HDX magazine review.

quote:

Originally posted by ferenc:

quote:

Originally posted by munch:
kuma,
The Lavry DA-10 with a Mac book comes very very close.

I am very sorry to say, it is not. Not even close to a CDS3 and XPS2. I had a chance to try several high-end audio DACs (Accuphase DC-101, Theta Generation VIII, several dCSs, Meitner, etc) and pro DACs (all the Lavrys, pro dCSs, Weiss, Mytek Digital, Protools, RMEs, TCElectronic, etc) with my Macs and compare them a CDS3/XPS2 and a CDS3/555PS (System: NAP500, NAC552, ProAc Response 4 speakers, Mana tables, Naim cabling and Audience Au24 for the non - Naim goodies) and in this Naim system, none of the Mac/external DAC solutions were comparable. In a non - Naim system you can get different results of course, but if you value the well known Naim values, it would be a bit strange to find the other equipments "better".

As my main job is pro audio and broadcast video system integration and planning, I got a chance not only to try everything I want in the pro world, but to live with them for a while as well.

Did you listen to the LavryDA-10 with a optic lead and the Macbook set up at its best at home in your Naim system?
Sorry you are talking shite.

quote:

A 47Labs Shigaraki DAC at least had a same sort of disposition as a CDX

Hi Kuma

I haven't heard the 47Labs DAC, but isn't it one that doesn't use any filters or oversampling? I'm sure it'll have a unique sound as a result - it would be interesting to hear.

ATB Rotf

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kuma:
ferenc,

that's interesting as well.

When I tried several DACs in the past, that's where I netted out. Upperend DACs inevitably are better than many entry level models, but none of them really sounded like a Naim DAC.
Naim Dac?

quote:

Originally posted by munch:
Did you listen to the LavryDA-10 with a optic lead and the Macbook set up at its best at home in your Naim system?

Munch,

Jesus. You used a Toslink connection?

How bizarre... Toslink never sounded as good as coax on average.

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:
I haven't heard the 47Labs DAC, but isn't it one that doesn't use any filters or oversampling? I'm sure it'll have a unique sound as a result - it would be interesting to hear.

ROTF,

Yep. I think it's a non upsampling DAC.
A lack of some filter however, can cause some problems with non mac music player.

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:

quote:

Originally posted by munch:
Did you listen to the LavryDA-10 with a optic lead and the Macbook set up at its best at home in your Naim system?

Munch,

Jesus. You used a Toslink connection?

How bizarre... Toslink never sounded as good as coax on average.

Hi Kuma

If you have a look at the thread you will see that there are many who are using the above setup with the optic toslink lead. Quite a few respected members of the forum are obtaining significant results with said setup and cables. There comments and feedback have led me to shortly be pursuing the same path (Flashback and toslink already in house ) - as such I will be using their cable recommendations and setup in the hopes of obtaining the same outstanding results. It is a brave new world out there

Regards
Gregg

Cool Gregg.

So, the Lavry/mac via toslink is the official Naim user's 555/HDX replacement.

P.S. Who's the respected members of this Forum?

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:

P.S. Who's the respected members of this Forum?

Kuma

I always hold George, GFFJ, in very high esteem and respect for his insightful postings. I also believe that, based on his longevity, he has heard quite a few of Naims offerings over the many years. If you look at his postings on the Lavry thread you will see that he has "turned the corner" ( ) and has now embraced computer playback.

Regards
Gregg

PS In my particular case the Lavry/Mac is not my official CDS3/555PS replacement - just supplement - to give me the luxury of uncompromised access to some of my collection - and prepare me for the day of ....

Gregg,

You might end up replacing your CDS3/555PS stack, too.

munch says Lavry/mac/toslink is really close to a 555.

I do not want to blame anyone here, but Toslink sucks: Way too much jitter. The only advantage is that you have an electrically isolated connection from Mac/PC to DAC. That is probably why Naim suggests using Toslink with their Supernait, too as far as I remember.

I tried Toslink in comparison to AES digital connection using the same CD drive and DAC. Well, my findings can be read above. It is sounding a little bit like MP 3... So at least I tried it myself and not based on what others heard.

So probably the Mac/Toslink/Lavry people can expect even more using a better connection.

