HDX is here - GFFJ your prayers answered.

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:
but then you need a back up drive in case of HD failure.

I believe the HDX has two hard drives which are mirrored.

For me VFM will come down to how good it sounds.

From memory when the CDS1 first arrived I thought 'how much?!'; but when I listened to it my incredulity evaporated.

I will be looking for:

a) Sound Quality;
b) Easy upgrade of internal HDD (inc max size supported)
c) What internal OS is used (Linux will add brownie points for me!)
d) What formats can the CDs be ripped to;
e) Easy interoperability with other equipment, to get files onto and off other devices.

From what I've read I believe the HDX runs at a mx of 96KHz / 24bit, I will hope that is 192KHz / 24bit -- or an easy, cost effective upgrade path to this.

Wouldn't it be nice if this product could miraculously access material on CD / SACD / DVDA / Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. I know this isn't possible for a plethora of reasons - but it would then feel like a solution to the 'standards' soup!

I do find the alternate Linn / Naim approaches interesting, where I believe the former has opted to leave the ripping and storage of music to the customer, and the latter is trying to deliver an end-to-end solution; both seem to me to have a mixture of benefits and issues.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr Underhill:

I believe the HDX has two hard drives which are mirrored.

That's cool. But then, the actual storage space would be 200GB each?

quote:

For me VFM will come down to how good it sounds.

Agreed.
With an ability to add on an external supply, the performance should get pretty good. Maybe equivalent to a CDS3 level.

quote:

From what I've read I believe the HDX runs at a mx of 96KHz / 24bit, I will hope that is 192KHz / 24bit -- or an easy, cost effective upgrade path to this.

Maybe Naim will implement a good sounding 192/24 player. So far, it's pretty round-earth to my ears. ( which is not a bad thing for some listeners, but not for me aside the fact from very limited music catalogue available )

quote:

Wouldn't it be nice if this product could miraculously access material on CD / SACD / DVDA / Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. I know this isn't possible for a plethora of reasons - but it would then feel like a solution to the 'standards' soup!

Well, I am leery of a Jack-fo-all-trade device usually. Because so far that sort of thing ends up doing nothing outstanding.

quote:

I do find the alternate Linn / Naim approaches interesting, where I believe the former has opted to leave the ripping and storage of music to the customer, and the latter is trying to deliver an end-to-end solution; both seem to me to have a mixture of benefits and issues.

I prefer Naim's approach.

Back when I was ripping all my CDs, I realised that how the files are ripped made a huge difference. My geek friends tried different settings and they all had their favourites. ( good to unbelievably bad from the same CD )

The fact that Naim did the home work and figured out the right setting saves me time and leave me more time to listen rather than endlessly futzing with the hardware.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Underhill:

I believe the HDX has two hard drives which are mirrored.

That's cool. But then, the actual storage space would be 200GB each?

Kuma,

mirrored drives are mirror image so drive capacity is the same (400 = 400)

As for HDX until we get the detailed spec sheet there are many questions....at this point the NaimNet website really needs to be upgraded.

As for all of Greg's questions I'm there with you - no Mac support = minimal interest for me.

I'm with AllenB as far as HD size is concerned. 400gig is a joke given the minimal price difference at wholesale for 750gig or 1 Terabyte. This makes no sense to me, especially at what US retail will be. Oh yeah, the "just use NAS or add an external drive " is not a good answer.

Also waiting for NaimUSA to discuss the recommended voltage regulation/UPS choices (ie Furman, Panamax, APC) for the HDX - imo and experience an absolute requirement for any AV device that has internal hard drives. Ask any custome installer these days if they will sell a DVR or music server without REALLY stressing to their customer the necessity for such protection.

I'm also very interested in the ambient noise level of the HDX.

To get back to US retail - at $9000 or so (less Hiline, Powerline or add on power supply upgrade) I would consider other solutions to integrate hard disk based music with my Naim systems.

For example I can buy a Mac Pro tower (two 2.8GHz Intel Xeon - 8 core / 4 gigs RAM / hardware RAID card & 4 one terabyte HDs + 23 inch Apple display) for $6k as my main music server and sprinkle around 2-3 Apple TVs or equivalent for another $1 - 2k. This approach I've spent less money and have a kickass loaded music server that will stream all over my house with a world class UI. Seems to me HDX will have a pretty steep hill to climb. It will be interesting to see how it fares in the US

Nick

quote:

YOU are entirely correct - £4,500 for the HDX.

Possibly Mr 555 had added on an amount for the SuperNait.

Yes; AndrewK7 said he wanted HDX + SuperNait.

Hi Kuma,

I have read the setup is two 400GB discs.

As you add/delete/update from the main drive it is copied onto the 'backup' disc.

If one disc fails you would replace the failed disc and it would rebuild the data on it from the functioning HDD.

All reasonable points -

Jack-of-all-trades: Well it's pie in the sky stuff anyway ---> As I'm wishing for the impossible I might as well wish for it sounding good with them all, how about to 555 standard!

Naim's Approach:

In THEORY I like having the controllability, in reality I find the whole thing a pain! So Naim may have got it right ....but in a world where computer storage is expanding so rapidly their offerings may look quickly dated.

