You are happy with both your high quality Digital front end and your Record Player. How much do you use the latter?

I know the member info may give ones age,but I would be curious to see how that shakes out on this question. At (almost) 64, I consider myself one of the last generation(s) not truly computer literate (granted some ppl. are,but they had to learn rather than grow up with it. Anyway 40% radio (not always my nat5),25% and increasing with upgraded lp 12, 35% cd5. I barely know how/what can be done with streaming other than tremendous increase in variety. With unlimited$ would add streaming, but realistically torn between that or upgrading existing system 52 or 282 or 252 (sigh - decisions decisions)

CD555 - 90%

LP12 - 10%

Those figures should not be interpreted as an indication that I prefer the sound of my digital source. I enjoy listening to vinyl occasionally as something completely different. I find that a vinyl 'fix' is can be a bit special and really hit the spot when I'm in the mood for it.

Do you have any vinyl Kevin? I wouldn't get into the cost of buying a relatively expensive/high-spec LP12 if you do not have an existing collection of old vinyl. A lot of new releases of the pop/rock genre seem to be of debatable pressing and sound quality to me.

That said; the likes of Discogs is an excellent resource for building up a collection of good (old) vinyl. I recently paid £15 for a very nice copy of Bad Company's second album 'Straight Shooter' (1975) and it's a corker.

Us vinyl-heads bless those lovely people who are dumping collections of great stuff onto the market every day.

Good luck.

John.

Dave J posted:
james n posted:

How many Vinyl albums have you got Kevin ? Might be worth hanging fire until you've heard the ND555 ??

Or, if you liked what you heard with the LP12, you might have a listen to a KDS. Hmmm, that might be interesting.

I think I am a strange bird to this debate.  Like Dave J - Uber spec LP12 and current spec Klimax DS.  Software is 7K albums and 3K ripped CD's.

Last month Linn finally (after several years) natively integrated ROON into the KDS  (for the last year I have been using an alternative method for ROON integration).  For listening I just sit myself down in my easy chair with a tablet in hand - look at all of the records on the shelf - and then rummage through my ripped collection on the tablet.  Lazy perhaps?

Demo a KDS - even a Renew version.

kevin J Carden posted:

I’d be really interested to hear from any forum goers who have 2 or more top quality sources who would be good enough to share with me how much of your precious listening time you spend spinning Vinyl..

75% vinyl listening overall. I do tend to go in batches listening between vinyl and CD. Glad I have two sources, especially one that can play original all-analog productions from up to 60 years ago. For the record, I have a Rega RP6 TT and Naim CD5x. I wouldn't necessarily consider either a "top quality source", but I'm content with both.

kevin J Carden posted:
james n posted:

How many Vinyl albums have you got Kevin ? Might be worth hanging fire until you've heard the ND555 ??

ND555, or even DAVE is exactly what’s in the back of my mind James. However, there is that genre of of music I described earlier that I’m not convinced will ever sound as good digitally as I heard it rendered today by LP12. I have about 700 albums, of which maybe 400 I’d like to hear ‘done properly’ again (my NDS sounds impressive, but isn’t authentic to my ears). 

But you are right; I don’t think LP12 will replace my streamer for Classical which is more than half of what I listen to (though I’m prepared to potentially change that view ) nor will it be format of choice for modern recordings of other kinds of music. Interestingly, Peter played me Adele’s ‘Hello’ today to illustrate how even modern recordings can sound great on Vinyl. Yes, it did sound good, but whilst smoother, it didn’t match the visceral experience of how I’ve heard that sound at home on the NDS. Impact and emotional charge was a notch or two down for sure. So this is definitely going to be an occasional indulgence. I’m just trying to determine how occasionally is occasional I think. 

I know I’ve banged on about this before, but Hello has a dynamic range of 4 or 5 on digital formats and 11 on vinyl. So it sounds bloody awful on digital and is a good track to show you how big the difference can be. It won’t always be this extreme though. Hopefully, Peter told you that.

It is not uncommon to find these differences on modern popular and not so popular music.

I have an LP12 and an NDS. The LP12 is more likely to be used when I want to listen rather than have music playing.

Keith

Kevin,

Ref:

Thanks Fernar. Interesting that a better LP12 swung it back a bit. I see you have Lingo, Kore, Ekos (cartridge?),now, but what did you change from? 

For everyone’s reference I should maybe clarify that what I heard today and was impressed by was LP12,  Roksan Nima, Dynavector 10x5, Kore, Lingo4. 

 

My LP12 ownership started off with a newly serviced second hand deck with a Akito arm + Adkit cartridge + lid donated from my Linn Axis that had stopped working (Power supply failed) + new Hercules power supply.

