Labour Party Conference

Plus ça change...

JC has promised 400,000 new green jobs,  .......  err ???   where are we going to find 400,000 new workers from ???   Oh I know,  import some more immigrants.

Listen it’s easy to scoff but we’re at a point where some quite creative solutions are needed and good or bad at least Labour are trying. 

Tory reactive politics that resemble a very fast game of squash were one player the Tory isn’t very good are not helping. 

I don’t pretend to know the answer but I do know it should be something quite radical because as a country we’ve been involved in the game of political chess for far too long. 

I hope Diane Abbott didn't do the sums 

I don't mind a change if it is lead by a honest, responsible and capable leader who is able to pursuade the borderline voters and is transparent accordingly to his or her past.  At present there is no one like that for me.

Bob the Builder posted:

Listen it’s easy to scoff but we’re at a point where some quite creative solutions are needed and good or bad at least Labour are trying. 

 

Yes, they are. Very.  Just because they are different (in some ways, anyway) from the Tories doesn't in itself mean they are better.  Trump, for instance, is different.

But Labour's solutions are not new or creative - they are basically "go back to how they were before" - and I for one didn't think they worked then, and I don't see why they should work now.

not that the Tories seem to have any solutions either.  

It’s a revolution they’re after, we should all be very concerned by the volume of rhetoric and lack of substance.

As the point above, different is not always better and in fact could be very much worse.

Labour, particularly McDonnell and Monentum, currently scare me and policy seems to be led by a reIatively small number of people with loud voices and big sticks. I also dislike not having a credible opposition, there is more to that role than simply opposing everything.

If we did have an election now I really could not bring myself to vote Labour. I don’t know how I would vote but it wouldn’t be for the party in its current state and policies.

Company share ownership seems to be a very good thing, and one adopted more widely in other countries. The current proposal needs more thought, both to not be simply a way of taxing the companies, and to ensure that companies don’t simply recoup the £500s by cutting wages or pensions. 

Let’s see what the Tories come up with next week before being too critical of Labour. I suspect the answer will be more of the same, a country where inequality increases further while our great public services fall apart. 

hungryhalibut posted:

Company share ownership seems to be a very good thing, and one adopted more widely in other countries. The current proposal needs more thought, both to not be simply a way of taxing the companies, and to ensure that companies don’t simply recoup the £500s by cutting wages or pensions. 

Let’s see what the Tories come up with next week before being too critical of Labour. I suspect the answer will be more of the same, a country where inequality increases further while our great public services fall apart. 

This is going to be negative but I think it simply hasn't been thought out properly. Lets look at one very good example of a company which already shares out its profits to staff, or as it calls them - "Partners". I am of course referring to John Lewis. JL's profits have all been wiped out for the last 6 months, so this sort of "employee share scheme" only really works if a company is profitable. Secondly, handing ownership over to employees is hardly going to to incentivise investment from existing shareholders into the company. Thirdly and generally speaking, these contributions are generally provided to aid future investment, growth and add to employee pension pots. Are employees going to leave their money in or take it out as bonuses?

IMHO if Labour want to help workers I'd prefer to see an overhaul of the Dividend rules for company Directors and extra protection for pension funds. They could also do more to regulate zero hours contracts which is something they not only seem to have brushed under the carpet but by all accounts actually use them to employ staff.

Just my 2 penneth of course

I'm hoping to hear that managers will no longer be rewarded for failure.

Jonners posted:

I hope Diane Abbott didn't do the sums 

really! That is old.

IME, the only form of employee ownership that actually works is actual ownership. All employees should be given very low cost options to purchase shares. Also, the options should become vested over time. In this way, everyone has a financial interest in helping the company to grow and succeed over time.

It’s called sharesave and already is offered by most large UK firms to employees with good discounts too.

Have just seen some highlights of JC today.

I can’t help recalling:

‘He’s not The Messiah. He’s a very naughty boy!’

I really must be missing something...

JamieWednesday posted:

Have just seen some highlights of JC today.

I can’t help recalling:

‘He’s not The Messiah. He’s a very naughty boy!’

I really must be missing something...

Well, judging by the reception he got from the "Party Faithful", I think JC's "Messiah" status has come and gone. "polite applause" is probably the best term to describe it.

It might be because people remember what happened after the manifesto launch last year where a number of other voter-pleasing policies were announced, such as free student tuition and the writing off of all student debt which he then had to backtrack on after finding out how much it cost. Then there's been the whole anti-semitism thing which has exposed a rather nasty underside to the Labour Party which he simply couldn't resolve and has dogged the party for much of this year.

I reckon this is all very carefully orchestrated. Get a mandate to demand a General Election off the back of a vote on how we leave the EU (he must be confident Members want a re-run), and then dangle some tasty policies to woo in new voters to increase his vote and et voila, he's Prime Minister.

"I think JC's "Messiah" status has come and gone"

Quite.

