NaimNet Cheap option
Posted by: Niklas on 07 March 2007
I'm a new member, coming from the world of high bitrate MP3s and active monitors. Listening to my friend's 282/200 & Allae has changed my feeling on how to listen. My system is exact, his has LIFE.
On to the theory. It seems that the new NaimNet amp NNP2 will be around £1000. It has a digital in, so I assume that the DAC resides in the amp as opposed to the Naim Music Server. The fact that the information is supposed to travel digitally from the NaimNet Music Server to the NaimNet amp also supports this.
Now, if I rip my collection into lossless FLAC or similar (on my computer), with EAC for error correction, the information will be complete. The computer then converts FLAC to PCM which goes via LAN to a nifty device called the Squeezebox, which sends it on to the NaimNet amp via optical. In theory, there should be no loss of information, except for possible jitter in the last optical stage.
The Squeezebox is £200, upgrading your computer with an extra 200GB harddrive is £100. I wonder if there is any difference in audio to the NaimNet music servers at ten times that price?
The crucial questions are: do the amps have a DAC, and is it possible to run (and control) the NaimNet amp without a connected Music Server?
Much appreciating your advice and thoughts on this, I'm aching to get my hands on an NNP 2 and a pair of Allaes in order to enjoy the same level of music as my friend, at a third of the price...
Posted on: 07 March 2007 by yeti.fro
quote:
how much space would a 40 minute vinyl album take up if stored at the highest quality
Question is, what you define as highest quality. A FLAC in CD quality needs ca. 250MB for 40mins. Which means in a 500GB system, you could store 2000LPs, not too bad...
BUT there´s also the possibility to go above CD quality, e.g. 24bit/96kHz...
brgds..TC
Posted on: 07 March 2007 by Macker
Just to add to the miix....I have modded an Xbox (not the 360), fitted a 60GB notebook drive (quieter), larger quieter fan and a Digital Coaxial socket.
I store in Apple Lossless format and the xbox is running Xbox Media Center software, it outputs to a 15" LCD computer monitor (wall mounted above my rack). It gives me the current & forecasted weather, RSS feeds and a whole heap of other handy functions. It will play back almost any audio/video/picture format, either from the HDD or streamed from my Network Accessible Storage.
As soon as the supernait is available in NZ I will be getting one, currently I am using a Denon AVR-3600 (yeah I know...)...testing so far on an Arcam AVR-300 + Arcam FMJ CD36 the xbox lossless playback has proved to be so good compared to the original CD running on the Arcam CDP that I would not consider buying a CD player anytime soon.
I have no doubt that there are differences, probably more so when I start running it via a supernait & arivas but I have a feeling that I am going to be more than happy with the result.
Posted on: 07 March 2007 by Guido Fawkes
quote:
Originally posted by yeti.fro:
quote:
how much space would a 40 minute vinyl album take up if stored at the highest quality
Question is, what you define as highest quality. A FLAC in CD quality needs ca. 250MB for 40mins. Which means in a 500GB system, you could store 2000LPs, not too bad...
BUT there´s also the possibility to go above CD quality, e.g. 24bit/96kHz...
brgds..TC
Hi TC
I was thinking 24bit/96kHz - if I had space for 600 or so elpees then that would be good.
Many thanks, Rotf
Posted on: 07 March 2007 by bec143
[/QUOTE]
Thomas,
Have you tried your sb3 with a Benchmark Dac1 streaming uncompressed aiff (wav)? It's very close to a cdx2/xps2/hiline, whereas the Transporter was noticeably inferior!
Keith[/QUOTE]
I have tried Bel Canto Dac2 and two NOD-DACS (Derek Shek and Monica). All different, but none all that great, with my Squeezebox 2. I have heard a Benchmark in other systems, but not at home.
Posted on: 07 March 2007 by Niklas
Bruce: it seems that Squeezebox with lossless sounds worse than CD5. Since lossless should give the same info as the CD to the respective DACs, it is surely the meagre DAC of the Squeezebox that is the culprit. Personally, I'm using an external DAC, fed by optical from the Squeezebox.
