Naimnet Now Audible

So if you have an Apple-formatted iPod you're stuffed? Well, that seems a bit pig-headed to me.

In any case, at £3k for the bottom-of-the-range server, it doesn't sound like a particularly attractive proposition to me, regardless of how capable the actual products are.

thank you Signals for clarifying things further, good for you the installation software ran fine in Parallels, would be a pain to use BootCamp everytime.

JonR, somewhere I read a price of $3k rather than £3k, which by today's conversion rates is a massive difference.
The dollar value would represent €2k which is less than a CD5x....

Let the grey importing begin!

quote:

Originally posted by daddycool:
JonR, somewhere I read a price of $3k rather than £3k, which by today's conversion rates is a massive difference.
The dollar value would represent €2k which is less than a CD5x....)

What you may have read and what I actually heard from the Naim rep I have spoken to are obviously two different things then!

JohnR,

yes sorry I stand corrected, I revisited the articles it is indeed £3k and $6k...(so €4.5k ?)

wishful thinking on my part.

quote:

Originally posted by JonR:
In any case, at £3k for the bottom-of-the-range server, it doesn't sound like a particularly attractive proposition to me, regardless of how capable the actual products are.

It sure looks that way in light of the £1k price of the SB+

And there's the SB3 + (insert favorite) DAC route,

the Airport Express + (insert favorite) DAC route,

and any of the above with the Supernait....

As expressed many times on this forum there are interesting times ahead. However, it looks like Naim is set on the upper part of the market in its digital strategy.

quote:

JonR, somewhere I read a price of $3k

No, likely £3K.

This isn't to say that there might not be cheaper products like this down the line–after all, it takes a bit of time to amortize R&D costs across an entire (new!) product range.

Yes that would be a logical explanation.

Do keep us posted on any new developments, David!

I am still a bit confused by the NaimNet product line. Is something like the NS01 akin to the Linn line of DS servers in that I can use it as a digital player in a traditional 2 channel system (connected to an Aux input of my 552?)? The higher up models providing only more (room) outputs?

Gregg

RE: room outputs.

That's my impression of the three basic models. The third also providing a touchscreen on the case itself.

There is also the announced reference version which I believe include a superior DAC and have the hard-drives in a second box to minimize interference.

quote:

Originally posted by glevethan:
I am still a bit confused by the NaimNet product line. Is something like the NS01 akin to the Linn line of DS servers in that I can use it as a digital player in a traditional 2 channel system (connected to an Aux input of my 552?)? The higher up models providing only more (room) outputs?
Gregg

It is the same as far as it plays music from a computer file.

The naimnet player has a built in cd transport to rip the the cd and a built in hard drive. It is a small hard drive but it has one.

The Linn server is a dac that reads music files from your computer or NAS drive. You must rip the Cd on a stand alone transport.

I'm sure there are many more differences.

Deam

quote:

Originally posted by Slabwax:

The naimnet player has a built in cd transport to rip the the cd and a built in hard drive. It is a small hard drive but it has one.

Deam

I do not see the point of the internal CD drive or the internal (small) hard drive. Naim claim that the internal drive and their proprietary software ensure a bit for bit accurate Rip however I have a problem with that. There are too many other software programs out there (EAC-MAX-iTunes just to name a few) which can make perfect rips (in any flavor) - and having an external hard drive (which is upgradeable-repairable-and can be remotely located) seems like a definite advantage (to me).

If the target market is for multi room distribution (which I "think" it is) than I am sure that it offers an elegant solution.

If, however, one is interested in a music server for a two channel system, than there seem to be many more solutions out there which appear to provide equal or superior playback - paraphrased quote from Naim postings "the servers provide playback in between the CD5X-CDX2 level".

I believe (though have not heard with my own ears) that other solutions can equal, and exceed, that level.

So if one is interested in a multi room set up than the NaimNet solution looks like a good one. It does not seem, though, that they have any (present) plans for catering to those of us who are looking for a pure digital music server in a non multiroom situation.

FWIW my own opinion and analysis.

Gregg

Dear Gregg,

I do see the point of an internal HD for some users. For me it is large enough to hold all that I would bother to transfer from CD, and as Music Radio is still my main source, it allows for my own reference recordings to be compactly housed, while letting the Radio continue to provide the good two thirds of my listening as now, but in a neatly compact package to stand beside my tuner.

Of course others may want to archive many thousands of hours' worth of recording, and then off-board HDs become essential, and I cannot see that ever altering, but it is apparently catered for in the Naim scheme ...

George

quote:

I do not see the point of the internal CD drive or the internal (small) hard drive. Naim claim that the internal drive and their proprietary software ensure a bit for bit accurate Rip however I have a problem with that. There are too many other software programs out there (EAC-MAX-iTunes just to name a few) which can make perfect rips (in any flavor) - and having an external hard drive (which is upgradeable-repairable-and can be remotely located) seems like a definite advantage (to me).

