Any experience using AES/EBU with Lavry DA-10?

quote:

Originally posted by goldfinch:
Hi, I would like to know if it is worth buying an audio card for using the AES/EBU input of the Lavry. This is not a cheap upgrade as these sound cards are expensive. I would appreciate any user experience and cable recommendations.

Now I am using coax. digital out.

Using a Lynx AES PCIe Card in a Macbook Pro (with a Magma external PCIe chassis connected to a MacBook Pro with a special high bandwidth data cable), then connected to a Quested pro 3-way active monitor (balanced XLR), sounded really well. Much better (for me at least) then through the SPDIF and Toslink. All cables were Evidence Audio pro cables. Everything powered from an Audience Adept Response aR12 Power Conditioner. This system works very well for all kind of pro D/A. The Lynx AES Card is really good product. The Macbook can not be used this way as there is no card slot, only the Macbook Pro have it.

If you want to build the ultimate PC - based system, the AES PCI/PCIe cards the way to go, much less problems, than USB2 or Firewire interfaces, as the software drivers are integrated to the OS and written on a completely different way. Not cheap however, easily can spend roughly the price of an HDX for a complete system.
I think Naim is using a PCI interface internally in the HDX between the data and the digital audio part.

Thank you Ferenc.

No problem.

Ferenc,

What drivers are needed for this for the Mac and what are you using for playback ?

Thanks

James

Thanks Ferenc, so you don´t use any external DAC?

quote:

Originally posted by goldfinch:
Thanks Ferenc, so you don´t use any external DAC?

No. The AES PCIe board drives the AES input of the DAC. At the moment it is a Mytek 8x192 A/D/D/A, but earlier we tried the Lavry DA10 and other pro audio interfaces as well. Then the 2 channel monitoring output of the mentioned 8 channel pro DAC is connected through XLR Balanced connection directly to the power amp, as there is a precision volume control on the DAC 2 channel output which drives one of our pro amps perfectly well. It would be interesting to try the same config with the balanced pro version of the Naim NAP 250.

quote:

Originally posted by james n:
Ferenc,

What drivers are needed for this for the Mac and what are you using for playback ?

Thanks

James

The drivers provided by the manufacturer are fine, works reliably. This config is mainly used for audio post-production, with the Wave Editor and Bias Peak, but of course work very well with iTunes as well. You can choose this card in the Audio/Midi app as your audio source.

This Lynx AES card is a very interesting animal, as it can drive very long AES cable, so you can have an old G4 or G5 desktop somewhere hidden and remote controlled from a VNC, Apple Remote Desktop or from an iPhone, iPod Touch.
There is one problem however: the card has a special high-density D connectors, so you need to prepare your own cable or to buy one from Lynx, these cables usually very cheap, and the card itself is not really sensitive on the quality of the cable, the I/O is transformer coupled which can help proper grounding and avoiding ground loops. It can be locked to an external clock, but it can use its internal SynchroLock mode for reclocking on the board level as well, from the internal high-precision clock.

Thanks again Ferenc - that's interesting to know. I'm curious though - is it the driver that is making the difference - i thought core audio was designed for pro applications to ensure bit transparency or is it that the Lynx card is providing a higher quality master clock than what the computer itself can provide ?

James

quote:

Originally posted by james n:
Thanks again Ferenc - that's interesting to know. I'm curious though - is it the driver that is making the difference - i thought core audio was designed for pro applications to ensure bit transparency or is it that the Lynx card is providing a higher quality master clock than what the computer itself can provide ?

James

I think this is more complex question, seems quite simple on the surface, but it has few layers of problems.

Some of the audio editing and post-production software manufacturers are using their own audio subsystem, not using fully the Core Audio subsystem. This way they probably can handle the buffering, and hardware I/O, routing, DSP issues more closely and better than the very general purpose Core Audio can. The pros always require minimized latency and as simple buffering as they can. The latency can be minimized only if you have minimized number of buffering stages and minimzed CPU cycles and DSP layers for handling the audio data. This is probably one of the reasons while the wav files can sound better for some than the Apple Lossless or FLAC even if they are exactly the same when are in the computer memory, only their way to the memory is a little bit different.

