be perfect speed, but with jitter making it not a perfectly steady speed, something from which belt drive TTs with perfectly balanced heavy platters and well machined single ball bearings (e.g. Thorens TD150, Linn LP12) never suffered. Maybe they have that mastered now.

 

JoexNaim posted:

Technics new decks. Pitch perfect sound that belt drives can only dream of getting close to. I’ve had Rega and Linn and find Technics to be a joy by comparison. Last deck I’ll ever buy and I’m pretty sure it will out live me!

Joe,

Thought I would chip in as I run both decks a Sl 1210 with standard arm with a  Linn K9 and a LP 12 - Ittok - Decca London Supergold cartridge.Enjoy both decks but the Technics has been so fuss free and 25 years old still going strong.The LP 12 has been back to the dealers 3 times over the same time period and cost more in services then I payed for the Technics.

Agree about the pitch stability with the Technics to my ears it's better than my LP 12.Could throw loads of money on the Linn but it's a bottomless pit and would rather buy more music.

i had an sme 20/2 turntable for more than 17 years without any servicing: just some oil drop in the motor and changed the pulley and o-rings.  It will run the same time and more with the new owner now.    I really think that the lp12 is overpriced for what it is.  It is certainly musical but not enough well built for the price asked.

KRM posted:

You can see DR values DR Database website. Sadly, over-compression hasn’t gone away and isn’t confirmed to pop

Hmmmm, been looking at said DR Database. Majority of albums I looked up where there were data for both vinyl and CD, mainly rock albums, had very similar DR figures for both, typically around 12-15 - perhaps unsurprising as I think most of the CDs were made from music originally released on vinyl. The few classical albums I managed to find (there is precious little in database) showed CD mainly 15-20, and I haven't found any classical on vinyl yet to compare (but clearly unlikely to beat CD). I do have some ripped vinyl that I will measure once I work out how to do it, and will also so some CDs and hi res, but as it stands at present I see no evidence that CD has less dynamic range.

Meanwhile, looking at the database sorted by recordings with highest max DR, in the first couple of pages there are significantly more CD or download than vinyl recordings, while sorted by worst first, yes mostly CD and downloads, though  the names tend to make me wonder if they are actually music....

The semi-pro journal Sound on Sound published an interesting article about the DR claims.

 

Drikus - my budget is flexible. See below.

French Rooster - I like the idea if the Sondek but what concerns me is the expense from the off, and the money pit potential of endless upgrade temptation. An SME would be a lovely idea, but even the entry Model 10 is something like 4.3K RRP without an arm / cartridge. Unless I could find a used one…

TabbyCat - interesting observations about maintenance costs of the two decks over time. I only had an LP12 for a couple of years, so never had that expense. 

 

After a little more thought over the weekend I’ve settled on a plan - Initially to buy a well maintained used Planar 3 or a Pro-Ject Debut of some sort. Something that will only need a new cartridge or stylus and is easy to set up. I’ll then be able to confirm if my old discs are in good order, and when / If sold, I won’t lose that much. 

If I go all in to the point of expanding the record collection, then in a few months I’ll increase the budget to accommodate a new RP8, possibly an RP10 if the performance gains are worthwhile (and I can save the extra). I’ll also investigate some of the other brands recommended - Avid Ingenium & Diva, Michell Gyro, Original Live, Pro-Ject Xtension 10etc. But this will mean some travelling - and patience!

Yetizone posted:

Drikus - my budget is flexible. See below.

French Rooster - I like the idea if the Sondek but what concerns me is the expense from the off, and the money pit potential of endless upgrade temptation. An SME would be a lovely idea, but even the entry Model 10 is something like 4.3K RRP without an arm / cartridge. Unless I could find a used one…

TabbyCat - interesting observations about maintenance costs of the two decks over time. I only had an LP12 for a couple of years, so never had that expense. 

 

After a little more thought over the weekend I’ve settled on a plan - Initially to buy a well maintained used Planar 3 or a Pro-Ject Debut of some sort. Something that will only need a new cartridge or stylus and is easy to set up. I’ll then be able to confirm if my old discs are in good order, and when / If sold, I won’t lose that much. 

If I go all in to the point of expanding the record collection, then in a few months I’ll increase the budget to accommodate a new RP8, possibly an RP10 if the performance gains are worthwhile (and I can save the extra). I’ll also investigate some of the other brands recommended - Avid Ingenium & Diva, Michell Gyro, Original Live, Pro-Ject Xtension 10etc. But this will mean some travelling - and patience!

the sme 20 was just an example....there are a lot of turntables with no real maintenance like rega, avid, michell ...you were referring.