The upgrades taken over time were:

  • New motor (the old one started clicking)
  • Trampoline (the original base board was very tatty)
  • Cirkus bearing
  • Tigerpaw Khan top-plate
  • Ekos(Mk1) arm + T-Cable + Dynavector 20X2 Cartridge
  • Outer platter (the original had marks that I could not polish out and showed when playing a record)
  • Lingo 3
  • Tigerpaw sKare counterweight

 

Since the money tree at the end of my garden is not very big and the money it does produce get spent by my wife and children on things like food, clothes, fuel and holidays, etc. I have to think carefully what where and if I upgrade. 

On the one hand I would like to upgrade to a Lingo 4 or Raikal power supply or replace the arm with an Ekos SE or upgrade the cartridge.... alternatively since I listen more to the digital side, maybe upgrade the N272... but since there is currently no follow-on to the N272, this would mean changing to a NDX 2 and also a new pre-amp + associated power supply... which would mean an increase in the box count....  so currently I am in 'wait and see' mode .

For serious listening;

Roon via Nova 98%

Vinyl (Lp12/ittok/troika) 2%

Vinyl tends to be in binges. I would flog the vinyl except it's a reminder of around 50 years of hifi geekery and I don't need the money, also the physical LPs have a sentimental value.

I had a think about this earlier and realised that both CD player and turntable have been pressed into use barely a handful of times this year, and then it was only to use them as they were there rather than a need to hear CD or vinyl music.

Working at home music is on all day, all streamed through what was an ND5XS into a Nait 5si and is now a 272/250 combo, generally 6 Music in the morning, Radio 2 or 4 around lunchtime then before folk start arriving home around from mid-afternoon onwards it'll be my own music streamed from the NAS.

For serious listening in the evenings it's streamed from the NAS. Throw in an occasional nostalgia trip on cassette or minidisc, it's close to 100% streamed, either radio or NAS (all FLAC files now). Note to self - re-instigate the Tidal sub.

 

I can only relate this to a few years ago as I no longer have both.

10 years ago, rough estimate:

CD (Shearne Phase 7) 40-50%

Vinyl (Thorens TD150/RB300/AT-OC9) 50-60% 

The choice was purely on what I fancied playing. LP collection at the time was a bit larger than CD, and I still had plenty of go-to favourites that I aired ofted.

Between then and 8 years ago vinyl play was near 100% as I worked my way through my entire collection playing every one (that itself actually a rather interesting exercise, and one that perhaps we all could do with doing from time to time with our collections!). My trigger for doing that was ripping every record to CD, having not bought a record for probably 20 years, and that way preserving them from any further deterioration. On completion of that some time in 2010 I ceased playing vinyl and sold the TT,

 

Kevin - this thread has been an interesting read through - thanks for sharing your experience. As you may remember i’m pondering a similar question, although I’ve just not had the time to investigate further as yet - rather frustrating!

Could you please expand a little on the dem with Peter at Cymbiosis? Was it a stock LP12 or one of his secondhand part builds? Did you compare similar tracks via digital streaming to the LP12? 

Hi Kevin,

I have NDS with 2 x 555PS and an LP12 at Lingo 1, Cirkus, Kore, Ittok, T-Kable, Krystal spec.  Since acquiring the LP12 around 6 months ago, I have bought as many LPs as I could get to bolster my collection because I love how vinyl sounds; I also love how tactile vinyl is and have no problem getting up every twenty minutes or so to flip sides; surface noise can be an issue but I seem to be able to mostly ignore it when it's there!

Interestingly, on the right record, even my modest spec LP12 does things in terms of musical engagement that my NDS doesn't.  'Better' isn't a word I am wholly comfortable with because it is somewhat subjective.  More engaging on the other hand; for me, yes.  When funds allow, I will invest in a PS upgrade for the LP12 which should take it to a whole new level of involvement.  

Percentage wise, I probably still listen to the NDS more but that is only because I have more music on the NAS than records (around 400).  As my vinyl collection builds however, I can see me listening to the LP12 even more.

Am I happy with my NDS too?  Yes, I am, but it is a different listening experience and I confess, I am often distracted by the iPad when I listen; not something that happens with vinyl.

I have absolutely no regrets whatsoever buying the LP12; I only wish I'd done it sooner. 

Cheers,

Ian

when i had the 272

%20 Tidal - when does not drop

%60 Streaming from NAS

%5 CD

%15 LP

Now without the Streamer CD/LP 50/50..

 Still i found many of the LPs are just sound as CD but all Blue Note 45s are far but far better than CD

CD2x/555PSDR/SL DIN-DIN vs Dr.Feickert Woodpacker II/Jelco SA-750/ Lyra Delos/ Brinkmann Fien 

I will jazz with LPs rest with CDs till a new streamer.... maybe add a tube phono stage as well....

