Which way to go when the cash rolls in? 272 or HDX/NDX.

If you're moving to a new house, you'll be using a new network in a different environment, which might solve your UPnP sound quality problem. If you take your NAS to your dealer and listen to it there, you'll be able to tell if the problem lies there, so you should be well on the way to pinpointing the issue. 

I also use a 272 (+ non-Naim power supply) with a DR'ed 300, driving Spendor SP2s, and in my opinion it's an excellent combination.

In terms of getting the network working well, it's not all that difficult:
Put a simple network switch (e.g a Netgear GS105) between the NAS and the 272 and take a cable from this to your broadband router.
On all Ethernet cables and the SMPS for the switch, fit clip on ferrites (I found that Würth Elektronik 74271112 work best in my house, available form CPC Farnell)
Use unscreened cables for all Ethernet connections EXCEPT the streamer (I use Cat6 UTP)
Use a screened Ethernet cable from the switch to the streamer (I use a Chord C-Stream)

This sorts out the hardware.

Well, had my demo yesterday and found the SN as great as I remembered.

On top of that, the NDX was finer sounding than the 272, and so it should be given the price of both and the NDX being a stand alone unit v a pre and streamer combined.

To try and explain in a few words...272/250, more aggressive top end sounded a too much in your face.  The 250 was good though and had I the funds would consider 282 etc.

SN and NDX, a good pairing. Smoother than the above, everything sounded more natural and lesse digital sounding.  SN has bags of power bottom end too.

Working on the old belief of source 1st, I think the 272/250 is miss matched....all though I didn't bother adding the XPS to either set up.

Speakers for the demo were PMC twenty 5.23.  I went for a pair of those too, with super lumina 5pin to 5pin and 2 powerlines.

Oh and stuck in an Oppo 203 for later when I get round to 4k TV.

Looking forward to getting it all home. 

The main thing this story demonstrates (to me anyway) is that we often hear what we want to hear. The OP's original post says that he didn't think he'd be happy with the 272 system, so it's no surprise that the other was preferred. In many ways the demo was superfluous. 

I think sometimes when a new product emerges there is a momentum of euphoria - wow this is good.  The 272 and dare I say Chord Hugo both fell into that category.   Now I don't know the Hugo at all but the 272 I do and it ticks so many boxes - great open sound, excellent functionality, reduces box count etc - but for some in the cold light of day it's not the ultimate solution.  Similarly there are some who eulogize - guilty as charged in respect of the 282 - about a particular component and again of course it's not the ultimate solution.

Regards,

Lindsay

Hugo was not a moment of euphoria Lindsay, it was and still is a game changer in terms of enjoying music from a digital source.

For watching the news, enjoying movies or music, I use a Chord DAC daily.

Interesting about NDX/SN2 compared to 272/250DR, source first still wins, even with the mighty 250 DR power amp.

it kind of makes sense as 272 costs less than NDX.

After many years of experiments, I do agree with source first....

 

..... I know I will probably end up swapping 272 for a 282+NDX+250....and the upgrade bug will stay with me till the day I die. Seriously though, I could have stopped with SN2. I think it's enough of an animal to rock the house. Same power output as a 250 anyway I think. 

Anyone any experience with above set-ups or considered/done the same.  +/- thoughts?

Thanks,

Ray.

 

 

I have 282/HCDR/250DR, not thinking to spend any further cash for a 252 or a 552 at the moment. I spent lots of cash on Hifi anyway last 2 years, maybe that is the reason? No not really, the system plays very engaging music for me at the moment, that is the reason.

it depends on your source, once you got a good enough source, musical enjoyment starts and the upgrade bug goes away...

Something that just isn't mentioned enough on this forum. 

I'm not suggesting that one option is better than the other, merely that the OP bought what they wanted in the first place - as shown in Analog's quote above. What the demo revealed was perhaps immaterial. If one has a predilection for an outcome, it's very often what gets chosen, is it not. It's the same as a specific search image in animal foraging - one only sees what one is looking for. 

analogmusic posted:

Hugo was not a moment of euphoria Lindsay, it was and still is a game changer in terms of enjoying music from a digital source.

For watching the news, enjoying movies or music, I use a Chord DAC daily.

Interesting about NDX/SN2 compared to 272/250DR, source first still wins, even with the mighty 250 DR power amp.

it kind of makes sense as 272 costs less than NDX.

After many years of experiments, I do agree with source first....