The clock information can be injected and jitter reduced on several ways and in different positions in the digital audio data chain. There are also several ways how the new clock is generated and injected in the audio stream and all they have different effect on the outputted sound. Even a technically very well thought out reclocking mechanisms can harm the music listening and flow sometimes. So there are no general rules, I think.


Then you have to think of the general effects of switching power supplies and their different noises and pollution on the whole audio system, when you are using a computer and cheaper audio interfaces (firewire and usb connected) in your audio system (you have 99% chance to use a switching power supply).

I do not have a kind of ranking between the different problem layers, I think all of them are equally important.

Given your comments and experience Ferenc, this would certainly explain why Naim went with the HDX as an all in one. One has to assume that what your mentioning is the tip of the iceberg with all of the complexities involved. To really achieve audiophile playback, all factors need to be controlled in a fashion that is reliable and repeatable. Not to mention trying to get the "house sound."

Interesting discussion. Also explains that even if/when Naim release their own DAC these other factors will still be involved to get the best playback. No free lunch as they say.

Funny, patevil and I were discussing this same Magma chassis yesterday on the way home (having used it with portable Pro Tools TDM setups for remote audio editing and production)...the efficacy of these solutions rely upon some variety of PCI/PCIe connection to provide the bandwidth necessary to accurately clock and drive the digital audio output without interruptions or processor stuttering / buffer underflow.

But let's look at the other factors here:

- You cannot use a PCI or PCIe card with a MacBook or Mac mini (no slots or ExpressCard connection), which rules those out

- You cannot use a MacBook Pro, unless you connect an expansion chassis via ExpressCard

which leaves you with a very expensive Mac Pro or MacBook Pro + expansion chassis setup. (For what it's worth, my previous experience with this configuration in the field has been spotty, given the propensity of the Magma expansion chassis to spit out the ocassional PCI bus error in ProTools.)

You could also use a PC with a decent north/south-bridge chipset and processor (Digidesign's recommended PC configurations for ProTools TDM are a useful starting point, but there are others which overlap these), not a $400 cheapy PC from WalMart (or Dixons, other side of the pond), for example.

- Choice of an audio card makes a big difference, as those with less processor overhead are more likely to provide better results, among other factors (including clock design and isolation, ground plane, etc.)

- Computer power supply is also important, as there are a few "audiophile" or low-noise supplies available for high-end OEM applications (again, expensive)

and I haven't even touched the audio player application or ways to bypass the internal OS layer (either OS X Core Audio or Windows kmixer). As js pointed out in other posts, there is also the issue of buffer size to consider, as well as a host of other optimizations.

Suddenly, the HDX starts to look like a very good solution, given what ferenc's setup costs in US $ (let alone local currency there).

quote:

Originally posted by gary1:
Given your comments and experience Ferenc, this would certainly explain why Naim went with the HDX as an all in one. One has to assume that what your mentioning is the tip of the iceberg with all of the complexities involved. To really achieve audiophile playback, all factors need to be controlled in a fashion that is reliable and repeatable. Not to mention trying to get the "house sound."

Interesting discussion. Also explains that even if/when Naim release their own DAC these other factors will still be involved to get the best playback. No free lunch as they say.

Yes I can understand their attitude of course. However one can be quite happy with a simple and affordable package like the Macbook/Lavry or the more affordable MacBook/Konnekt 8 or 6 or dozens other potential combinations.

The external firewire and usb2 audio interfaces provides quite good alternatives, mainly if one thinks of recording from analog sources, like LP, RTR or a tuner using high or even higher than 96k sample rates. Then those even more affordable audio interfaces become very useful. For me regarding the HDX an onboard A/D converter would be more important than a Naim DAC, but it is just me

Ferenc,

I agree with those sentiments. I didn't go with the Wavelab/firewire/K8. While it was enjoyable and really pretty easy to set up you could definitely hear the limitations with 16 bit. Since I don't own a vinyl set-up it really didn't offer me anything since it could not compare to the CD5x/FC2x.

However, if you own a good/great LP set-up and use the K8 for A/D conversion and play that back (24 bit) using the K8 ASIO driver now we're starting to get somewhere. This is what I first heard at PM which let me know what the potential was out there. After the demo this weekend, I know this is the direction Scott is going for now--easy and affordable to convert his LPs.

Now throw in a really good A/D converter like the Nagra and boy does the game improve, esp. with the HC2 PS hooked up to the Nagra.

