Tidal

Some of them are "master" quality ie. MQA. Cant tell though with the Naim streamer and app.since it can't "unfold" the MQA. Not sure it makes a difference which you choose though. Others will chime in  I'm sure

After a year swearing by Tidal, I moved to Qobuz, oh wow so much better and now a monthly plan.

Yes a pain as not native Naim, but the plus side is to workaround this you never well rarely have to use the Naim app.

Some are remastered, some are Tidal masters denoted by the M symbol, some are just different versions/release dates. You really need to look inside the album info to find out, also some may be reissues with additional tracks etc.

Tidal’s catalogue has always been a bit of a shambles, and duplicated artists, albums and tracks are common. Sometimes there are 3, 4 or more versions of the same album with no easily discernible difference. 

MQA albums are not marked as such on devices that don’t support MQA, including Naim streamers and the Tidal iOS app. If you want to identify them, go to the Tidal desktop app and save them as favourites. 

All of the other streaming services I’ve tried were better to use than Tidal, but none except Qobuz are lossless. 

For my purpose Tidal works. However I acknowledge that they have some issues with the organization of the collection. For me the tight integration to the Naim app is a great plus.

I'd like to propose this as an enhancement to the Naim app - display some info regarding the albums in the lists shown through Tidal.

Where album info is available on Tidal, you can still see this on the Naim app. Swipe the album art to the L to open the ‘description’. It’s similar to a Rovi review, plus some info on release date, etc. 

In Roon, the CD and MQA versions are clearly indicated by a little logo... I like that feature, which is not available on Naim afaik. (The “description” tab doesn’t tell you this either)

Regards alan

Lumin and mconnectHD apps also both identify MQA versions using the MQA logo. Indeed they both have options that allow you to browse the entire Tidal MQA Masters library.

This won't be of interest to the OP because you have a Naim streamer, but just in case anyone is experimenting with MQA - strangely, although the Lumin app correctly identifies Tidal MQA Masters, only a subset of the masters appear to be presented to my MQA enabled DAC in a bit perfect way that enables MQA unfolding when I use the Lumin app. I have no idea why this should be the case. By contrast all Tidal MQA Masters selected via the mconnectHD app play correctly and are fully unfolded by my MQA enabled DAC.  This may be related to Tidal in some way that I don't understand, because the (very) small selection of MQA albums I have on my NAS all play (and unfold) correctly via each of the Linn Kazoo, Lumin and mconnectHD apps.  

jsaudio posted:

Some of them are "master" quality ie. MQA. Cant tell though with the Naim streamer and app.since it can't "unfold" the MQA. Not sure it makes a difference which you choose though. Others will chime in  I'm sure

Although I have been doing quite a bit of testing of MQA Masters on Tidal, one thing that I haven't compared (just too much time involved to cover all aspects of MQA, and life is too short) is whether or not MQA mastered files on Tidal sound as good as their standard equivalents when played via a non MQA enabled DAC (such as that in the Naim streamers). I have been struck by just how tiny (high res) MQA files are (prior to unfolding, and compared with standard CD quality files let alone standard hi-def equivalents) and I can't help thinking that 'something' must be 'lost' when an MQA file is played on a non MQA enabled DAC.

It would be interesting to find out from a Naim DAC or streamer user if there is indeed a 'difference'. It would be a bit of a bind to test, because In order to test, you would probably have to use an IOS app such as Lumin (free) or mconnectHD (around £6 from the IOS app store) to identify the MQA and non MQA versions of albums, create a playlist for the test and use this playlist with your Naim app.   

You can identify MQA material on the Tidal desktop app and save it as a ‘favourite’, which you can then find in the Naim app, so comparisons on a Naim streamer are quite simple to set up. 

Roon identifies Mqa in tidal with the logo on the album art...but mqa through my nova doesn’t sound right compared to flac. The treble is spitty and it lacks depth.

hifi-dog posted:

Roon identifies Mqa in tidal with the logo on the album art...but mqa through my nova doesn’t sound right compared to flac. The treble is spitty and it lacks depth.