 

I don't have any issue with how good it is - but given all th traffic there was on here and elsewhere euphoria there most definitely was

The Strat (Fender) posted:

I think sometimes when a new product emerges there is a momentum of euphoria - wow this is good.  The 272 and dare I say Chord Hugo both fell into that category.   Now I don't know the Hugo at all but the 272 I do and it ticks so many boxes - great open sound, excellent functionality, reduces box count etc - but for some in the cold light of day it's not the ultimate solution.  Similarly there are some who eulogize - guilty as charged in respect of the 282 - about a particular component and again of course it's not the ultimate solution.

Regards,

Lindsay

I guess then that the test is how well that euphoria lasts over months and years when the initial buzz of ownership wears off.  For me the thing Hugo did most was astonish me that I could afford that level of quality playback on the budget I had.  Even when I had to get the batteries replaced late last year there has never been a single second when I regretted or questioned my Hugo purchase and it still, everyday, amazes me at how good it is able to replay music.  I wish I could find more products that can make me feel as happy after owning them for many months or years.  I was a believer in source first, I am even more so now.

dayjay posted:
The Strat (Fender) posted:

I think sometimes when a new product emerges there is a momentum of euphoria - wow this is good.  The 272 and dare I say Chord Hugo both fell into that category.   Now I don't know the Hugo at all but the 272 I do and it ticks so many boxes - great open sound, excellent functionality, reduces box count etc - but for some in the cold light of day it's not the ultimate solution.  Similarly there are some who eulogize - guilty as charged in respect of the 282 - about a particular component and again of course it's not the ultimate solution.

Regards,

Lindsay

I guess then that the test is how well that euphoria lasts over months and years when the initial buzz of ownership wears off.  

Well, I really hope it lasts as I've ordered a 272 to replace my SU, and probably driven my dealer to therapy in the process !

KR, J

The term 'moment of euphoria' in the context quoted, especially followed with comment about the cold light of day' suggested a transient strong liking for Hugo that then waned, while waning is not what I see on the forum, nor indeed dod I exoerience myself. (Mind you, I'm not convinced that 272 has waned in its appeal to the sector of people in whom it struck a chord as a one-box wonder, either?)

And as for upgraditis, it seems to be a very personal thing: some people seem to suffer it permanently, suggesting a permanent at least vague lack of real satisfaction - the 'grass is always greener' syndrome, while for other people it is simply until they can reach a predetermined goal, while quite possibly for some people it is seeking something undefined until they find it. Clearly for Analogmusic the latter was finding the right source, to be content to the exclusion of all else apparently, but for others it is a good sound from the system as a whole, in which other components like the right sounding speakers play a crucial part, and within which a sufficiently good source is but one component, whether 'sufficiently good' for the individual is 272, NDX, xxx+Hugo or anything higher or lower.

To the OP, with  the NDX, you would have an upgrade path through changing the DAC if you wished in the future (there are better DACs), with quite a few people realising benefits that way. Otherwise all I'd suggest if not yet beyond the point of no return is consider something like the Core (subject to confirmation as to performance, being so new), Melco, Innuos Zenith through their rendered outputs direct into a DAC, so avoiding the potential trials and tribulations of streaming across a network, keeping your NAS for vital back-up duties. DACs include nDAC, Mojo (widely said to be as good as Hugo if you don't need the volume control and high level output), and higher.

ray sheldon posted:

Well, had my demo yesterday and found the SN as great as I remembered.

On top of that, the NDX was finer sounding than the 272, and so it should be given the price of both and the NDX being a stand alone unit v a pre and streamer combined.

To try and explain in a few words...272/250, more aggressive top end sounded a too much in your face.  The 250 was good though and had I the funds would consider 282 etc.

SN and NDX, a good pairing. Smoother than the above, everything sounded more natural and lesse digital sounding.  SN has bags of power bottom end too.

 

Ray, my findings were broadly the same as yours when I auditioned various 272 and NDX based systems. My initial expectation was that I would end up with a 272, but after listening, I simply preferred the NDX based systems, so that's what I bought. There is a small downside in terms of convenience, in that although system automation is a good thing, the volume control on the combined units (Superuniti, 272) if much better, but that was a sacrifice I was prepared to make for the sound quality benefits I heard. Hope you enjoy the new system.

Okay a little clarification required.

As I say other than a short listen through phones I have no experience of the Hugo.  Clearly the company are making considerable progress with Digital technology and for a UK company that is excellent.  And not for one minute do I question the long term enjoyment of those that have the product in their systems.