But I stay happily with my production model HDX as it is already amazing and only run in for a good week. Way much better than the pre production models that were around. The HDX is not cheap in abolute terms but regarding its sound quality and its convinience it is great VFM.

AllenB,

Apparently munch isn't.

quote:

Originally posted by John R.:
I do not want to blame anyone here, but Toslink sucks: Way too much jitter.

10 years ago I would have agreed with you. But things have changed somewhat, and the use of improved buffering and local re-clocking of the signal have largely overcome jitter. Add in the much improved construction of optical cables and you have a connection method that is pretty much indistinguishable from coax.

quote:

Originally posted by thesherrif:
[Add in the much improved construction of optical cables and you have a connection method that is pretty much indistinguishable from coax.

That depends on which coax cable you are comparing to.

I had a fair share of coax digital cables in the past, and found that voicing varies depending on the make.

Also, all Toslinks are not the same. Plastic ones were the worst ( a kind that comes free with some entry level DAC ) and glass toslink with a decent termination came on top and those were pretty close in performance compared to *some* but not all coax leads voiced similar.

I see the benefit of running a Toslink if the cable run is long, but ultimately, I found them lacking in dynamics ( particularly in low frequency area ) and overall tonal balance too lean no matter which Toslink I tried for my taste.

Granted, I had far more coax cables than Toslink samples, but I stopped pursuing the Toslink route after about 5 different ones.

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:

munch says Lavry/mac/toslink is really close to a 555.

Maybe he's actually heard the comparison, so is in a reasonable position to offer a view. Along with John (JN), and Tony (tonym) and myself.

This was John's view of the comparison in Tony's 552/500/SL2 active system:

quote:

As a fully paid up member of the Naim flock (insert 'Baaaaa' noises as desired) and owner of absolutely nothing Mac-ish, I think I can give a balanced view on why this forum is 'going all Apple'.

A fellow forum member and friend brought his MacBook and Lavry DA-10 DAC over to another local Naimee with an active 500 system yesterday, for direct comparison with a CD555 (which I also own).

Correctly and optimally ripped and implemented, music off the Mac 'n DAC combo was frighteningly close in sonic performance to the 555 at a tenth of the price.

THAT is why there is currently so much interest here in Mac based sound-servers.

Irksome to some people maybe - but true, on the basis of what I've heard.

John.

None of us that were present would argue with John's assessment.

As for the Toslink, well the Mac digital output has proved to be better than (several) CD transports so far tried - connected by Coax. So I suspect it's yet another cable audio red herring. A quick browse around indicates these are not isolated findings. Get the settings right and the Lavry produces stunning results with a similar voicing to Naim players.

YMMV, of course. But there are increasing numbers with CDS3s that regard the Mac/DAC as better. In my case I have heard it now in three or four systems and results are consistently in favour of the DAC up to CD555 level where it is really close.

You will notice that a number of members (if you read some of the DA threads) have all found the same. Could be we are all deaf, of course.

Best regards,

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by thesherrif:

quote:

Originally posted by John R.:
I do not want to blame anyone here, but Toslink sucks: Way too much jitter.

10 years ago I would have agreed with you. But things have changed somewhat, and the use of improved buffering and local re-clocking of the signal have largely overcome jitter. Add in the much improved construction of optical cables and you have a connection method that is pretty much indistinguishable from coax.

SOME SANITY AT LAST!

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:
That depends on which coax cable you are comparing to.

I had a fair share of coax digital cables in the past, and found that voicing varies depending on the make.

Also, all Toslinks are not the same. Plastic ones were the worst ( a kind that comes free with some entry level DAC ) and glass toslink with a decent termination came on top and those were pretty close in performance compared to *some* but not all coax leads voiced similar.

I see the benefit of running a Toslink if the cable run is long, but ultimately, I found them lacking in dynamics ( particularly in low frequency area ) and overall tonal balance too lean no matter which Toslink I tried for my taste.

Granted, I had far more coax cables than Toslink samples, but I stopped pursuing the Toslink route after about 5 different ones.

If given the choice, I would choose coaxial simply because the connection is more robust. In the end, it depends on the DAC. Certainly in the case of the Lavry DA10 or Benchmark Media DAC1 it shouldn't make any difference theoretically.