That's definitely not what I would expect. During my period of testing, I have listened to a just a very small number of MQA tracks on a non MQA enabled DAC. My impression was that the tracks sounded a little 'dull' (quite the reverse of spitty treble) and a little bit like quite a lot of reasonably good MP3 versions of albums on say Spotify. Of course, you will probably be listening to the first unfold if using Roon, so that's a little different. My overriding impression with MQA files of music (full MQA unfold) I know and like & that I can compare to standard quality files is that the difference is quite similar to the difference I often hear between CD quality and standard hi-res versions of albums/tracks form my local NAS. Not so much 'lots of extra detail', but rather a more subtle, effortless and less fatiguing sound.

The main problem I have with Tidal and MQA is that while there are currently a reasonable number of albums in total in the Tidal MQA Masters section, most of them are by artists or in genres in which I have no interest in whatsoever, and some of these albums can sound pretty terrible (and harsh ) to my ears. Most of the albums in the MQA Master section that are more to my taste do sound pretty good through my MQA enabled DAC, and virtually all of the classical albums in the Masters section sound pretty good. When listening to any of these albums on my Brooklyn+ DAC I will always choose to play the MQA version if I have a choice.

The other problem I have with Tidal MQA Masters is that, good though my Brooklyn+ and Chord Hugo DACS are, they are just not as good as my Linn Klimax DS/1 which will never be MQA enabled (or for that matter DSD enabled). I would almost certainly prefer to listen to just about any non MQA version of an album on the Klimax DS/1 rather than the MQA or DSD version of that album on my Brooklyn+ or Hugo (in the case of DSD) on my main system. However, MQA Masters or DSD albums via the Brooklyn+ DAC turn out to be a pretty good (just not absolutely essential) option on my second system though. 

I’ve nit heard the unfold of mqa so maybe it is the limitation of the dac in the nova. Either way I try and play the flac version where possible..

Thanks for all the replies.  Think i'll stick with tidal for the minute whilst i get used to streaming!  The main issue i have is that the Tidal version of Aerial by Kate Bush has two versions of disc 1, and no disc 2!  Sacrilege! 

I have done 3 months trial and have slowly discovered more bits of Tidal that have good music - though there are large gaps. Am now paying for subsciption and also going to test Qobuz.

Prompted by HMack's question/comments, I just listened to Ole by Coltrane on Tidal in 3 different versions (Master and HiFi quality i.e. MQA and non-MQA lossless files). I also compared Led Zeppelin II Master vs HiFi versions both in their 'Deluxe' edition (whatever that is?).

There were no noticeable differences to my ears at medium and high volumes via my 272.

The same comparison using my ASUS cheap PC into a little Elegiant plug in desktop sound bar also sounded exactly the same.

HMack points out that the Naim streamers are not MQA enabled so this is probably why there is no apparent difference.

All the above files are listed on the Naim app (if you click on the sleeve art icon) as FLAC 44.1 kHz - whether they are MQA or non-MQA. In fact all tracks I've ever done this for are listed with the same description: FLAC 44.1 kHz.

Chris - do you find the same thing?

Rich - I also have a CD5i which is now redundent. What is the italic version? Are there other versions? How did you sell yours?

Jim

The italic was just a slightly updated version of the 5i i believe, you might also see it referred to as a cd5i-2.  I am sure someone else has more knowledge of the model development of that player.

I traded mine in with my dealer when i bought the ND5 XS2.  

JIMDOG posted:

"All the above files are listed on the Naim app (if you click on the sleeve art icon) as FLAC 44.1 kHz - whether they are MQA or non-MQA. In fact all tracks I've ever done this for are listed with the same description: FLAC 44.1 kHz."

Although the albums are all listed as FLAC 44.1 kHz, the source quality of the Tidal MQA Masters varies from album to album. However, you can only see the actual resolution if you use an MQA capable app such as mConnectHD or (I assume) Roon, or use an MQA enabled DAC to unfold the files. Some fairly random examples are:

"Led Zeppelin II" - Led Zeppelin (24bit, 96 kHz)

"The Prophet Speaks" - Van Morrison (24 bit, 96kHz)

"Other People's Stuff" - John Mellencamp (24 bit, 96kHz)

"One Night Only" - Gregory Porter (24 bit, 48kHz)

"White Album" - Beatles (24 bit, 96kHz)

"Negative "Capability" - Marianne Faithfull (24 bit, 44.1kHz)

"Here if you listen" - David Crosby (24 bit, 88.2kHz)

"Bach Violin Concertos" - Shunske Sato (24 bit, 176,4 kHz)

"Road to Ruin" - Ramones (24 bit, 192kHz)

"Ujamaa" - Trondheim Symphony Orchestra (24 bit, 352.8kHz)

This last album, although not my particular cup of tea is interesting because of the exceptionally high sampling frequency which claims to be much higher than the norm for hi-res files.  I'm not an expert on hi-res music files, so I have no idea if sampling rates as high as this can potentially be of any real benefit, but the female vocals and solo instruments on this album do sound pretty good to my ears.