Similarly, I know there are more than a few users on here who after a considerable period of ownership consider the 272 an excellent music maker and on this I've heard it myself and it is very good.    But  my point about euphoria is informed by much of the stuff I have read on here - the traditional pre-amps are redundant, it's performance is equal or close to............subjective judgements I know. But a few weeks ago I went into a branch of Audio-T to pick up a phono wire for my Dad and a couple were just finishing a demo and I asked them what they thought and in their words "we started off with 272/200 but actually ND5XS/202/200 was a massive improvement".  

I leave it there.

Regards,

Lindsay

And that's why I go to pains to detail how my decisions re ND5XS and Hugo etc were based on real life comparisons and my assessments as to which sounded better - as indeed numbers of others have done, e.g when citing their preference for Hugo to the built-in DAC in NDX. Re Chord DACs, the impression I have from this forum is that the vast majority who have directly compared the current range, most notably Hugo, with Naim's DACs have preferred the Chord ones, and that certainly appears to include 'Naimophiles' (for want of a better description).

Meanwhile not long ago Huge made a detailed assessment of ND5XS against the 272 (the first direct comparison of them I recall reading), and IIRC concluded that the 272 was an Improvement on the ND5XS (within the terms of his assessment), which, interestingly, is different from those other customers you spoke to in Audio-T. But as always, it depends on the rest of the different systems used, the music played, and people's different expectations, likes and dislikes.

Dr_J posted
Well, I really hope it lasts as I've ordered a 272 to replace my SU, and probably driven my dealer to therapy in the process !

KR, J

I really enjoyed my SU for the past year, and was adamant that I wouldn't step on to the Naim upgrade treadmill, being satisfied with the addition of a 200DR, benefitting from someone else's urge to go to the 250DR. In both single and bi-amped configuration, it delivered a truly enjoyable musical experience.

Unsurprisingly my dealer recommended the 272 even as I collected the 200, but I stoically resisted any temptation. However, following the forum, I saw many rational contributors reporting great things about the 272, so I thought what harm could come from an audition?

I did not expect to experience the chalk and cheese impact of that first 272/200 audition. Nevertheless, I returned home even more determined to stick with my great SU/200 combo. I did a lot of research and then had a second and then a third extended audition and truth be told, HH is just plain right. The 272/200 was miles better than the SU/200 and that was that.

As others in this thread note, other separates combinations may sound better to them, just as the 272/250 might sound better to me than my proposed 272/200, and can be further polished with the addition of an XPS DR.

But, and it's a big but, to answer the OP's question, I rolled in the direction that I could best afford, that gave the best improvement to my system with the least technical and domestic disruption and l leaves me with what I consider a worthwhile uplift to what was already a great musical experience!

As I have said before, just my two penneth, and your mileage may vary.

KR, J

I think it's you who is the rational one, Dr J. I bough a 272/250DR without even hearing it. I didn't even try the 250 on my SU, I simply swapped one for the other. I'm very pleased that you like the 272/200, which I'm sure is super. Just don't try the XPS for a while though.

I'm sure the OP has made the right decision for him, and a I've said before, both options are great and one can surely be happy with either. But as for an NDX/202 being as good as a 272 I have my doubts, particularly based on Huge's detailed listening tests. But maybe the mystery couple in Audio T know better.

Nigel - you didn't try the 272 before commuting to the purchase and I meet a couple in Audio-T Oxford who felt having just experienced a Nd5xs/202/200 in comparison with the 272/200 that the former was the better performer but you question there judgement.  Have you done these comparisons for yourself - side by side?

Regards,

Lindsay

I'm just intrigued that it's so different to Huge's conclusions. I'm not particularly worried either way, though dissing the 272 does seem the thing to do at the moment. The nearest I've come to a comparison is my 272, XPS and 250 against Trickydickie's NDX, 282 and 250 and couldn't discern any diference, though of course it was with different speakers in different rooms. All these setups are good and there's no way I'd attempt to rank them, life's too short. 

Okay I am not dissing the 272 I've said it often enough it's excellent but having heard myself a 272/250 vs NDX/SN2 at the Audiobarn both into Sopra 1s I preferred the latter so can understand the OPs decision.   Whilst of course I wasn't at the demo in Audio T I similarly understand their decision.  

ray sheldon posted:
Other reasons for not really wanting to go with 272/XPS/250..... I know I will probably end up swapping 272 for a 282+NDX+250....and the upgrade bug will stay with me till the day I die. Seriously though, I could have stopped with SN2. I think it's enough of an animal to rock the house. Same power output as a 250 anyway I think. 

