You are happy with both your high quality Digital front end and your Record Player. How much do you use the latter?

CDS3: RP8 50:50. I tend to buy mostly vinyl now and CD only when I have to. There have been some poor pressings along the way but not enough to change my mind.

I did rip all my CDs to NAS but never replaced the CDS with a streamer. At some point I may.

Dave

 

Peter Dinh posted:

No DAC can match the LP12 playback. I use the LP12 for serious listening in the evening with a glass of whiskey, whereas I listening to a streaming device or radio as a background music while I move around doing odd jobs.

I don’t know if you’ve listened to a Dave in a good  system...?  However, I don’t recall anyone seggesting that good digital and good vinyl match - they inevitably are different, and SiS gives a good account in his recent post - it is then down to which is right’ or ‘better’ to the listener - my own preference generally is to hear what has been recorded, as far as possible without modification once the artist has completed it. (Of course some recordings are bad, and sometimes I wish I could modify them, but if I were to consider that I’d want it tailored to improve bad recordings but not affect good ones - maybe one day I’ll try dsp switched in for poor recordings, finding settings that make them sound as good as I can.)

I certainly do enjoy listening to vinyl on other people’s systems,though to me good digital is no less engaging - it just lets the music out - while with vinyl it is very rare that I remain unaware of its imperfections for any length of time - largely I can ignore them and just enjoy the music, but I don’t have to do that when streaming on my system.

Regarding yoyr described listening pattern, in part of course vinyl demands that you don’t get stuck in something else, as you have to change flip  every 20 minutes and change every 40, whereas with streaming it is possible to queue more than one album, or if you don’t there is just silence until you briefly select another. Maybe the process with vinyl forces focus, whereas  without it it is easier to treat it as background - I don’t know, as I find that very often if i have music playing on my system while trying to work, I end up forgetting to work...

kevin J Carden posted:
Yetizone posted:

Kevin - this thread has been an interesting read through - thanks for sharing your experience. As you may remember i’m pondering a similar question, although I’ve just not had the time to investigate further as yet - rather frustrating!

Could you please expand a little on the dem with Peter at Cymbiosis? Was it a stock LP12 or one of his secondhand part builds? Did you compare similar tracks via digital streaming to the LP12? 

Hi YZ, the reason I drove 200miles to Leicester was because Peter is uniquely knowledgeable and skilled in all things LP12 and his demo’s are so thorough. He has around 20 differently spec’d LP12’s in the room which he painstakingly switches in and out so that you can here how each different component affects the sound. I don’t want to wax too lyrical and risk getting moderated. Suffice to say that if you decide to investigate LP12 I can’t think of a better place to do it. 

Re comparison of stream vs Vinyl. No, not in the LP12 dems. Just Vinyl vs Vinyl. In today’s speaker dem I used both, but no similar tracks in both formats. Not necessary in my view. Good luck with your search. Kevin

Thanks Kevin - appreciated. Likewise, its a long drive for me as well, so its very reassuring the dem was as thorough as you describe. I think i'm going to have to organise a day trip to Leicester.

I use an LP12 (upper mid spec, as Chris, above), NDS streaming ripped CDs mostly and NAT01. Over the last few weeks I reckon it's been:

vinyl 5%

streamed CDs 50%

radio (BBC Radio 3FM) 45%

Of course these are WAGs, but I so rarely use the LP12, which, owing to the faff of vinyl, I tend to save for special situations where I know I have time to sit and listen, rather than just hear. The NAT01 is playing most of the time when I'm in the house and is probably the overall best in terms of SQ.

Peter Dinh posted:

No DAC can match the LP12 playback. I use the LP12 for serious listening in the evening with a glass of whiskey, whereas I listening to a streaming device or radio as a background music while I move around doing odd jobs.

 

The Chord Blu2 upscaler/Dave DAC combo comfortably blows an LP12 into the weeds.

All modern Vinyl comes from digital files anyway.

analogmusic posted:
Peter Dinh posted:

No DAC can match the LP12 playback. I use the LP12 for serious listening in the evening with a glass of whiskey, whereas I listening to a streaming device or radio as a background music while I move around doing odd jobs.

 

The Chord Blu2 upscaler/Dave DAC combo comfortably blows an LP12 into the weeds.

But the DAC would need a very powerful and therefore noisy fan to do so.

Ardbeg10y posted:
analogmusic posted:
Peter Dinh posted:

No DAC can match the LP12 playback. I use the LP12 for serious listening in the evening with a glass of whiskey, whereas I listening to a streaming device or radio as a background music while I move around doing odd jobs.