David: Wouldn't the Netstream software running on a PC push the files onto the network and onto the NaimNet amp? It would then be bit-perfect at the amp. And you mention that the Naim server would be the best sounding option - would there be a difference in accessing a lossless EAC encoded file from a PC as opposed to a Naim Server encoded file on the Naim server?
Posted on: 07 March 2007 by bec143
As I say, I have tried 3 different external DACS, and none have done the trick. When i added a linear power supply instead of the wallwart, that did make a noticable difference.
Posted on: 07 March 2007 by Keith L
quote:
your statement proves again, that everybody has to listen for himself. IMHO the Benchmark is one of the worst DACs available. Boring, unmusical, uninspired, simply unlistenable. IMHO the DAC in the Transporter beats the Benchmark in absolutely every aspect. I found it even slightly better than the Aqvox DAC.
Hi TC,
Then what's your take on the cdx2/xps2/hiline? I for one like its pace and attack. The BM dac1 has very similar qualities. By comparison the Transporter was totally underwhelming.
Keith
Posted on: 07 March 2007 by yeti.fro
quote:
Then what's your take on the cdx2/xps2/hiline? I for one like its pace and attack. The BM dac1 has very similar qualities.
I can´t comment on the HiLine, because I havent tried it in my home system yet, but I love my CDX2/XPS2 exactly for the same reasons you mentioned. Tonality isn´t that important for me, it´s all about rhythm, timing and power.
The Benchmark for me is playing like a bank clerk. Correct and neutral with a nice but tight tie, simply unemotional and uninvolving. IMHO a CD5i is much more fun.
The fact that we both like the CDX2/XPS2 shows that our taste can´t be that different. I don´t know, maybe it´s the circumstances: mains, music, digital sources, temperature, different sort of wine or beer...
Would be interresting to have a listening session together
Maybe we then would prefer the same DAC
brgds..TC
Posted on: 07 March 2007 by chicago_phile
A little confusing. Here's a product roadmap for a Super-Duper Nait: A Naim DAC with several inputs, outputting analog to a 202/200.
Will NaimNet provide a DAC machine for just that purpose? Maybe that plus a hard drive is the whole idea - but I'm not sure. Don't care about house networking, multichannel, etc. Would like a Naim DAC though and the benefit of separates...
Posted on: 07 March 2007 by David Dever
quote:
Here's a product roadmap for a Super-Duper Nait: A Naim DAC with several inputs, outputting analog to a 202/200.
That's a SUPERNAIT!
Posted on: 07 March 2007 by sonofcolin
quote:
I just can't agree with any of the early reports of unmodded Squeezeboxes being in CDS2 territory.
Agreed, but modified versions are!
Posted on: 07 March 2007 by sonofcolin
quote:
quote:
Here's a product roadmap for a Super-Duper Nait: A Naim DAC with several inputs, outputting analog to a 202/200.
That's a SUPERNAIT!
Lose the power amp section and call it a DAC/pre. Now that's an interesting NAIM product
Posted on: 07 March 2007 by chicago_phile
quote:
Here's a product roadmap for a Super-Duper Nait: A Naim DAC with several inputs, outputting analog to a 202/200.
That's a SUPERNAIT!
Lose the power amp section and call it a DAC/pre. Now that's an interesting NAIM product Winker
Kind of the idea I was toying with sonofcolin, but David, if that's true, then I may well have my product! Just thought one more level of separation of pre/power would bring back a bit of the 202/200 magic which is probably compromised a bit in one box.
But I'm being pretty picky there...
Posted on: 07 March 2007 by PeterZ
quote:
Originally posted by sonofcolin:
Lose the power amp section and call it a DAC/pre. Now that's an interesting NAIM product
Yep, that or just the standalone DAC. Please Naim...
Posted on: 08 March 2007 by Macker
Posted on: 08 March 2007 by Niklas
Interesting article Macker - thanks. Proceeding from that information, it seems CDs and s/pdif should be avoided due to jitter et cetera. Harddisk drives with a large cache would be the way to go.
The question is how to transport it to the DAC and then to the amp. A stand-alone DAC fed via Ethernet or Firewire may be good, then on to the amp.