 

I share the same sentiment as Analogmusic. The NAC 282 and NAP 250 DR will very likely stay with me till the very end. No more upgrade bug.

ray sheldon posted:
Other reasons for not really wanting to go with 272/XPS/250..... I know I will probably end up swapping 272 for a 282+NDX+250....and the upgrade bug will stay with me till the day I die. Seriously though, I could have stopped with SN2. I think it's enough of an animal to rock the house. Same power output as a 250 anyway I think. 

Anyone any experience with above set-ups or considered/done the same.  +/- thoughts?

 

I share the same sentiment as Analogmusic. The NAC 282 and NAP 250 DR will very likely stay with me until the very end. Personally I believe it's just a matter of managing expectations. If one is contented with the performance of the system, he/she will not easily pick up the upgrade bug even with a lowly Nait 5i.

There must be something about the N272 and NAP 250 that is not giving you full satisfaction thus causing you to look elsewhere. It is good to know that you have finally found something that will give you what you want. Nevertheless, it is interesting that you find the NDX / Supernait 2 to be preferable over the N272 / NAP 200. Perhaps the NDX / N272 / NAP 200 will be more comparable to the NDX / Supernait 2 though I understand the combination will cost more money, and this is where the NDX / Supernait 2 will represent higher value sound for pound.

 

If one were solely concerned with PRaT, then one could easily conclude that the ND5 XS / 202 / 200 could be better than the 272 / 200, when used with some types of speakers.

However in my real experience, for all it's strengths in PRaT, I don't believe the ND5 has anywhere near as well balanced a performance as the 272, as it's intended for use with less refined pre and power amps; and this will be carried through into the system.  Furthermore adding a power supply to a 272 makes for a much greater improvement in performance than adding a power supply to an ND5 XS.

Huge posted:

If one were solely concerned with PRaT, then one could easily conclude that the ND5 XS / 202 / 200 could be better than the 272 / 200, when used with some types of speakers.

However in my real experience, for all it's strengths in PRaT, I don't believe the ND5 has anywhere near as well balanced a performance as the 272, as it's intended for use with less refined pre and power amps; and this will be carried through into the system.  Furthermore adding a power supply to a 272 makes for a much greater improvement in performance than adding a power supply to an ND5 XS.

ND5XS + 202 actually costs considerably more than the 272 though? Unless Naim intends to cannibalize its own product hierarchy and sales, in theory the former should be sonically better.

Having extensively demoed various options involving 272 / NDX / ND5XS with various Naim pre/power combinations, and having owned the SN2 for almost 3 years, personally I'd agree with the observation that ND5XS + 202 is at least comparable to the 272. And like the OP, I also preferred the NDX / SN2 combination to the 272 / 250DR.

No quarter posted:

But what about an NDX/XPSDR/SN2 versus a N272/XPSDR/250DR...which one is better here?

I haven't compared the two combinations, but following the source first rule, I'd suspect the first option may have the edge, although the pre-amp section of the 272 also benefits from the XPSDR.

Taking a step back, adding XPSDR to the NDX or the N272 is a lot of money, before going down that route I think worthwhile exploring other options. e.g. adding a Hugo to the NDX / SN2.

I ended up going with the Hugo directly into the 250DR with an Auralic Aries as streamer after extensive demos end of last year. Cost wise the setup is comparable to the 272 / 250DR but I felt sound quality wise was much better.

Well technically,the power supply on the N272 will benefit the preamp the streamer and the Dac all at once.I own the N272 and the Hugo by the way,I was going to try a Core into the Hugo into the 272 eventually,but I need to get a power supply first,and I may jump to the 555dr,just waiting on a price,and money of course.

Hi have been reading this with interest. .... I found the 272 with 250dr was a very good combination ..... when I upgraded the power supply to 555ps it made an amazing difference ..... I now use the 272\555 with a nap500 and it sounds fantastic. I am sure a 552 would be better....but the 272 is very very capable... it was able to show the massive difference between the 250 and 500 ..... and then 500 to 500dr ....

Elevensheep posted:
Huge posted:

If one were solely concerned with PRaT, then one could easily conclude that the ND5 XS / 202 / 200 could be better than the 272 / 200, when used with some types of speakers.

However in my real experience, for all it's strengths in PRaT, I don't believe the ND5 has anywhere near as well balanced a performance as the 272, as it's intended for use with less refined pre and power amps; and this will be carried through into the system.  Furthermore adding a power supply to a 272 makes for a much greater improvement in performance than adding a power supply to an ND5 XS.

ND5XS + 202 actually costs considerably more than the 272 though? Unless Naim intends to cannibalize its own product hierarchy and sales, in theory the former should be sonically better.