 

The Chord Blu2 upscaler/Dave DAC combo comfortably blows an LP12 into the weeds.

But the DAC would need a very powerful and therefore noisy fan to do so.

ALternatively a very powerful amp, with the speakers by the LP12 pointing at it...

Since purchase of my Rega RP10 w/Apheta 2 cartridge & Aria phono stage, I've been listening to vinyl about 65% of the time, streaming 30% and CDs 5%. Whenever I go back to streaming ripped lossless CDs, I'm extremely pleased with the sound quality. Just enjoying the tactile nature of LPs as well as their sound lately.

Such a long story but I had a lp12 in the 80s so wanted another. My main system is an NDS 555 . I recently decided to buy a specked up 80s lp12 and after a day I hated it!!!!!  Why?  My lps sounded awful, scratched etc. I came to the conclusion that my wife was correct that I had romantic thoughts about the lp12 and agreed that she was correct.

I returned the lp 12 and decided to buy a rp3 / phono stage and shelf for the occasional lp listening.After 1 day with the rp3, I have switched my NDS and NAS off as this rp3 sounds so incredible that my vinyl appreciation has took a huge leap.

Why did the Lp12 sound-bad? No idea —- my guess is that it was incorrectly set up?

More than happy with viny, but if a Rega 3 can sound so good,how good could ivinyl really sound? ............ thanks

Mark

 

 

Freightliner Mark posted:

Such a long story but I had a lp12 in the 80s so wanted another. My main system is an NDS 555 . I recently decided to buy a specked up 80s lp12 and after a day I hated it!!!!!  Why?  My lps sounded awful, scratched etc. I came to the conclusion that my wife was correct that I had romantic thoughts about the lp12 and agreed that she was correct.

I returned the lp 12 and decided to buy a rp3 / phono stage and shelf for the occasional lp listening.After 1 day with the rp3, I have switched my NDS and NAS off as this rp3 sounds so incredible that my vinyl appreciation has took a huge leap.

Why did the Lp12 sound-bad? No idea —- my guess is that it was incorrectly set up?

More than happy with viny, but if a Rega 3 can sound so good,how good could ivinyl really sound? ............ thanks

Mark

 

 

better than nds....but with original analog lps , well recorded and in near mint / mint condition.

Anyone listening to SACD? I saw no one in this thread mention this explicitly, perhaps implicitly subsumed under CD replay. Naim never built a SACD player and I don't own a proper player myself, not counting an old Pioneer DVD/SACD player.

SACD was often declared dead, and for rock/pop it apparently is, but there is still quite a number of new releases in classical music, according to hraudio.net. 

Morning Kevin

have 2 sources NDX & LP12,  love both - before the updgrades on my deck in April used NDX 80% and LP12 20%

since the upgrades on LP12 it's fliped around now vinyl around 80% - dont get me wrong love the NDX as a source esp High res or DSD

but I have to say since the upgrades to LP12 (by Peter @Cymbiosis) the quality of the music the LP12 can deliver has gone beyond NDX

I thought the best upgrade on my system was 300 non DR to DR - but the recent upgrades on LP12 are nothing short of spectaclar

I would find an LP12 specialist and listen and then decide - have a budget in mind

 

antony d posted:

Morning Kevin

have 2 sources NDX & LP12,  love both - before the updgrades on my deck in April used NDX 80% and LP12 20%

since the upgrades on LP12 it's fliped around now vinyl around 80% - dont get me wrong love the NDX as a source esp High res or DSD

but I have to say since the upgrades to LP12 (by Peter @Cymbiosis) the quality of the music the LP12 can deliver has gone beyond NDX

I thought the best upgrade on my system was 300 non DR to DR - but the recent upgrades on LP12 are nothing short of spectaclar

I would find an LP12 specialist and listen and then decide - have a budget in mind

 

Thanks Anthony. Good to hear! I already pulled the trigger on Thursday. My build is:

Oak plinth ex-dem LP12, Trampolin2, Kore, Lingo4, Roksan NimaHDC, Dynavector 10X5 + Stageline S to be powered from 552. 