Personally, with a 2k max budget, i would go for second hand rega p9, difficult to beat at this cost.  Or second hand kuzma reference, but more difficult to find.

Innocent Bystander posted:
KRM posted:

You can see DR values DR Database website. Sadly, over-compression hasn’t gone away and isn’t confirmed to pop

Hmmmm, been looking at said DR Database. Majority of albums I looked up where there were data for both vinyl and CD, mainly rock albums, had very similar DR figures for both, typically around 12-15 - perhaps unsurprising as I think most of the CDs were made from music originally released on vinyl. The few classical albums I managed to find (there is precious little in database) showed CD mainly 15-20, and I haven't found any classical on vinyl yet to compare (but clearly unlikely to beat CD). I do have some ripped vinyl that I will measure once I work out how to do it, and will also so some CDs and hi res, but as it stands at present I see no evidence that CD has less dynamic range.

Meanwhile, looking at the database sorted by recordings with highest max DR, in the first couple of pages there are significantly more CD or download than vinyl recordings, while sorted by worst first, yes mostly CD and downloads, though  the names tend to make me wonder if they are actually music....

The semi-pro journal Sound on Sound published an interesting article about the DR claims.

 

A Moon Shaped Pool DR is 5 on CD and 10 on vinyl.

Deadwing DR is 6 on CD and 13 on vinyl.

Blackstar DR is 5 on CD and 10 on vinyl.

Not all dynamically compressed files sound bad and not all CDs are affected. Also, a high DR is not a guarantee of great sound. 

The above three examples all sound a lot better on vinyl.

Steely Dan’s Aja is superb on CD and has a high DR on CD and vinyl.

if you listen mainly to classical and jazz you will probably not need to worry too much.

KRM posted:
Innocent Bystander posted:
KRM posted:

You can see DR values DR Database website. Sadly, over-compression hasn’t gone away and isn’t confirmed to pop

Hmmmm, been looking at said DR Database. Majority of albums I looked up where there were data for both vinyl and CD, mainly rock albums, had very similar DR figures for both, typically around 12-15 - perhaps unsurprising as I think most of the CDs were made from music originally released on vinyl. The few classical albums I managed to find (there is precious little in database) showed CD mainly 15-20, and I haven't found any classical on vinyl yet to compare (but clearly unlikely to beat CD). I do have some ripped vinyl that I will measure once I work out how to do it, and will also so some CDs and hi res, but as it stands at present I see no evidence that CD has less dynamic range.

Meanwhile, looking at the database sorted by recordings with highest max DR, in the first couple of pages there are significantly more CD or download than vinyl recordings, while sorted by worst first, yes mostly CD and downloads, though  the names tend to make me wonder if they are actually music....

The semi-pro journal Sound on Sound published an interesting article about the DR claims.

 

A Moon Shaped Pool DR is 5 on CD and 10 on vinyl.

Deadwing DR is 6 on CD and 13 on vinyl.

Blackstar DR is 5 on CD and 10 on vinyl.

Not all dynamically compressed files sound bad and not all CDs are affected. Also, a high DR is not a guarantee of great sound. 

The above three examples all sound a lot better on vinyl.

Steely Dan’s Aja is superb on CD and has a high DR on CD and vinyl.

if you listen mainly to classical and jazz you will probably not need to worry too much.

Whilst I cannot deny individual experiences you may have of the sound of inddividual recordings on vinyl vs CD, it does seem to me that there is something very flawed with the DR database. The SoS article goes into it quite a bit, but I thought I’d have a go myself. So I downloaded the plug-in for Foobar, which I understand is the tool many contributors use to asses recordings, and picked something I know to have an extremely wide dynamic range: the Telarc SACD version of Tchaikovsky’s 1812. This disk has the cannons at something like a realistic sound level relative to the orchestra, and with 500w on tap enabling peaks of at least 110dB at my listening position before clipping, I have to play the orchestra at an unnaturally low average level on busy passages of only around 80dB, quiet passages almost inaudible, to avoid the cannon shots clipping.

The DR tool gave a dynamic range of just 10! Whilst it might be a measure of some use for comparison of pop music for which it seems to have been intended - the stuff turned out on radio chart stations, It is patently not measuring what most of us regard as dynamic range, and maybe isn’t suited at all to classical music, or similar varying music like prog rock. 