Having extensively demoed various options involving 272 / NDX / ND5XS with various Naim pre/power combinations, and having owned the SN2 for almost 3 years, personally I'd agree with the observation that ND5XS + 202 is at least comparable to the 272. And like the OP, I also preferred the NDX / SN2 combination to the 272 / 250DR.

Are you sure that Naim fix the initial price point using a strict hierarchical pricing model rather than using an ROI based model?  If they use an ROI model then this argument doesn't hold.

Also as others have said, adding a power supply to the 272 gives additional benefits above and beyond those obtainable with an NDX, as the power supply also improves the pre-amp.  To get the same benefits as a 272 / XPSDR, for an NDX / 202 you'd need NDX + XPSDR / 202 + HiCap DR.

As I pointed out, there are differences in sonic presentation to take into account, as these will affect any one person's judgement based on their sonic preferences.  In this (and many other cases) theory doesn't hold water where individual people are concerned - people need to make up their own mind by listening (i.e. as you and I have done, even though we reached opposite conclusions!).

No quarter posted:

But what about an NDX/XPSDR/SN2 versus a N272/XPSDR/250DR...which one is better here?

The former in my opinion.  NDX and CDX2 with XPS are very high performers.     But there is a caveat with all of this which is if you have a large room and require demanding speakers 272/xps/300 or 500 (as Rich has done) is a very viable solution.  Kills off source first though

Huge posted:
Elevensheep posted:
Huge posted:

If one were solely concerned with PRaT, then one could easily conclude that the ND5 XS / 202 / 200 could be better than the 272 / 200, when used with some types of speakers.

However in my real experience, for all it's strengths in PRaT, I don't believe the ND5 has anywhere near as well balanced a performance as the 272, as it's intended for use with less refined pre and power amps; and this will be carried through into the system.  Furthermore adding a power supply to a 272 makes for a much greater improvement in performance than adding a power supply to an ND5 XS.

ND5XS + 202 actually costs considerably more than the 272 though? Unless Naim intends to cannibalize its own product hierarchy and sales, in theory the former should be sonically better.

Having extensively demoed various options involving 272 / NDX / ND5XS with various Naim pre/power combinations, and having owned the SN2 for almost 3 years, personally I'd agree with the observation that ND5XS + 202 is at least comparable to the 272. And like the OP, I also preferred the NDX / SN2 combination to the 272 / 250DR.

Are you sure that Naim fix the initial price point using a strict hierarchical pricing model rather than using an ROI based model?  If they use an ROI model then this argument doesn't hold.

Also as others have said, adding a power supply to the 272 gives additional benefits above and beyond those obtainable with an NDX, as the power supply also improves the pre-amp.  To get the same benefits as a 272 / XPSDR, for an NDX / 202 you'd need NDX + XPSDR / 202 + HiCap DR.

As I pointed out, there are differences in sonic presentation to take into account, as these will affect any one person's judgement based on their sonic preferences.  In this (and many other cases) theory doesn't hold water where individual people are concerned - people need to make up their own mind by listening (i.e. as you and I have done, even though we reached opposite conclusions!).

I thought this is just common sense - a manufacturer that sells products based on consumer's willingness to pay for superior sound quality that the more you pay the better the sound quality you get. If pricing is indeed based on ROI, surely some of the older Naim products such as 282 / 202 etc should be much cheaper now as initial investment would have been mostly depreciated, which clearly is not the case. And taking a step back, I actually can't think of a large manufacturer that adopts a ROI pricing model.

ND5XS + XPSDR / 202 + Hi Cap DR is roughly the same price as 272 + XPSDR, and given to my ears, the bare ND5XS / 202 sounds better than 272 alone, I'd imagine the power supply added combination would have the same outcome. Of course, the later has a box count advantage.

Agreed that people subjectively hear / appreciate the same sound differently, hence you and I arriving at different conclusions is entirely possible and logical

Richieroo posted:

Hi have been reading this with interest. .... I found the 272 with 250dr was a very good combination ..... when I upgraded the power supply to 555ps it made an amazing difference ..... I now use the 272\555 with a nap500 and it sounds fantastic. I am sure a 552 would be better....but the 272 is very very capable... it was able to show the massive difference between the 250 and 500 ..... and then 500 to 500dr ....

La la la. Not listening. Not what I want to hear, no sir'ee.

I have 272, xpsdr, bi amped 2x nap250dr, Proac D30dr. Sounds great. Rock fan, room 14x 21ft. No intention of dropping 272 for nds  etc and considering Proac d48r and nap500dr for more image and wump with similar a similar floor footprint and 'sensible' box count. Does this sound reasonable? Philip

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