Not on a par with yours, but sounded pretty darn good to me. Kevin

antony d posted:

Morning Kevin

have 2 sources NDX & LP12,  love both - before the updgrades on my deck in April used NDX 80% and LP12 20%

since the upgrades on LP12 it's fliped around now vinyl around 80% - dont get me wrong love the NDX as a source esp High res or DSD

but I have to say since the upgrades to LP12 (by Peter @Cymbiosis) the quality of the music the LP12 can deliver has gone beyond NDX

I thought the best upgrade on my system was 300 non DR to DR - but the recent upgrades on LP12 are nothing short of spectaclar

I would find an LP12 specialist and listen and then decide - have a budget in mind

 

That’s great and I know how you feel, but you know the DR upgrade on the 300 is phenomenal. I suspect you won’t be able to stop yourself :-)

Keith

kevin J Carden posted:
antony d posted:

Morning Kevin

have 2 sources NDX & LP12,  love both - before the updgrades on my deck in April used NDX 80% and LP12 20%

since the upgrades on LP12 it's fliped around now vinyl around 80% - dont get me wrong love the NDX as a source esp High res or DSD

but I have to say since the upgrades to LP12 (by Peter @Cymbiosis) the quality of the music the LP12 can deliver has gone beyond NDX

I thought the best upgrade on my system was 300 non DR to DR - but the recent upgrades on LP12 are nothing short of spectaclar

I would find an LP12 specialist and listen and then decide - have a budget in mind

 

Thanks Anthony. Good to hear! I already pulled the trigger on Thursday. My build is:

Oak plinth ex-dem LP12, Trampolin2, Kore, Lingo4, Roksan NimaHDC, Dynavector 10X5 + Stageline S to be powered from 552. 

Not on a par with yours, but sounded pretty darn good to me. Kevin

Big thanks to everyone who kindly shared their Vinyl experiences and listening habits. It’s been a fascinating read and definitely helpful for me in my decision making on whether to add back Vinyl to the system and what spec. Perhaps unsurprisingly, I didn’t quite manage to stick to budget (£4-5k) of course, overrunning the top end by 10%, but could have been worse. Much worse...

thanks again, Kevin

Peter Dinh posted:

No DAC can match the LP12 playback. I use the LP12 for serious listening in the evening with a glass of whiskey, whereas I listening to a streaming device or radio as a background music while I move around doing odd jobs.

This clearly is a ridiculous statement as from an engineering perspective the LP12, cartridge, tonearm, RIAA preamp is effectively a DAC reconstruction filter assuming the vinyl was mastered using PCM encoded content, which nearly all contemporary vinyl is.

What you can say is that you strongly prefer the electro-mechanical reconstruction filter response from your LP12 setup compared to your current or experienced solely electronic  DACs... which is fair enough... as preference is entirely subjective.

My personal preference and experience  differs from yours, but I don’t say no LP12 can match a DAC for playback.....

listening as I type  to Chopin Nocturne No1 from my 88.2/24 source ... and is sublime ... I am in that recital hall, the hidef enabling the acoustic profile of the room, piano and pianist to come through to make it feel truly credible, absorbing and emotionally engaging ... what a way to start a bank holiday weekend.

CD555 90%  (An amazing player, but needs the 552 to properly shine)

AirDAC 10%  (Only for music I don’t yet own.  If I like it I buy the CD)

Linn Axis 0%. (After a year and only one serious session, not relegated to a cupboard to allow for better placing of the DAC)

I guess things might be different if I had a better Streamer (although without replacing the CD, it needs to be a 1 box solution).  As much as I like the idea of vinyl, is suspect I still wouldn’t suffiuciently use a fully loaded LP12, and therefore resisted.  My LP collection is also lacks anything produce post 1992! (Since acquiring my first Naim item - the CDI).

Jrfitzen - I think SACD (and to some extend DVD-A) was a sadly missed opportunity for higher quality sound... It was a shame that Naim didnt come out with a SACD player - clearly they knew how to make CD sound exceptional, so would have thought that could have also provided an exceptional SACD player - I guess the volume opportunity could not be justified....

On the other hand I know that the some of the SACD disks I do have, are not always a major step up from the CD equivalent - mainly I think due to not taking care on the production. A well produced SACD can give a serious uplift in quality for both stereo  and multi-channel.

I have a number of SACD disks (around 30) - and currently listen to them via an Oppo 205 - I am looking at the offerings from PS Audio or high-end Yamaha... I would love to be able to afford a dCD player - but for the amount of time I spend actually listening to disks as a source, I cant really justify the cost of a dCS setup.

jfritzen posted:

Anyone listening to SACD? I saw no one in this thread mention this explicitly, perhaps implicitly subsumed under CD replay. Naim never built a SACD player and I don't own a proper player myself, not counting an old Pioneer DVD/SACD player.

SACD was often declared dead, and for rock/pop it apparently is, but there is still quite a number of new releases in classical music, according to hraudio.net. 

I still buy SACD's today. Was a believer in the format from when it first appeared. SACD isn't dead in the rock/pop or any other genre for that matter. Have a look at the Music Direct site, it's a real SACD treasure trove. And off course there are DSD downloads available now for a while. Don't play SACD's on a cheap DVD/SACD player, SACD's will sound the same on these things as a redbook CD and is just marketing nonsense.