So yes, I've gone up the ladder and the differences were not subtle.

Now, the HDX-- really elevates the game. Ken hooked up the Nagra with the 282/HC2/250.2 and wow is all I can say. When the HDX/XPS2 was hooked up to this system same reaction. I didn't listen critically to the difference between the two since using the Nagra/Wavelab Pro 6 has no real user interface and is therefore not practical. We went back to the SN/FC2x since this is my current system and same reaction (not as good as the better components, but...). Throw in the HDX UI and it was what I was looking for. The production model did not disappoint and was only 2 days run in.

However, with your sophisticated set-up and technical facility I can see where you have invested time and $$ and where the on-board A/D converter becomes a significant component in your decision making.

David, Ferenc,

Many thanks for that. Just the sort of info i was looking for.

At the moment with the simple option (Mac/ Lavry) we think we've got a pretty good solution which works well. Looks like there is plenty more to come though.

rgds

James

Hi James,

I do not mind when life is complex

quote:

Originally posted by ferenc:
However one can be quite happy with a simple and affordable package like the Macbook/Lavry or the more affordable MacBook/Konnekt 8 or 6 or dozens other potential combinations.

Ferenc

May I also thank you for some of your technical explanations.

As you have posted above, and James N has also posted ("At the moment with the simple option (Mac/ Lavry) we think we've got a pretty good solution which works well") I am looking for something simple so as to dip my feet into the water - nothing too complicated (for serious playback I will use my CDS3/555PS ). As such a simple external DAC with an elegant interface (Apple Remote) is what I am after. As per your quote above - have you listened to the Lavry? Any other external DAC's (ala Lavry) which one should contemplate (obviously subject to your personal taste as every DAC in the market seems to have its own flavor).

Gregg

quote:

Originally posted by gary1:
Ferenc,

I agree with those sentiments. I didn't go with the Wavelab/firewire/K8. While it was enjoyable and really pretty easy to set up you could definitely hear the limitations with 16 bit. Since I don't own a vinyl set-up it really didn't offer me anything since it could not compare to the CD5x/FC2x.

However, if you own a good/great LP set-up and use the K8 for A/D conversion and play that back (24 bit) using the K8 ASIO driver now we're starting to get somewhere. This is what I first heard at PM which let me know what the potential was out there. After the demo this weekend, I know this is the direction Scott is going for now--easy and affordable to convert his LPs.

Now throw in a really good A/D converter like the Nagra and boy does the game improve, esp. with the HC2 PS hooked up to the Nagra.

So yes, I've gone up the ladder and the differences were not subtle.

Now, the HDX-- really elevates the game. Ken hooked up the Nagra with the 282/HC2/250.2 and wow is all I can say. When the HDX/XPS2 was hooked up to this system same reaction. I didn't listen critically to the difference between the two since using the Nagra/Wavelab Pro 6 has no real user interface and is therefore not practical. We went back to the SN/FC2x since this is my current system and same reaction (not as good as the better components, but...). Throw in the HDX UI and it was what I was looking for. The production model did not disappoint and was only 2 days run in.

However, with your sophisticated set-up and technical facility I can see where you have invested time and $$ and where the on-board A/D converter becomes a significant component in your decision making.

What's intersting here is that the HDX will outperform the Nagra PC combo with the same material loaded on a USB connected hard drive. The Nagra is right there if the file is transfered into it's own drive but not as good via Dig in. It's maxed at 120G internally and not designed for media playback. The combo costs as much as an HDX besides. I'll say this and duck. You can hear a difference in USB hard drives with the same files on both. Transfering the files back and forth wont change that. Makes no sense to me either from my understanding of how they operate. Apparently there's much to get right(or wrong) here.

I also think a computer+lavry gives a great level of performance, regardless of what you pay for it. But if you take into account its cost then you have a bigger smile.
In my case, I have a four years old pentium 4 PC that otherwise was going to bin. So, for around 1200 $ (M-audio sound card and Lavry DA-10) the vfm of this music server is simply incredible (add a few more dollars to buy Mediamonkey software.

Sure a reference audiophile computer is much more expensive but upgrades are always at a cost, aren't them?