I can't say that Corbyn or most of his front-bench carry much credibility for me, nor do most of the policy announcements they have made.  That said, I do believe that Corbyn is a man of principle and behaves with good manners. He comes across as authentic so I can see why he is popular, not that I'm suggesting that those qualities are sufficient to make a competent prime minister.

That said, I think the huge advantage that Corbyn and Labour have at the moment is the poverty of the Conservative party. In a nutshell, most people are fed up with ten years of austerity in which they've seen the rich getting richer, their incomes squeezed and public services deteriorating; and the Conservatives are offering no new ideas. Plus, they are openly fighting among themselves and are making a complete horlicks of Brexit, thus eroding their reputation for 'competence'.  Is it any wonder that many people are attracted to Labour's 'new ideas'?

 Rather as we've seen across the Atlantic, when large numbers of people get fed-up with years of 'more-of-the-same' they can be attracted to something/someone who offers a different approach. 

MDS posted:

I can't say that Corbyn or most of his front-bench carry much credibility for me, nor do most of the policy announcements they have made.  That said, I do believe that Corbyn is a man of principle and behaves with good manners. He comes across as authentic so I can see why he is popular, not that I'm suggesting that those qualities are sufficient to make a competent prime minister.

That said, I think the huge advantage that Corbyn and Labour have at the moment is the poverty of the Conservative party. In a nutshell, most people are fed up with ten years of austerity in which they've seen the rich getting richer, their incomes squeezed and public services deteriorating; and the Conservatives are offering no new ideas. Plus, they are openly fighting among themselves and are making a complete horlicks of Brexit, thus eroding their reputation for 'competence'.  Is it any wonder that many people are attracted to Labour's 'new ideas'?

 Rather as we've seen across the Atlantic, when large numbers of people get fed-up with years of 'more-of-the-same' they can be attracted to something/someone who offers a different approach. 

I don't know if things are that bad in the UK, well according to statistics anyway. Wage growth is the highest in two and a half years and unemployment is sub 4.5%, according to the FT.

No doubting the Tories have had a mare of a time but everything MDS says about the Tories could be levelled at Labour too. The "different approach" referred to was borne out I think in the Brexit vote and UKIP's rise to prominence in the General Election but one. In other words, a kick in the gonads for the establishment and that means Labour along with the Tories and LibDems.

Christopher_M posted:

I'm hoping to hear that managers will no longer be rewarded for failure.

And next week too.

I listened to part of his speech on Radio 5. I got the impression the audience response was more than polite. But I suppose it’s up to the broadcaster to decide how loud the audience is in the mix.

I was surprised by Corbyns robust condemnation of Israel. Considereing he’s been at the wrong end of an anti-Semitic witch hunt over the last few months, that took balls.

When Corbyn does become prime minister, remaining in the EU will be essential. I can’t see him negotiating a trade deal with Trump or vice versa. Lets hope he becomes less principled, more pragmatic and cancels brexit.

Politics in the UK is certainly in a state of flux.

My gut feeling is that support for Socialism has a ceiling amongst the electorate which is insufficient to get a majority at a General Election. I also think that under the intense pressure and microscope of a GE campaign that Corbyn will fall apart.

For the Tories, I think that TM is a pragmatist who will eventually pull off the kind of soft Brexit she is attempting and once it is done and the dust settled,  she will then make way for a more inspirational and charismatic leader of the Conservatives ahead of the GE which will help secure another Tory victory.

If Labour had used their time in Opposition more wisely and had a centralist leader rather than a champagne socialist, then they would very likely win the next GE. 

Ray

Being against Israel's apartheid regime isn't being anti semitic it's being anti apartheid,  Jeremy Corbyn maybe a lot of things but he is not a racist.

Well the Jewish community in the UK certainly feel that The Labour Party has been/is anti Semitic.

thebigfredc posted:

For the Tories, I think that TM is a pragmatist who will eventually pull off the kind of soft Brexit she is attempting and once it is done and the dust settled,  she will then make way for a more inspirational and charismatic leader of the Conservatives ahead of the GE which will help secure another Tory victory.

 

I’m not sure who they prefer in the short term. I suspect the medium to long term goal is wait until Ruth Davidson has had a chance to nurture her new baby for a bit, find her a UK seat to sit as an MP, give her a couple of years in UK Parliament and then move her in!

In the meantime Labour need to move in the now more mature and experienced Tom Watson to give them a real chance of not only winning power but keeping it for a bit. I suspect he would continue to fight internal battles however.

Bob the Builder posted:

Being against Israel's apartheid regime isn't being anti semitic it's being anti apartheid,  Jeremy Corbyn maybe a lot of things but he is not a racist.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

I agree in the broadest sense but let's face it, JC's made a complete hash of trying to prove he's not. I'm not Jewish but I found Labour's need to examine and reinterpret the IHRA's definition of anti-semitism to be needless, arrogant and a barely-concealed attempt to get anti-Semites off the hook.