Others have "crunched the numbers" on this thread so I will leave it up to them if they care to have a go at this one.

A brief look leads me to come to the conclusion that many of us have invested in extremely expensive playback systems yet there seems to be a large amount of time spent using these expensive systems to listen to low resolution internet radio.  I see many say that a large number of their daytime listening hours are spent this way

fernar posted:

Jrfitzen - I think SACD (and to some extend DVD-A) was a sadly missed opportunity for higher quality sound... It was a shame that Naim didnt come out with a SACD player - clearly they knew how to make CD sound exceptional, so would have thought that could have also provided an exceptional SACD player - I guess the volume opportunity could not be justified....

On the other hand I know that the some of the SACD disks I do have, are not always a major step up from the CD equivalent - mainly I think due to not taking care on the production. A well produced SACD can give a serious uplift in quality for both stereo  and multi-channel.

I have a number of SACD disks (around 30) - and currently listen to them via an Oppo 205 - I am looking at the offerings from PS Audio or high-end Yamaha... I would love to be able to afford a dCD player - but for the amount of time I spend actually listening to disks as a source, I cant really justify the cost of a dCS setup.

Drikus posted:
jfritzen posted:

Anyone listening to SACD? I saw no one in this thread mention this explicitly, perhaps implicitly subsumed under CD replay. Naim never built a SACD player and I don't own a proper player myself, not counting an old Pioneer DVD/SACD player.

SACD was often declared dead, and for rock/pop it apparently is, but there is still quite a number of new releases in classical music, according to hraudio.net. 

I still buy SACD's today. Was a believer in the format from when it first appeared. SACD isn't dead in the rock/pop or any other genre for that matter. Have a look at the Music Direct site, it's a real SACD treasure trove. And off course there are DSD downloads available now for a while. Don't play SACD's on a cheap DVD/SACD player, SACD's will sound the same on these things as a redbook CD and is just marketing nonsense.

After many years of saying NO Linn recently introduced DSD playback to the KDS.  I purchased a few Dylan DSD downloads.

WOW!

In case you missed that - WOW!

glevethan posted:
fernar posted:

Jrfitzen - I think SACD (and to some extend DVD-A) was a sadly missed opportunity for higher quality sound... It was a shame that Naim didnt come out with a SACD player - clearly they knew how to make CD sound exceptional, so would have thought that could have also provided an exceptional SACD player - I guess the volume opportunity could not be justified....

On the other hand I know that the some of the SACD disks I do have, are not always a major step up from the CD equivalent - mainly I think due to not taking care on the production. A well produced SACD can give a serious uplift in quality for both stereo  and multi-channel.

I have a number of SACD disks (around 30) - and currently listen to them via an Oppo 205 - I am looking at the offerings from PS Audio or high-end Yamaha... I would love to be able to afford a dCD player - but for the amount of time I spend actually listening to disks as a source, I cant really justify the cost of a dCS setup.

Drikus posted:
jfritzen posted:

Anyone listening to SACD? I saw no one in this thread mention this explicitly, perhaps implicitly subsumed under CD replay. Naim never built a SACD player and I don't own a proper player myself, not counting an old Pioneer DVD/SACD player.

SACD was often declared dead, and for rock/pop it apparently is, but there is still quite a number of new releases in classical music, according to hraudio.net. 

I still buy SACD's today. Was a believer in the format from when it first appeared. SACD isn't dead in the rock/pop or any other genre for that matter. Have a look at the Music Direct site, it's a real SACD treasure trove. And off course there are DSD downloads available now for a while. Don't play SACD's on a cheap DVD/SACD player, SACD's will sound the same on these things as a redbook CD and is just marketing nonsense.

After many years of saying NO Linn recently introduced DSD playback to the KDS.  I purchased a few Dylan DSD downloads.

WOW!

In case you missed that - WOW!

That's strange this NO coming from Linn because they released a great number of SACD's until a while ago and I've got a whole bunch of them. Seems like a natural next step then for them to offer DSD downloads/playback...

fernar posted:

Jrfitzen - I think SACD (and to some extend DVD-A) was a sadly missed opportunity for higher quality sound... It was a shame that Naim didnt come out with a SACD player - clearly they knew how to make CD sound exceptional, so would have thought that could have also provided an exceptional SACD player - I guess the volume opportunity could not be justified....

On the other hand I know that the some of the SACD disks I do have, are not always a major step up from the CD equivalent - mainly I think due to not taking care on the production. A well produced SACD can give a serious uplift in quality for both stereo  and multi-channel.