If the target market is for multi room distribution (which I "think" it is) than I am sure that it offers an elegant solution.

If, however, one is interested in a music server for a two channel system, than there seem to be many more solutions out there which appear to provide equal or superior playback - paraphrased quote from Naim postings "the servers provide playback in between the CD5X-CDX2 level".

I believe (though have not heard with my own ears) that other solutions can equal, and exceed, that level.

So if one is interested in a multi room set up than the NaimNet solution looks like a good one. It does not seem, though, that they have any (present) plans for catering to those of us who are looking for a pure digital music server in a non multiroom situation.

FWIW my own opinion and analysis.

I think this has been covered in other places on the web, but "perfect rips" using EAC are not guaranteed for every combination of drive mechanism, firmware and operating system–there are whole sections on their support forums addressing these issues.

Nor should this explain the fact that rips sound different between iTunes versions, platforms, etc. when in fact there should be no perceivable delta at all.

This excludes bit-for-bit file comparisons which tell yet another story....

One of the benefits of having both within the same housing (for a machine designed and optimized as a network server), is the ability to get up and running quickly without having to configure network storage or requiring a separate PC to perform the rips. Please note carefully that this does NOT exclude the possibility of adding network storage (with removable drives) or using an external PC or ripping service to perform the rips.

Another benefit of this configuration is the ability to guarantee bit-for-bit reproduction of the source files, from the CD itself all the way to the conversion–locally or remotely. One can optimize the drive firmware to insure that the results are exactly as expected, rather than a crap-shoot of the highest order.

As you have (admittedly) not heard the NS01 in your system context, it is a bit presumptious to pronounce its performance to be sub-par relative to other solutions–but it is not unreasonable to assume that there will be other solutions for hard-disk playback (optimized for local playback vs. network streaming) within the same stable.

I think it is encouraging that NaimNet discussion has not been moved out of the Hi-Fi Corner, to me that means that Naim are firmly of the the belief that NaimNet is a viable Hifi commodity for the future and it's discussion is right where it should be..(for now).

OK, the public expectation of music storage/delivery/purchase has changed drastically in the last couple of years and it would be to their detriment to ignore it and not move ahead with new products.

Although there are many alternatives in digital storage/playback, Naim have a habit of creating synergy within a whole system design. 1+2+1 really does need to add up to 4 and other solutions may add up to 3.9998 - some will be happy with that, others will not.

Once the servers/room amps, etc are widely available, I think people may very well change their views on it's importance to the naim product lineup and it's value as a piece of hifi kit...time will tell.

In the meantime...back to my NS01 and it's stonkingly good musical performance !

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:
Another benefit of this configuration is the ability to guarantee bit-for-bit reproduction of the source files, from the CD itself all the way to the conversion–locally or remotely. One can optimize the drive firmware to insure that the results are exactly as expected, rather than a crap-shoot of the highest order.

That makes sense, much in the way Apple achieves its trouble-free user experience by strictly controlling the hardware side rather than licensing the OS freely.

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:
it is not unreasonable to assume that there will be other solutions for hard-disk playback (optimized for local playback vs. network streaming) within the same stable.

Ah! Looking forward with great interest!
A music server in between the CD5i and CD5x would be great!

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:

Nor should this explain the fact that rips sound different between iTunes versions, platforms, etc. when in fact there should be no perceivable delta at all.

If, as you correctly state, that rips sound different between versions, platforms etc. than can one surmise that a Naim rip will also sound different? If so than which is the "correct" one?

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:
As you have (admittedly) not heard the NS01 in your system context, it is a bit presumptious to pronounce its performance to be sub-par relative to other solutions

I did not pronounce its performance to be sub-par (I have not even had the opportunity to listen one). I simply stated that "other solutions can equal, and exceed, that level". Both yourself, and other Naim employees, have stated - paraphrased quote from Naim postings "the servers provide playback in between the CD5X-CDX2 level". A look at this months cover of Stereophile magazine will show a picture of one such solution (as well as a SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper sister player just released) which appear to provide playback which exceeds the "CD5X-CDX2" levels.


I am looking to dip a toe into the digital waters for "fun". I look forward to "other solutions for hard-disk playback (optimized for local playback vs. network streaming) within the same stable" however I am afraid that my wait might be long. As such I may play around with an inexpensive solution (Squeezebox or Airport Express (both of which I own - however being a Mac faithful I prefer the elegance of the iTunes interface) coupled with an inexpensive DAC such as a Benchmark or Lavry. It appears that others on this forum are doing the same. At least it will provide an incentive to start ripping some of my collection

Gregg

quote:

I did not pronounce its performance to be sub-par (I have not even had the opportunity to listen one). I simply stated that "other solutions can equal, and exceed, that level". Both yourself, and other Naim employees, have stated - paraphrased quote from Naim postings "the servers provide playback in between the CD5X-CDX2 level". A look at this months cover of Stereophile magazine will show a picture of one such solution (as well as a SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper sister player just released) which appear to provide playback which exceeds the "CD5X-CDX2" levels.