A new Lynx AES16 is around 450 eur and a high quality fanless pc power supply is about 150-200 Eur. You can buy even a luxury HTPC hifi-like PC case (for instance a silverstone) for 200 Eur. more. Now we have a supposed reference audiophile computer for less than 2000 Eur!

HDX is a very appealing product and performance opinions are being very good. You can upgrade PSU which is very good too, but I have the feeling that hard disk players are mainly based in computers technology and thus its performance level may be conditioned by this.

If this were true, the other key point would be the DAC section. How good is HDX internal DAC?, according to its positioning this should be similar to CDX2 DAC.

Hi Gregg - Regardless of the technical reasons why it shouldn't sound good, the Lavry / Mac route is a very good sounding and elegant solution. My Lavry and (headless) Mac sit on my rack. My music sits on a NAS sited in my study. I run iTunes, use an iPod touch as the interface and its a very elegant and easy to use system. Whilst i'm sure there is more to come (and i have some options to explore thanks to the contributors on this forum) i'm very happy with what it does. I'm playing and buying lots more music so in the end that's what its all about.

Cheers

James

PS - Substitute Mac for PC if required. I went the Mac way as i'm already a mac user and the Mini seemed a great way of having a silent, small music server.

quote:

Originally posted by james n:
Hi Gregg - Regardless of the technical reasons why it shouldn't sound good, the Lavry / Mac route is a very good sounding and elegant solution. My Lavry and (headless) Mac sit on my rack. My music sits on a NAS sited in my study. I run iTunes, use an iPod touch as the interface and its a very elegant and easy to use system. Whilst i'm sure there is more to come (and i have some options to explore thanks to the contributors on this forum) i'm very happy with what it does. I'm playing and buying lots more music so in the end that's what its all about.

Cheers

James

PS - Substitute Mac for PC if required. I went the Mac way as i'm already a mac user and the Mini seemed a great way of having a silent, small music server.

James

Thanks for precise and succinct post - you mirror my thoughts EXACTLY and have put forth all the same compelling reasons which have led me to reach this "conclusion" as the basis for my starting point in my experiments with digital audio playback.

Gregg

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:
I'm slightly intrigued by the use of the firewire interface between the Mac Mini and the Lavry DA-10, as has been suggested by the use of the Konnekt 8. The Konnekt is relatively cheap (in hi-fi terms), I'm wondering whether it's worth investigating.

Any comments?

Actually, I am very intrigued by the use of the firewire interface between the Mac Mini and the Lavry DA-10, specifically, how does the physical configuration work? Would that be:

1) Mac -> firewire -> Konnekt -> Toslink -> Lavry DA10
or
2) Mac -> Toslink -> Konnekt -> Firewire -> Lavry DA10

Either of these options does not seem to make sense to me.

I would be grateful if somebody tells me what I am missing.

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:

quote:

Originally posted by imperialline:
Actually, I am very intrigued by the use of the firewire interface between the Mac Mini and the Lavry DA-10, specifically, how does the physical configuration work? Would that be:

1) Mac -> firewire -> Konnekt -> Toslink -> Lavry DA10
or
2) Mac -> Toslink -> Konnekt -> Firewire -> Lavry DA10

Either of these options does not seem to make sense to me.

I would be grateful if somebody tells me what I am missing.

My understanding is that it is:-
Mac > firewire > Konnekt 8 > dig coax > Lavry DA-10
You have to go with the Konnekt 24(?) to have the option of toslink or dig coax to the Lavry.

Regards
Allen

Thanks Allen for the quick response. But can you make iTunes output digital stream via firewire?

Yes-but do research other player options.

I take it the firewire device will either come with a driver or at least when plugged in will allow you to set it as an output device via core audio.

James

Did some research. Actually, somebody out there has some issues with the Konnekt 8 on the Mac with Core Audio firewire output.

quote:

I've been experiencing problems with my Konnekt 8 Firewire audio interface since I purchased it. I've been getting audio dropouts on my output while recording with GarageBand 4. On top of that, I've been experiencing the odd click noise while recording. After months of reading/posting on TC Electronics forums (and other firewire audio forums), I get the sense that this might not be a audio interface driver issue. It might be an Apple Firewire Core Audio issue. Am I correct? I'm on OSX 10.4.11. I've read mostly leopard users have these audio problems, but is the latest and greatest tiger core audio driver the same as leopards?