I have a number of SACD disks (around 30) - and currently listen to them via an Oppo 205 - I am looking at the offerings from PS Audio or high-end Yamaha... I would love to be able to afford a dCD player - but for the amount of time I spend actually listening to disks as a source, I cant really justify the cost of a dCS setup.

for my music interests, i would have maybe 6 or 7 sacd which i would buy on the whole sacd market.  For classical music, there is more choices....    

Well Tempered Versalex 100% 

I have had a CDS3/555PS alongside a middling LP12 and it was 30/70.

Now it’s just vinyl for me. It’s sound quality plus the fact I started buying albums in 1973, and I’m still adding to my collection. Love all the faffing around.

Peter

Nice tread.

When I listen serious its 90% lp12- Armageddon, Aro (new and really, really great), Kore, adikt, Lejonklou Gaio and 10% Ndac fead from- sms200 with a new teddypsu (very good upgrade).

Background listening, which of course is often is 30% vinyl and 70% digital. 

Good luck and cheers to every Liverpool supporters on this forum!

Fred

glevethan posted:

A brief look leads me to come to the conclusion that many of us have invested in extremely expensive playback systems yet there seems to be a large amount of time spent using these expensive systems to listen to low resolution internet radio.  I see many say that a large number of their daytime listening hours are spent this way

guilty as charged!

though for quality over quantity, it's the LP12 every time.

Not entirely happy with my digital or analogue front ends (though for different reasons), but circa:

CD - 90%

Vinyl - 8%

FM - 2 %

Purely a reflection of having MANY more CDs than records - if it was based upon (ultimate) listening pleasure, vinyl would 'win' hands down.

However, for various reasons, I've no interest in modern vinyl (and even less in computer audio).

for ultimate pleasure in listening, vinyl is the winner in this thread!   If all new albums were recorded on vinyl today, with true analog quality, i would listen 100% to music with my turntable and would sell my nds/555dr to get something like vertere or spiral groove with lyra atlas or top air tight cart.

Alba1320 posted:

Not entirely happy with my digital or analogue front ends (though for different reasons), but circa:

CD - 90%

Vinyl - 8%

FM - 2 %

Purely a reflection of having MANY more CDs than records - if it was based upon (ultimate) listening pleasure, vinyl would 'win' hands down.

However, for various reasons, I've no interest in modern vinyl (and even less in computer audio).

Out of interest, why no interest in streaming (=“computer audio”), which can sound better than CD, your front end of which you say you’re not entirely happy with?

Yes.. I couldn’t quite understand that... and further what on earth is ‘computer audio’? It’s sounds like beepy donkey kong computer game sound tracks from the 1980s. If it simply means using a ‘computer’, well even my 552 has a little one of those in it.

I think most of like analogue presentations without or minimum unnatural or grating artefacts... I really invite those who are struggling here to listen to the new generation of electronic DACs which do entirely this. I did and I enjoy my music replay hugely more.. and now sold my TT as it was just not being used..

Now Naim use, on many of their devices,  traditional ladder DACs with relatively modest filter kernel sizes, and they do it to great effect focussing around digital noise mitigation, and analogue filtering and current to voltage creation... and on their latest devices they do fantastically well, however in the limit the reconstruction will be limited by the relatively old technology... so if you find the Naim digital sound fun, but ultimately not quite ‘analogue’ enough for your tastes try listening to sources from elsewhere. I can certainly say Naim NACs and NAPs really enjoy being fed by non Naim analogue digital sources.

You might just find your listening ratio of sources changes somewhat... or not of course....

French Rooster posted:

for ultimate pleasure in listening, vinyl is the winner in this thread!   If all new albums were recorded on vinyl today, with true analog quality, i would listen 100% to music with my turntable and would sell my nds/555dr to get something like vertere or spiral groove with lyra atlas or top air tight cart.

That’s just statistics and inaccurate ones

listen to a chord Hugo and maybe you will have slightly different bias

in my view vinyl is the guest who overstayed their welcome

A good album recorded and mastered in digital on a good dac like chord mojo gives immense musical listening enjoyment 

analogmusic posted:
French Rooster posted:

for ultimate pleasure in listening, vinyl is the winner in this thread!   If all new albums were recorded on vinyl today, with true analog quality, i would listen 100% to music with my turntable and would sell my nds/555dr to get something like vertere or spiral groove with lyra atlas or top air tight cart.

That’s just statistics and inaccurate ones

listen to a chord Hugo and maybe you will have slightly different bias

No statistics mentioned. Simply a person expressing their opinion, so how can you claim it's inaccurate?

And you go on to mention bias ????

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