Interesting to hear that you don't notice any loss of quality when playing the MQA albums (without MQA unfolding) and comparing with the non MQA files. 

Thanks Hmack - all very useful info for me. I had not properly understood that all Naim streamers cannot unfold MQA. I also had not imagined that MQA might sound worse than non-MQA on my 272 because it might be overly compressed or not unfolded (or transcoded?) properly by the streamer.

I'll look out for whether Tidal Masters files sound worse than other ones.

I suppose I'll have to live without MQA, as you will have to live without your best streamer playing MQA files.

(Perhaps this explains part of the reason why so many Naim users move to Qobuz as they cannot make the most of the Tidal MQA files? As well as the better selection of orchestal music on Qobuz. I would expect Naim to add MQA capability to their streaming platform at some point, unless MQA disappears or is superceded by yet another format - which also seems likely).

I wonder whether the digital music market will ever settle down into a technological plateau or period of stability? Or will it keep evolving at this speed for long?

To me, Tidal sounds excellent - much better than my CD or TT.

But will the 272 gradually (or suddenly) become obsolete if it cannot play the best sound files (which is already the case as regards MQA)?

I am pretty convinced now that I should rip my CDs to a good quality NAS like a QNAP (and sell the CD player). Do you think that will sound better than Tidal?

I am at one with my inability to have the very best reproduction that is available.

Last weekend 'Freebird' came on the Sony kitchen radio. I turned it up to volume 29. My wife and 9 year-old daughter came in, and we danced and sang for the entire song. In the end, SQ isn't everything.

When I tested Tidal against standard CD quality rips streamed to my 272 from the Qnap, the latter was significantly better. In fact Tidal sounded so ropey I haven’t bothered with it again. Qobuz streamed from the Qnap with Bubble sounds much better than Tidal fed directly to the 272, and this may also be the case with Tidal with Bubble, but I’ve not tried it. 

Nigel, do you think that's generally the case with most users - that they find Qobuz streamed from a Qnap with Bubble sounds much better than Tidal fed directly to the 272?

Is that a 272 thing, or is Qobuz better than Tidal for streamers/DACs generally?

Is there a likely technical (e.g. transmission or coding) reason - or is it just that Qobuz generally have better recordings?

One other thing - do you think CDs will become increasingly unwanted over the next few years, so that excellent CDs 2nd hand players will become much more affordable - or is that already happening?

There are technical reasons, because Bubble acts as a UPnP proxy, so to all intents and purposes it should be the same as streaming your own locally stored music from the Qnap. So it may well be that Tidal works in the same way. Quite a few people on here have found that using Bubble sounds better. Others will be able to explain in detail, but I don’t really understand any more than I’ve written here. But whatever, I’d get your CDs ripped and the CD player rehomed. The fewer boxes the better. 

JIMDOG posted:

"But will the 272 gradually (or suddenly) become obsolete if it cannot play the best sound files (which is already the case as regards MQA)?"

I don't think you need to worry about the 272 becoming obsolete (other than that a newer version may be released by Naim). I think it is unlikely that MQA will take over the market, and even if it does it won't be a huge deal. You will still be able to play albums in CD quality from Tidal. The 272 will be able to play any hi-res music files that you might buy to put onto your NAS in the foreseeable future. 

"I am pretty convinced now that I should rip my CDs to a good quality NAS like a QNAP (and sell the CD player). Do you think that will sound better than Tidal?"

A very good idea, especially if you think that Tidal sounds better than CDs via your CD player. Get a decent QNAP or Synology NAS (with WD Red disks), install either minimserver (Synology) or Asset (QNAP) - installation packages will come with the NAS - and rip your CDs to the NAS using dbPoweramp. Some people on this forum say that their locally ripped CDs sound better than the Tidal equivalents. My take would be subtly different. I would suggest that if you were to rip your CDs onto a NAS (QNAP or Synology) running minimserver or Asset, then they would sound at least as good as the Tidal equivalents.