LPs are hassle except night time listening...

some LP's still sound excellent to my ears, but since the 

joerand posted:

With stats like that it's a wonder you can call yourself "analogmusic"

I don't see a problem here. Hugo was invented way after I chose my Naim.

Hugo is to my ears, the first digital source that I liked enough to make owning a turntable not a necessity  for me, anymore.

Dave takes that a lot further and is much superior to Hugo, and Blu2/Dave well that is very special and magical it just makes me believe there’s no hi if system there only a live musical performance 

Slightly different answer. I have just bought a SN2 and Stageline. Since then I am playing vinyl 50/50 vs my ND5 XS and can't get enough of it. So I have effectively just acquired a new TT as my 1985 Rega Planar 3 with Garrott P77 (fully serviced and with TT PSU motor upgrade) sounds stunning through Naim amps. Before the new amp I was playing 90% ND5 and 10% Rega.

I have replaced a few of my LPs over the years with CDs or digital files so there isn't a lot of overlap. I have around twice as may ripped CDs as LPs.

Quite interesting. Taking only the serious listening where people have cited more than that, and most recent where things changed, the crude stats so far appear to show the following:-

  • where people use vinyl and CD, the preference ratio is 1.3 to 1 (vinyl to CD)
  • where people use vinyl and streaming (people not separating out Tidal), the preference ratio is 1 to 2.4 (vinyl to streaming)
  • where people use vinyl and streaming (including Tidal where mentioned separately), the preference ratio is 1 to 2.1 (vinyl to streaming)
  • only one person cited using both CD and streaming.

 

So, overall in terms of playing frequency vinyl wins clearly but not overwhelmingly against CD, however streaming wins against vinyl, and by almost twice the margin, though less so when streaming is taken to include Tidal.

And it seems that once people get streaming, they cease bothering with CD.

My overall conclusion from the above is that it tends to confirm my own view that streaming, from one’s own collection, is best. It is certainly the most popular. (Amongst the respondees so far).

My listening (FWIW) has changed much over the years - mainly due to availability.  It used to be 100% vinyl, then increasingly tape (mainly reel to reel, but also cassette) but vinyl was my much preferred source.  If I was sitting down just listening to music it would be vinyl.  DAT increased my tape listening to some extent, but it was always from recordings of my LPs or from radio.  Vinyl still was preferred.

When CD came out, I used that more and more, and vinyl less and less.  

With streaming, I eventually sold my TT and am seriously considering selling my CD player.

Steve

For clarification, my assessment of stats in my last post was the proportion of usage of each medium where people did use vinyl and another, not simply the average for all the figures given for one medium against all the figures for another.

The figures can be summarised further:

Where people use streaming* and vinyl, streaming is 2.4 times as popular as vinyl as a playing medium as vinyl, which is 1.3 times as popular as CD for people who ese both vinyl and CD.

I didn’t include radio and tape in the figures, but radio is significantly less popular than streaming, vinyl or CD, and tape very much a minority interest.

 

   *Not including where people have said wholly from Tidal.

Emre posted:

when i had the 272

%20 Tidal - when does not drop

%60 Streaming from NAS

%5 CD

%15 LP

Now without the Streamer CD/LP 50/50..

 Still i found many of the LPs are just sound as CD but all Blue Note 45s are far but far better than CD

CD2x/555PSDR/SL DIN-DIN vs Dr.Feickert Woodpacker II/Jelco SA-750/ Lyra Delos/ Brinkmann Fien 

I will jazz with LPs rest with CDs till a new streamer.... maybe add a tube phono stage as well....

LPs are hassle except night time listening...

brinkman edison?   or nagra vps or ear 88pb?  the last is a killer for the price.

Personally, as the majorly , i listen mostly to my streamer . But i don’t find that the streaming source is better sounding than my turntable.  With good recorded lps, i still find that vinyl sounds more real than digital.  But i am discovering more music in digital format and the convenience is bigger too.  ( nds/555dr.   /   rega rp10/ delos/ ear 912 phono).

Innocent Bystander posted:

For clarification, my assessment of stats in my last post was the proportion of usage of each medium where people did use vinyl and another, not simply the average for all the figures given for one medium against all the figures for another.

The figures can be summarised further:

Where people use streaming* and vinyl, streaming is 2.4 times as popular as vinyl as a playing medium as vinyl, which is 1.3 times as popular as CD for people who ese both vinyl and CD.

I didn’t include radio and tape in the figures, but radio is significantly less popular than streaming, vinyl or CD, and tape very much a minority interest.

 

   *Not including where people have said wholly from Tidal.