Having researched more on the NaimNet and Netstreams, it seems obvious that the DAC is in the amp, so that I will only need the sweet little amp, connect it to my LAN hub, and then control the whole thing via the Netstreams interface on a PDA or webtablet. Very elegant, I hope. I'll get back to you with a sitrep in a few months!
Posted on: 08 March 2007 by dan scott
it's frustrating that there aren't any online music stores where you can buy lossless audio. I'd say it would be nice if iTunes offered it but then DRM would just get in the way...
If you didn;t have to rip CD's to get the digital audio, a big part of the problem could be removed.
Posted on: 08 March 2007 by yeti.fro
quote:
it's frustrating that there aren't any online music stores where you can buy lossless audio.
There is at least one, have a look at
Linn Records. You can not only download lossless CD quality, but even higher resolution.
brgds..TC
Posted on: 08 March 2007 by dan scott
Thanks, at least its started somewhere, that's good to know. Now just for the mainstream to get into it and the CD could have increased competition.
Another idea would be for someone to do a "CD-Ripper" transport that would enable people to take high quality rips from a transport designed to minimise jitter etc.
Posted on: 08 March 2007 by yeti.fro
IMHO ripping is just too time consuming. Many people own 1000+ CDs. Imagine how long it would take to rip these...
I really like the idea of Arcus. When you buy their MusicServer, they rip 200 of your CDs for free. Every additional CD is 50 €Cent, which sounds like a fair DRM-free offer.
brgds...TC
Posted on: 08 March 2007 by chicago_phile
All this is really playing havoc with cdp decisions moving up from cd5i. Looks like a 5x with a flatcap2x (which could at the same time power a SuperNait) seems smarter than a cdx2 (or double it's price to put on its power supply). Savings go toward the server!
Posted on: 08 March 2007 by sonofcolin
quote:
Originally posted by yeti.fro:
IMHO ripping is just too time consuming. Many people own 1000+ CDs. Imagine how long it would take to rip these...
It took me 2 days to rip approx 500 CD's. Who says you need to do it in 1 go?
Backup, backup, backup. Mirror RAID set is a must with such valuable data.
Posted on: 08 March 2007 by themrock
Hi, i am running now my system Nait5i and Arivas for about 2 month, with the Cambridge Musikserver and i am very pleased.
Easy to handle and very good sound for my opinion.
Okay the ripping is very time consuming, but when you dont want to make it in 1 step at your PC, the Cambridge can do it simultaniously when you hear a CD.
I think a very good fit for the Cambridge or another MusicServer could be the Supernait,because you dont like the analog Sound of the Server, you can plug the server to the DAC-Entrance of the Supernait, and the sound-quality of the server isnt important anymore.
What i like very much from the Cambridge, that if the integrated 160GB harddisk is full, you can attach up to 2 external Harddisks.
I for myself have ripped my cds (more than 1000) to mp3 256 VBR and only 85 GB of the harddisk is full.
Before i choose 256 mp3 i made a testrun with wav, flac and mp3 256 vbr and i didnt hear any difference, so i choose mp3, because it takes very less space in opposite to the two other types.Wav 27 MB,Flac 18 MB and mp3 5 Mb.
Posted on: 08 March 2007 by Niklas
The DAC is in the amp - I just got a response from Naim. Quote:
"The room amplifiers all have built in DACs. The technology is 24bit with a good sprinkling of true audiophile engineering to give excellent performance.
As to your second point we do not play streams directly from your PC. The music on your PC is located by the Server and is made available for playing in the room amplifier. The room amplifier interface then gives you a lot of control over the playback of that music including 'transport' type functions as well as all the searching etc that you would need to take place in the listening room. The servers also support a PC Interface client, which gives an even greater depth of feedback and control."
Posted on: 08 March 2007 by dan scott
wow, that's a real suprise, very strange way of doing things - still that's what makes it different!
Question - Like me many are looking to integrate something like this into an existing stereo setup (NAC200 in my case)
Do the NS-01 etc boxes have DAC's in them also so they can be connected via Snaic / Lavender / Hi-Line into a Pre-Amp?