 

Innocent Bystander posted:
KRM posted:
Innocent Bystander posted:
KRM posted:

Whilst I cannot deny individual experiences you may have of the sound of inddividual recordings on vinyl vs CD, it does seem to me that there is something very flawed with the DR database. The SoS article goes into it quite a bit, but I thought I’d have a go myself. So I downloaded the plug-in for Foobar, which I understand is the tool many contributors use to asses recordings, and picked something I know to have an extremely wide dynamic range: the Telarc SACD version of Tchaikovsky’s 1812. This disk has the cannons at something like a realistic sound level relative to the orchestra, and with 500w on tap enabling peaks of at least 110dB at my listening position before clipping, I have to play the orchestra at an unnaturally low average level on busy passages of only around 80dB, quiet passages almost inaudible, to avoid the cannon shots clipping.

Try a Naim amp, IB! :-)

Ardbeg10y posted:
Innocent Bystander posted:
KRM posted:
Innocent Bystander posted:
KRM posted:

Whilst I cannot deny individual experiences you may have of the sound of inddividual recordings on vinyl vs CD, it does seem to me that there is something very flawed with the DR database. The SoS article goes into it quite a bit, but I thought I’d have a go myself. So I downloaded the plug-in for Foobar, which I understand is the tool many contributors use to asses recordings, and picked something I know to have an extremely wide dynamic range: the Telarc SACD version of Tchaikovsky’s 1812. This disk has the cannons at something like a realistic sound level relative to the orchestra, and with 500w on tap enabling peaks of at least 110dB at my listening position before clipping, I have to play the orchestra at an unnaturally low average level on busy passages of only around 80dB, quiet passages almost inaudible, to avoid the cannon shots clipping.

Try a Naim amp, IB! :

It is something I’d be interested in hearing some time because the approach to power amp design is interesting but would have to be a 500 to possibly allow use of a higher orchestral sound level without the cannons causing clipping  (if indeed the speakers can cope), so not sure how you think it would make any difference in this context?  

Hi Innocent,

I don't think it's as simple as measuring the difference between the loudest and quietest moment in a recording. If it that were the case, very loud tracks with silent moments would be reported as highly dynamic even if they were dynamically compressed. Hopefully, someone here has a better explanation.

The Telmarc 1812 recording seems come out at DR 18 according the to others. That's pretty high. There are some entertaining Youtube videos of the vinyl version playing. You can hear that the cannons are insane even on my iPad :-)

Just a quick update.. 

A secondhand Rega RP6 / RB303 / Ortofon 2M Black, plus a Fono2 MM are winging their way to me. At last I’ll soon be able to test my vinyl collection. 

As it was sourced secondhand I can easily sell it on with little loss if my own little vinyl revival fails to engage, or even If I want to fully commit to the format again and perhaps then buy an LP12 or a Rega RP10. The important step is to see if I actually enjoy playing records again - its that simple. Its going to be an interesting few months!

I’ll need to order a phono - phono lead to connect the Rega Fono2 RCA out to the UnitiQute2 RCA Analogue Input. What interconnects are you folks using between phono stage and pre-amp and what do you recommend? First thoughts are to keep the Rega synergy and opt for the Rega Couple2?

Would a Couple2 be the best choice, or are there better suited alternatives?

I use a Rega Couple between Rega phono amp and my Nova - does  the job nicely and as a bonus it's nice and flexible which helps with the cable dressing.

(As an added bonus I got it "free" when subscribing to Stuff magaine at the Indulgence  show - so I paid £20 for a year of Stuff which goes straight in the recycle bin and got a £100 cable.  Bargain !!

Check out Stuff and What Hifi for subscriptions - the Rega cable is often the "gift" for taking out the sub and is by far the cheapest way of getting it).

Not sure if that's a breach of Forum rules: I'm sure Richard will moderate it if it is. I don't think it counts as an ad,  it's intended as potential money saving advise. 

Thanks for input folks.

Richard Dane: My first thought was the Couple2, but wondered if there was something out there better for the task.

The Strat (Fender): I did think of Chord as I have both Cobra DIN to DIN and also an RCA to 4pin DIN. Will check out the cost of a Cobra RCA to RCA.

Tallguy: Thanks for tip off. That would be the ideal scenario, but cannot find a similar offer currently. 

The Bigfredc: If the Rega Couple2 can easily be bettered, then examples would be great please!