Problem is that when step changes occur in storage capacities they bring in a new hardware standard - makes it difficult for Naim to provide a seamless upgrade path.

M

Maybe I'm missing something here - or just getting old and not keeping up with technology (or losing the will to....upgrade).

When I got my first digital camera, only 4 years ago, I merrily loaded all my pix onto my PC's hard drive. Then someone said you really should back them up to ... CD. So I did. And of course photo CDs are great - play them instantly on other gear around the house, lend them to friends, post them to foreign parts etc.

Now we're told that, instead of keeping our music on factory-mastered CDs, we should load them to a ... hard drive. So then I should lug my HDX round to my friends houses? Or make some messy link with the PC in the office?

Can't help feeling it's all a bit arse over thingy.

Hi Rupert,

From my POV this technology allows me to listen to:

My archive vinyl files - stored as 96/24 wav; and
Recordings I make at 96/24.

Although I can burn them to DVD at this quality most DVD players will only output a lobotomised quality via the spdif.

Also,

There MAY be benefits in sound quality. For instance, IF NAIM load the HDX with a reasonable amount of RAM they could read a whole file into memory - and perhaps sidestep a lot of issues to do with physical devices; no doubt introducing a plethora of new issues!

M

Details here .

quote:

...it'll play DVD-Audio, and formats it handles includes AAF, FLAC, wma, wav, AAC (m4a only), and mp3.

Needs confirmation.

And

quote:

i simply love this unit [...] especially wireless use

I'll wait for the one that takes vinyl. If Naim devise a neat solution for recording and separating tracks while ripping from the vinyl, I could be persuaded.

I am assured by one who has had an extended listen to the HDX that it is NEARLY up to CDX2 standards, so I don't expect to see a flood of CDS3s on the s/h market.

Considering the amp & LS Naim recommend to partner HDX that makes perfect sense.

It'll be interesting to hear what increase in sonic performance a 555PS for HDX produces.

It seems like the Naimnet product line has been shape shift over the last year.

The original brochure referred to the Reference player as having a combined Hard Disk / Power supply unit. I remember being disappointed at the time, as IMHO the smart commercial move would have been to allow Naim customers to recycle their CDX / CDS power supplies.

The HDX now seems to be taking exactly this approach - which, if so, I think is VERY smart. Hence, I can now safely consider a PS555 upgrade for my CDS2 - safe the knowledge that when I move to a HDD based headend as my primary source, the investment in power supply is preserved.

In terms of absolute sound quality - I have no doubt that Naim can currently build an HDD based system that conformably outperforms the 555. One only needs to look at the forum threads concerning the Bendini clarifier to demonstrate how flawed CD is as a medium. Getting stunning results from byte-copy perfect data from hard disk should be much easier.

Interesting times.

I personally am curious to hear the HDx and to see what all of its features are, but I am in agreement that I will need to wait for a much lower priced machine in the Naim line-up. For now I'm really happy with my Windows Home Server which not only is my NAS with 750gb storage (raid,music,photos,computer backup, web hosting, and internet access to my home computers when necessary for $700). It's hooked up to my APC back-up as well which is a requirement for any server device. I really want to devote my money to the sound quality. It just seems that the I just don't get all of this in one box and what the advantages are over this as opposed to having the Cd's ripped to my own server using Naim's ripping software, the way in which this is done by Linn via EAC. You'd get the accurracy which Naim has developed or borrowed, larger storage capacity with basically unlimited Storage increase via USB attached NAS to the WHS and inexpensive replacement if there is a problem. The way in which my system is set-up I don't need the local computer on to have access to my NAS/ethernet connected music via Sonos at the current time. My server is always on in the central basement location where my Home automation equipment is located. The software on the PC or handheld device would be perfect, but again questions of User Interface and Access. Furthermore the Netstreams products are pricey (Digilinx/Medialinx) and Sonos/SB perform these features for a fraction of the price. Again as I posted earlier I'm more than happy to use these into a DAC for internet radio/rhapsody, but want the capability for the high quality downloads via subscription Linn/Naim etc.. to go directly to the DAC and bypass Sonos/SB.

Just looks like a glorified PC, I wonder what OS is used?

quote:

Originally posted by sector51:
I'm also very interested in the ambient noise level of the HDX.

I can't imagine it would be any worse than the buzz from my HiCap and 250-2 but then again they are quite loud.

quote:

Originally posted by Sean Woods:
Just looks like a glorified PC, I wonder what OS is used?

The real test will be whether it plays music like a glorified computer!

The trying of this particular cake is well anticipated here.

George

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:
Back when I was ripping all my CDs, I realised that how the files are ripped made a huge difference. My geek friends tried different settings and they all had their favourites. ( good to unbelievably bad from the same CD )

The fact that Naim did the home work and figured out the right setting saves me time and leave me more time to listen rather than endlessly futzing with the hardware.

Kuma

With all of the different settings available who is to say that Naims settings are the right ones? Have you heard the Klimax DS? Linns settings with EAC and Ripstation software sounded pretty good to me. There user interface, on the other hand, needs to be completely reworked.