Well it's started and I'm not the least bit surprised. With all of the recent praise for the Mac/Lavry combo, finally there is someone who has actually listened it (including the pro-audio model)and reports that he thinks it's not up to snuff and is being criticized for that opinion. Interesting!!

quote:

Originally posted by gary1:
Well it's started and I'm not the least bit surprised. With all of the recent praise for the Mac/Lavry combo, finally there is someone who has actually listened it (including the pro-audio model)and reports that he thinks it's not up to snuff and is being criticized for that opinion. Interesting!!

Who is that? I do not think that Kuma has claimed that she has heard it - yet ( )

quote:

Originally posted by gary1:
Well it's started and I'm not the least bit surprised. With all of the recent praise for the Mac/Lavry combo, finally there is someone who has actually listened it (including the pro-audio model)and reports that he thinks it's not up to snuff and is being criticized for that opinion. Interesting!!

People should be (and are) listening for themselves. You make it sound like it's a relief to you Gary.


Steve

quote:

Originally posted by glevethan:

quote:

Originally posted by gary1:
Well it's started and I'm not the least bit surprised. With all of the recent praise for the Mac/Lavry combo, finally there is someone who has actually listened it (including the pro-audio model)and reports that he thinks it's not up to snuff and is being criticized for that opinion. Interesting!!

Who is that? I do not think that Kuma has claimed that she has heard it - yet ( )

Forenc I assume. I'm writing this on an iTouch, I carry my music and control my iTunes with the same device sounding better than a £15000 555. My Sunday dinner in local pub has just turned up. Now, that's the future. Peter

Dont forget there is a huge advantage to optical over coax -- no earthing issues and no RF interference (either in or out)

quote:

Originally posted by Steve S1:

quote:

Originally posted by gary1:
Well it's started and I'm not the least bit surprised. With all of the recent praise for the Mac/Lavry combo, finally there is someone who has actually listened it (including the pro-audio model)and reports that he thinks it's not up to snuff and is being criticized for that opinion. Interesting!!

People should be (and are) listening for themselves. You make it sound like it's a relief to you Gary.


Steve

Steve, my point is clear. People who've reported less than stellar results with other DAC/computer combo's have been criticized for making comments without having actually listened to the beloved Mac/Lavry. Now someone has auditioned the kit (Ferenc) and it appears fairly extensively at that and says that he thinks it's not up to snuff and from the comments generated thus far it is apparent that the flock that love this combination do not like it when someone else speaks negatively of it. Who's right is certainly someone's personal opinion, but maybe he's onto something.

Gary,

The danger here is that we end up not comparing like with like.

I certainly have no view on what Ferenc has found. I assume he has used a new Intel Mac and the same settings but I don't know. It would help to know we have compared exactly the same things, because mine were the same findings as his until recently. The new Macs seem different.

I never got a PC/DAC to work to my satisfaction either, so perfectly understand your caution. However, you are using emotive words like "flock" to describe people who have listened for themselves and reported their findings. On the other hand, you have not heard this combination at all. But, you have left little doubt as to how you seem to want it to sound.

Your apparent relief at finding someone who might agree with your pre-judgement, merely underlines the impression you have given. Bottom line is - nobody is suggesting you have to agree. But at least do us a favour and listen to it before you tell us it's not for you. You might not have to rely on "people who've reported less than stellar results". Whatever value that is.

Regards,

Steve

Steve, I'm very impressed with your patience mate!

Seems like all of us folk who thought your Macbook/Lavry combination sounded pretty damn near the quality of a 555 got it wrong! Well I never!

I think I can give a fairly unbiased opinion as a 555 owner. The Mac 'n DAC (Lavry) comparison at Tony's place recently was one heck of a surprise to me.

Whilst I thought the 555 sounded better, coming in to the room and not knowing what was playing, I would have guessed that the Mac 'n DAC was the 555.

I have also stated in a related thread that on a blind dem at Steve's place, I preferred the Mac 'n DAC sound over my CDX2.

Assuming that Naim's DAC advances the sound quality further, things will be very interesting indeed.

Irksome though it may be to those of us who have spent a lot of money on top-end CD players, a correctly implemented Mac 'n DAC seems to get bloody close at a fraction of the cost.

John.