Drikus posted:
JoexNaim posted:

Technics new decks. Pitch perfect sound that belt drives can only dream of getting close to. I’ve had Rega and Linn and find Technics to be a joy by comparison. Last deck I’ll ever buy and I’m pretty sure it will out live me!

Which new one do you have, the G, GR, 10R or 1000R?

Sorry Drikus, been away; SL1200G. Absolute dream......if anyone was on a £1k budget I’d recommend the 1200GR as I heard one and it’s still astounding, at near to a third of the price of the G.

Tabby cat posted:
JoexNaim posted:

Technics new decks. Pitch perfect sound that belt drives can only dream of getting close to. I’ve had Rega and Linn and find Technics to be a joy by comparison. Last deck I’ll ever buy and I’m pretty sure it will out live me!

Joe,

Thought I would chip in as I run both decks a Sl 1210 with standard arm with a  Linn K9 and a LP 12 - Ittok - Decca London Supergold cartridge.Enjoy both decks but the Technics has been so fuss free and 25 years old still going strong.The LP 12 has been back to the dealers 3 times over the same time period and cost more in services then I payed for the Technics.

Agree about the pitch stability with the Technics to my ears it's better than my LP 12.Could throw loads of money on the Linn but it's a bottomless pit and would rather buy more music.

2 Regas I had both played fast, even with the speed controller.

My LP12 was never consistent: On a good day, sublime and on a bad day, clearly audible pitch inaccuracy. Mind you I never had a good service expert in my locale and that didn’t help. Probably never got to hear it at its best in 4 years of ownership.

I now have a Rega RP6 / RB303 / Ortofon 2M Black / Rega Fono MM playing into my Unitiqute 2. Sounding pretty good, but not earth shakingly look good, which is a slight disappointment in some ways, although its very early days and the deck is still in the process of being set up properly. 

Nait 2 connection issue - I’m having to leave my the Nait out of the equation for the minute, as the Rega RCA phono plugs do not push far in enough into the Nait2 phono sockets to make a connection, feeling very loose. Even when unscrewing the RCA barrels, the plugs still do not push home, the connection breaks in and out of music / harsh static, so I’m slightly concerned about amp / speaker damage.

Any ideas as to the best course of action to allow my Nait to join the turntable party? RCA adaptors of some sort? I’m handy with a soldering iron if I need new connectors, but ideally would rather leave the stock Rega plugs intact.

Any help very welcome on the Nait2 / RP6 issue!

Those locking Rega RCA plugs are nice but yes, I can see how they might not fit recessed RCA phono sockets such as those on the NAIT and NAIT2.  I would get the armlead re-terminated with more suitable RCA plugs such as the Neutrik Profi (IIRC these were used by Rega at some point - check they will fit though), Switchcraft or Deltron ones.  Keep the original plugs in case you need to have them put back on.

Of course, if you were to use a low output MC then you could use a set of Ortofon T5/Sony T10 transformers into the NAIT's RCA phono sockets, which would allow you to neatly sidestep the issue...

Thanks Richard - very helpful.

Ah, that’s interesting. I never knew there was such a thing as a step up transformer for adapting MC cartridges to a Nait2 MM phono stage? That does open up possibilities a bit. But how far up the MC cart ladder to climb with an RP6 I wonder - a Rega Ania perhaps?

The fact that the RP6 direct wired phono leads cannot easily be changed is rather frustrating, but assuming its designed to keep as pure a signal path a possible. Is this the same scenario with the high end RP8 / RP10?

 

EDIT: Re RP8 and RP10: Incidentally, I contacted quite a few dealers when searching for a secondhand deck and it was surprising how many RP8 & 10 ex demo models were available. I did wonder if replacement models are imminent?

The arm lead on the RB808 and the RB2000 is fixed, and I assume they all use the same locking RCA phono plugs.

The Ortofon T5/Sony T10s were often used back in the day to adapt an MC cart to the MM phono stage on the NAIT or NAIT2.  Naim also had the Linnk, which was an active MC step-up that they made for a well known Scottish hifi maker.

I have a pair of T5s in their box somewhere, but I've never tried them on any of my NAITs, so couldn't really say how good they are compared to a dedicated MC stage.  But it just occurred to me that it would allow your phono plugs to fit...

Ah, the same fixed leads as per the RB303 on my RP6 then.

Lots to ponder on here, so will take my time on this and have a think. I really did wonder if the idea of a MC cartridge would be overkill on the RP6, but this new idea has got me wondering about the befits of a MC over the fitted MM Ortofon 2M Black?

Never heard of the Naim Linnk - will do a little research.

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