Yes, I use streaming more than vinyl because it’s easier to put on and do other stuff while I’m listening. I use Tidal because I spend a lot of time listening to new stuff which I don’t want to buy. 

I spend more money on vinyl and the music I really like I own on vinyl.

I spend more time watching digital TV than Blu Ray, but that doesn’t mean Blu Ray has worse picture and sound. Luckily for me, I don’t have to choose between the two.

The bottom line is, it’s not binary. The perfect early 21st century system has both. Vinyl, at its best outperforms digital, but most people wouldn’t want to be without digital, which is also bloody brilliant. It’s not a competition. If the digital-only folks are happy to do without vinyl then fair enough, but they are missing out on more than nice big cover art and the ritual of playing LPs (in my opinion).

KRM posted:

 

The bottom line is, it’s not binary. The perfect early 21st century system has both. Vinyl, at its best outperforms digital, but most people wouldn’t want to be without digital, which is also bloody brilliant. It’s not a competition. If the digital-only folks are happy to do without vinyl then fair enough, but they are missing out on more than nice big cover art and the ritual of playing LPs (in my opinion).

In your view, that is (shared by some others). My view (amd that of some others) is the opposite, though I do fully accept that some digital masterings may be inferior to some vinyl masterings - there the fault is the bad mastering, not the medium, and with sufficient resources to have a top flight TT and everything that goes with it certainly could be complementary to digital, enabling sourcing of the best copies in whatever medium, for which doubtless across my range of music taste some would be vinyl and others digital, and the better mastered copies might overcome the limitations otherwise inherentn in vinyl.

Yetizone posted:

Kevin - this thread has been an interesting read through - thanks for sharing your experience. As you may remember i’m pondering a similar question, although I’ve just not had the time to investigate further as yet - rather frustrating!

Could you please expand a little on the dem with Peter at Cymbiosis? Was it a stock LP12 or one of his secondhand part builds? Did you compare similar tracks via digital streaming to the LP12? 

Hi YZ, the reason I drove 200miles to Leicester was because Peter is uniquely knowledgeable and skilled in all things LP12 and his demo’s are so thorough. He has around 20 differently spec’d LP12’s in the room which he painstakingly switches in and out so that you can here how each different component affects the sound. I don’t want to wax too lyrical and risk getting moderated. Suffice to say that if you decide to investigate LP12 I can’t think of a better place to do it. 

Re comparison of stream vs Vinyl. No, not in the LP12 dems. Just Vinyl vs Vinyl. In today’s speaker dem I used both, but no similar tracks in both formats. Not necessary in my view. Good luck with your search. Kevin

Innocent Bystander posted:
KRM posted:

 

The bottom line is, it’s not binary. The perfect early 21st century system has both. Vinyl, at its best outperforms digital, but most people wouldn’t want to be without digital, which is also bloody brilliant. It’s not a competition. If the digital-only folks are happy to do without vinyl then fair enough, but they are missing out on more than nice big cover art and the ritual of playing LPs (in my opinion).

In your view, that is (shared by some others). My view (amd that of some others) is the opposite, though I do fully accept that some digital masterings may be inferior to some vinyl masterings - there the fault is the bad mastering, not the medium, and with sufficient resources to have a top flight TT and everything that goes with it certainly could be complementary to digital, enabling sourcing of the best copies in whatever medium, for which doubtless across my range of music taste some would be vinyl and others digital, and the better mastered copies might overcome the limitations otherwise inherentn in vinyl.

Hello, by Adele sounds better on vinyl, but it’s not a fair competition because the digital is so bad. That goes beyond opinion. Apart from that, I reckon we agree 

Keith

I have about 1000 CD's that may make their way back into my life in some form in the future...I just enjoy vinyl; all aspects of it. Grew up with vinyl- I enjoy finding, cleaning, collecting  and playing it. Sitting in a chair with an iPad has no appeal. I think vinyl sounds better as well..

It is worth noting, unless you have old vinyl, all new vinyl/phono is digital... the only thing one is changing is the reconstruction filter... clearly the reconstruction filter with vinyl is an elaborate electro mechanical one and full of non linearities and distortions compared to a purely electronic one.. and yes these distortions and non linearities can sound appealing, especially LF companding errors on an RIAA preamp..... so the choice is between electronic DAC or phono playback... but both are digital........ and to say one outperforms the other in a general sense is clearly nonsense... albeit the electronic DAC will almost always be more accurate. The point that matters is preference of choice of playback and preference of sound presentation for given equipment and media.

CD approx 15%

Local ripped CD streaming 70%

internet streaming (now Qobuz) 10%

FM 5%

(Phono was about 20% until I sold it as described earlier in the thread)

 

 

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