The interesting thing with all of the settings is that they all yield different files sizes (when ripped to FLAC) however all the different files, when converted back to .wav (or AIFF on a Mac), all result back in the exact same file size.

Gregg

correction: WHS 1.5TB for $700 and the USB attached storage can be either storage or additional raid back-up for the server back-up. Leaves me $9000 to spend on audio equipment.

quote:

Originally posted by Sean Woods:
Just looks like a glorified PC, I wonder what OS is used?

Doesn't sound like one, quite the opposite actually.

quote:

Originally posted by sector51:

400gig is a joke given the minimal price difference at wholesale for 750gig or 1 Terabyte. This makes no sense to me, especially at what US retail will be. Oh yeah, the "just use NAS or add an external drive " is not a good answer.
Nick

This is SO TRUE!!! 400 is really short sighted. For a cutting edge product, at a cutting edge price, the largest available hard drive should be used - the difference in cost is less than the cost of a bag of peanuts.


There also needs to be an easy way for the user (which I would prefer rather than the dealer) to swap out defective hard drives - because they WILL fail at a certain point in time. Larger capacities will also be available - and one should be able to take advantage of this.

Gregg

So this in NOT the NS03? This seems to have more functionality then a NS03 is/was? going to have?

I wonder if its necessary to even use the internal hard drives? All my music is on a two TB RAID NAS (backed up onto several DVD-roms) and I like it there. Seems like having the hard drives in the Naim box will just create jitter or noise. So the question I have, is the operating system of the HDX on one of the disk drives or is it on a SSD flash drive? IF on a separate SSD, can you stop the internal hard drives? This also begs the question of how swappable are the hard drives and can it be done by the user? hard drives fail!

You see I have this rack and all these little Netstream boxes humming away. The problem is that there is a gaping black hole in my server rack.....

My understanding is that the HD selection was not easy and is a compromise between storage and the noise generated by the disc spinning and / or the fan noise that might be generated to prevent over-heating. I think that's what the designer (Gary) told me.

This is not a PC where you just tolerate the fans kicking in as and when the processor struggles to cope. You can stream from an external server, what's the big deal? As far as I am concerned, 400 GB is enough for me if that represents the best compromise between form and function. Over time I am sure the HD will become available as quieter and cooler units, but this is what there is today.

I went wanting to see and hear the HDX, but was not prepared for how good it was.

Huw

Is it correct that this will cost £4,500?

p.s. having read some of the thread it seems so.

quote:

Also waiting for NaimUSA to discuss the recommended voltage regulation/UPS choices (ie Furman, Panamax, APC) for the HDX - imo and experience an absolute requirement for any AV device that has internal hard drives. Ask any custome installer these days if they will sell a DVR or music server without REALLY stressing to their customer the necessity for such protection.

In speaking with our CI channel partners and sales reps, we have decided to leave these recommendations up the the discretion of the experienced installer, within the context of other electrical requirements for an installation.

It is commonly-accepted wisdom within the CI channel that plasma displays ABSOLUTELY benefit from and require a dedicated circuit with a proper UPS to protect the panel drive electronics; likewise, it would be exceptionally difficult to argue against a UPS for network-attached storage devices.

Naim servers (including the HDX player) use a separate switching power supply for the computer hardware within (low-power mainboard, hard-disk drives, DVD drive), which will of course drop voltage pretty quickly during a brown- or blackout–installation of a basic UPS for server products (in which the emphasis is on network performance, not local-zone output sound quality) is fairly simple to implement and does not require an imprimatur for the average, smart CI installer.

For those who might be concerned that a UPS might affect the sound quality of the local zone output, the HDX player, when used with an XPS2 or 555PS for the analog circuits and a UPS for the computing electronics, offers the best performance and reliability–as such, we will not be auditioning power conditioning devices on the basis on sound quality.

It could be argued that a dedicated circuit for the UPS might benefit in this regard, but it is far too early in the game to discuss.

quote:

I'm with AllenB as far as HD size is concerned. 400gig is a joke given the minimal price difference at wholesale for 750gig or 1 Terabyte. This makes no sense to me, especially at what US retail will be. Oh yeah, the "just use NAS or add an external drive " is not a good answer.

I've changed or upgraded notebook drives on every (Mac) laptop I've owned–no amount of storage is ever large enough, and is a non-issue for a networked product. It is definitely an issue for a portable product–but, as with a high-performance laptop, one must balance the need for more storage with acoustic and thermal constraints, especially given the context in which a source component will be used.

A high-performance installation will probably incorporate network-attached storage (with battery backup) in a remote closet as per any other, sensible, IT setup–frankly, I find 1 TB too small, once you start adding whole albums at 88.2 or 96/24....

quote:

You see I have this rack and all these little Netstream boxes humming away. The problem is that there is a gaping black hole in my server rack....

Give me a call when you get a chance–I'll fill you in!

I'd prefer that Naim not waste their time there, myself, as that area of the market can be far more easily and adroitly addressed behind the curtain, so to speak.

As for removal of the drives reducing the thermal requirements–you still have power supplies and a mainboard to worry about–the second drive only spins up when required.