But have you done ANY comparative listening, or are you merely guessing?

Look–it's not that, at some level, most might agree that the manner in which people will listen to music in ten years' time will be radically different than the present–but we should be careful to observe all parameters of performance, including the user interface, expandability, and, most especially, actual musical performance.

One of the most egregious errors I've seen (and this may very well include the review mentioned above) is the absence of true apples-to-apples comparisons, at the same bit-depth and sample rate (say, 44.1kHz / 16-bit)–that is, can one live with the performance from the majority of available software? Or are the purported benefits only available from higher-res files (sourced from a more limited range of labels) where expectations for the absolute level of performance can be relaxed (or confused)?

Oddly enough, it seems that we are, as an industry, right back where we started with DVD-A and SACD–no one could engineer a universal player that sounded as good with CD-quality source material as existing, purpose-built CD players–which implies that we (as an industry) have NOT resolved the fundamental issues with digital audio playback that exist, regardless of sample-rate / bit-depth or media type (optical discs, hard disks, solid-state storage, streamed protocols)–or, that the real parting of waters, between those designers that understand the challenges and those that haven't fully grasped it yet, has not yet taken place.

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:

But have you done ANY comparative listening, or are you merely guessing?

Just doing my reading as it has not yet been possible to actually listen to the NaimNet products, or their competitors, at any dealer.

Gregg

I really hope to put the deficit on audibility right over the next month on this. If the quality is in the CD5x region, I shall have absolutely no problems enjoying the result!

George

quote:

most might agree that the manner in which people will listen to music in ten years' time will be radically different than the present

Yes, we might we buying brand new vinyl and listening to it on turntables. Predictions of the future have a happy habit of being unfulfilled....

...provided that petrochemical-based media is still around in ten years' time!

Isn't Shellac made from beetles or something? Sounds quite green, really

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:
Oddly enough, it seems that we are, as an industry, right back where we started with DVD-A and SACD–no one could engineer a universal player that sounded as good with CD-quality source material as existing, purpose-built CD players–which implies that we (as an industry) have NOT resolved the fundamental issues with digital audio playback that exist, regardless of sample-rate / bit-depth or media type (optical discs, hard disks, solid-state storage, streamed protocols)–or, that the real parting of waters, between those designers that understand the challenges and those that haven't fully grasped it yet, has not yet taken place.

Now that is a truly intesting statement!

After over 25 years of CDs and much longer of digital recording, the more recent convergence between computer and hifi technology provides new grounds for everyone.

I remember a long ago post by JV where he explained that just the fact that digital stands for using 0s and 1s somewhere in the process doesn't mean that all things are equal.
He referred to CD players of course, but the digital domain in general is surprisingly still a non-mature technology.

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:
at the same bit-depth and sample rate (say, 44.1kHz / 16-bit)–that is, can one live with the performance from the majority of available software? Or are the purported benefits only available from higher-res files (sourced from a more limited range of labels) where expectations for the absolute level of performance can be relaxed (or confused)?

The above mentioned point referring to currently available software vs. higher res files is an extremely valid one. I have read the above mentioned review in Stereophile several times over and in fact the mentioned unit (Klimax DS) truly shines (according to the author) when fed higher bit FLAC files ("hi res"). Unfortunately, at present, there is little to no availability of said files. Who knows if there ever will be - consumers seem willing to settle for compressed MP3's at the moment.

Perhaps this could be a new source of revenue for the recording industry - re-releasing everything (again!) as higher res 24 bit downloads. They attempted to do this with SACD and DVD audio discs (unsuccessfully) so maybe the second or third time around will be the charmer.

Unfortunately I do not think that this will be happening anytime soon as it is one thing to release compressed MP3's stripped of DRM restrictions - and another releasing hi res studio master files sans DRM. Talk about file trading those babies!



Gregg

quote:

So if you have an Apple-formatted iPod you're stuffed? Well, that seems a bit pig-headed to me.

Can't help thinking that the iPod angle is a bit of a red herring. If you have your (own) Mac formatted Pod, then you have iTunes running on the computer and the Naimnet can read the files directly via ethernet. You might want to play music from a visitor's iPod, in which case it needs to be PC formatted.

If you want to take advantage of the NS01 becoming an itunes replacement, syncing music and using the 'ghost' MP3 files that it produces automatically, than the iPod is not going to be used with Mac based itunes anyway.

Sure, it's not quite a perfect situation, but not all that bad either. As for the price, it was hardly not going to cost more than the CD5X that it betters sonically. We are still awaiting our new demo CDX2 to find out by how much it is outclassed by the same-price CD player.

I'm beginning to feel sympathy for the Naimnet team. Oh stuff that, it is late, and they get a Bentley to pose in.

A